Talk:Lame Horse fire

Infobox
I used Template:Infobox civilian attack even though this was not a terrorist attack. It doesn't really matter in the way it appears in the article, and I don't think there's any equally good infobox for accidents. Lampman (talk) 02:50, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Disaster Management project page suggests Infobox News event, which might work. Daniel Case (talk) 04:52, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure that most articles with such a template should be deleted / moved to Wikinews. SIGH.  JBsupreme (talk) 07:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Duplicate article
2009 Perm nightclub fire also exists. I propose we merge it into this article. User:Marek69. 07:14, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

WIKINEWS
this should be in Wikinews as well.

WIKINEWS
this should be in Wikinews as well.211.30.153.245 (talk) 11:14, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Photos
In Russian language the article contains many photos with the tragedy. I don't if it's part of Wikimedia Commons, but this article need at least one photo to increase the quality. TouLouse (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed now. Those photos are under free license and could be transferred to Commons, but not all of them are illustrative IMHO. Brand[t] 21:08, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

What type of firework?
The intro says it was likely an unsanctioned outdoor firework, while the body indicates it was a malfunctioning indoor firework. Is their any consensus on which is more correct? Radagast (talk) 22:51, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

It was outdoor firework clearly labelled in Russian "not to be used indoors". At least that what Mr. Putin said ;)

Egh0st (talk) 13:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Timing
I would suggest to remove unnecessary timings from the infobox. The only correct timing seems to be roughly 23:30 MSK which is 01:30 YEKT. Egh0st (talk) 11:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a news article
This is important for a newspaper. This absolutely DOES NOT belong in an encyclopedia. SIGH. JBsupreme (talk) 07:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Fire Safety terms
Just to clear up possible confusion -- I think UK term is better suited for Russian equivalent. I.e. Fire Safety Inspector or Officer. In Russia, they belong to an Authority called Госпожнадзор roughly translated into English as State Fire Safety Supervising Authority. It is subordinate to EMERCOM (thus EMERCOM was able to dismiss top executives of the Local Fire Safety Authority). Egh0st (talk) 13:12, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Toll
Death toll is currently mentioned four times in the article. That is a bit of nightmare to edit it every time, with all references etc frequently becoming orphaned or not providing refs for other info (as articles which reports more casualties often are used to provide refs to number of treated victims etc).

I'd suggest leaving one in navbox, one (that is more than ...) in the article entry, and one in "the fire". Egh0st (talk) 11:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree, our friend AnomieBOT will rescue "orphaned refs" (also from other articles) so no need to worry there. —  Mariah-Yulia  • Talk to me!  13:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The article stated that 130 people perished and 160 people were injured, but only 282 people were present - so where did the remaining eight come from then? Rubycored (talk) 08:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi there Rubycored. Well, the thing is that the initial death toll was not that high. It was in the vicinity of 95 in first reports and the rest were either injured or very few left the club uninjured. Within the few days, many of the injured died at the hospitals. Hence the discrepancy in the mathematical comparison of numbers. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yop. 94 was the only exact number that I've seen in the media reports (i.e. deaths at the scene). Some died upon admittance to hospitals, some in the following days. I'll leave that number in the article for now until full reports are published (or anyone finds a more justified number). Many died in hospitals because of the toxic fumes (burning plastic) and smoke inhalation. Don't think it was just fire per se, in fact the fire was relatively small, most victims who died in hospitals were those who actually remained in the club during the fire (mostly collapsed due to smoke/fumes inhalation). Those who were able to run out on their own were pretty much alright.--Egh0st (talk) 21:12, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Only 282 were visitors (probably according to number of sold tickets), this number doesn't include the club's personnel, unregistered guests and invited performers. In the sum there were around 300 people or more. And only several tens were happy to escape from the burning club relatively safely.--91.78.211.57 (talk) 20:11, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 282 is close to the total number. Some initial reports indicated 234 tickets sold. But, things are much more complicated because many employees of the club were not even registered as employees (i.e. job for cash). And since it was club anniversary they all were present + had friends invited.Egh0st (talk) 21:12, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Additional information
Additional information can be found in the blog of Governor of Perm District Oleg Chirkunov:. ellol (talk) 14:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Verifications
Words in bold are either internal article conflicts or taken from older sources, and some newer sources provide somewhat different information.

VS
 * The fire started when sparks from fireworks ignited the low ceiling and its willow twig covering.
 * Ignition occurred when a performance artist threw cold-flame pyrotechnics into the air.

VS
 * The fire started when sparks from fireworks ignited the low ceiling and its willow twig covering. 
 * The fireworks sparks hit ignited the plastic covering of the ceiling.

Also:


 * As the crowd began to calmly exit the building, the wooden decorations on the interior walls of the club ignited, and the building filled with smoke.

Also, I'd say that first witness report is rather unreliable in some details, so some more are needed. Egh0st (talk) 19:57, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I think the precise data is pending the outcome of the investigation. This confusion is always the case in the first days if not weeks of big scale disasters. Let's hope that the Emergency Situations Ministry provides that specific data on its website soon Tuscumbia (talk)20:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed in the sense that it is easier to wait for official investigation reports. But even initial findings already show enough info to invalidate some earlier claims.
 * E.g. willow twigs have nothing to do with fire, it was plastic ceiling AND the polystyrene foam used for sound insulation in the ceiling (and walls). Toxic smoke is the main culprit of such death toll, plus some media reports suggest that many burned victims are due to burning foam as well (if you burn such foam part of it melts and dips down, and it is very hot and sticky, almost like napalm). Also no performance artist tossing fireworks involved -- apparently there were some fireworks installations which ignited as programmed at the end of the song (reported as "We will rock you" by some witnesses). I don't think that final reports will be much different to the initial ones which have been published already (in Russian).
 * Egh0st (talk) 20:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Infobox map
For the benefit of an overwhelmingly Anglophone readership, surely a map showing Perm's location within Russia would be far more informative and useful than one showing the club's location within Perm? Draggleduck (talk) 08:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the map from the Infobox. It wasn't needed there: the location is given as Leninsky City District, Perm, Perm Krai, Russia so one can get details and maps in respective articles. DesbWit 04:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DesbWit (talk • contribs)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ozone Disco fire which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 01:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)