Talk:Lan Xang

Re-write with Sources
The entry lacks detail for the middle years of Lan Xang and doesn't place Khun Borom myth within context. I'll add some new sections to build out based on the available English language sources. Thanks--StampyElephant (talk) 01:12, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Etymology
It seems obvious that the name Lan Xang is derived from a former pronunciation of 萬象 in some Sinitic language.

While I don't know whether this is the actual etymology confirmed by scientific means, or whether it is a popular etymology, I think it should be mentioned in the article either way. Please add information if you know more about this. Wikipeditor 00:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thinking about it, perhaps it is the other way round and the Chinese 象 comes from a South East Asian word, and lan may be totally unrelated to 萬. Wikipeditor 18:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I’m removing the reference since it’s unclear what relationship there is (if any) between ລ້ານຊ້າງ and 萬象. At the moment it implies the term is derived from Chinese which seems unlikely.  If anyone has something more concrete to add, here’s what I’m removing...


 * , from Sinitic 萬象 "vast number of elephants"


 * ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 16:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I read your 10 May 2008 Talk:Lan_Xang comment, and indeed the numeral lan can also mean 'vast' or 'huge.' especially in Isan. To Rocket Festival in Yasothon, I added this that has yet to be challenged: Bang Fai come in various sizes, competing in several categories. Small ones are called Bang Fai Noi (Thai: น้อย). Larger categories are designated by the counting words for 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000: Meun (Thai: หมื่น) "Saen" (Thai: แสน) and the largest Bang Fai, the Lan (Thai: ล้าน). These counting words see use in many contexts to indicate increasing size or value. Lan in this context may be taken to mean extremely large as well as extremely expensive and extremely dangerous: Bang Fai Lan are nine metres long and charged with 120 kg of black powder. They haven't any since 1999. when one exploded, killing 11 and injuring more, and exposing Isan to ridicule. Isan Redshirts were also ridiculed for staging a "Million Man March" in Bangkok during the 2010 Thai political protests, when only huge numbers showed up. Lanna of the Million Fields was clearly playing one-up-man-ship with Sibsongphanna of a mere 12,000, Fah Ngum's son, when he changed his name to Samsenthai (300,000 thai, to spite "Sipsong Chu (Chao) Thaij" the "Twelve Thai Chiefs. Huh! Huh (god) hieroglyph also represents one million, or infinity, and he is the 'god of millions of years.'

As for the elephants, romanization "Xang" indicates a Thai etymology, and has been changed to "Sang."&mdash;Pawyilee (talk) 10:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Statements needing clarification

 * Muang Sua was the first kingdom established by the Tai in Khmer territory.

The Muang Sua article seems to imply it was taken from the king of Nanzhao, not the Khmer.


 * The next six years (1362-68), however, were troubled by religious conflict between Fa Ngum's lamaistic Buddhism and the region's traditional Theravada Buddhism. He severely repressed popular agitation that had anti-Mongol overtones and had many pagodas torn down.

"Lamaistic" sounds like a dubious term for Mahayana. The Fa Ngum article simply concludes...


 * Fa Ngum introduced Theravada Buddhism into the area.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 18:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Revert: 10:21, 25 June 2008
Before making a drastic change to the text that conflicts with the primary source, please provide some sources yourself. Logging in might be nice too. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 00:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Reverting anon edit of 1 November 2009
Someone added this to the References section on 1 November. 17 days later, someone else made some minor fixes. But clearly it's completely unencyclopedic, and needs to be removed, so I'm doing that. Here's the removed content:


 * The one from Wiki about Lan Xang is more like a siamese propaganda version. There are so many mistakes in the article.
 * 1/ In 1359 the Khmer king gave the Pra Bang to his son-in-law, the first Lan Xang monarch Fa Ngum (1353-1373). His Khmer wife was instrumental in welcoming a religious and artistic mission that brought with it a statue of the Buddha, the Phra Bang,  Not his Ayutthaya wife. In 1368 Fa Ngum's Khmer wife died.
 * 2/ Oun Heuan Fah Ngum's son, Half Khmer/Lao changed his name to Samsenthai (300 thousands thai), Samsenthai never paid tribune to Ayuttaya.  Laos lanxang was in its strongest period.    300 years later when Lanxang was in declined, that when tribune started.
 * 3/ True, that The kingdom, made up of Lao, Thai, and various ethnic hill tribes, lasted in its approximate borders for another 300 years and briefly reached an even greater extent in the northwest.
 * 4/ True, Fa Ngum's descendants remained on the throne at Luang Prabang for almost 600 years after his death, maintaining the independence of Lan Xang to the end of the 17th century through a complex network of vassal relations with lesser princes. At the same time, these rulers fought off invasions from Vietnam (1478-79), Siam (1536), and Burma (1571-1621).
 * 3/ True, that The kingdom, made up of Lao, Thai, and various ethnic hill tribes, lasted in its approximate borders for another 300 years and briefly reached an even greater extent in the northwest.
 * 4/ True, Fa Ngum's descendants remained on the throne at Luang Prabang for almost 600 years after his death, maintaining the independence of Lan Xang to the end of the 17th century through a complex network of vassal relations with lesser princes. At the same time, these rulers fought off invasions from Vietnam (1478-79), Siam (1536), and Burma (1571-1621).
 * 4/ True, Fa Ngum's descendants remained on the throne at Luang Prabang for almost 600 years after his death, maintaining the independence of Lan Xang to the end of the 17th century through a complex network of vassal relations with lesser princes. At the same time, these rulers fought off invasions from Vietnam (1478-79), Siam (1536), and Burma (1571-1621).
 * 4/ True, Fa Ngum's descendants remained on the throne at Luang Prabang for almost 600 years after his death, maintaining the independence of Lan Xang to the end of the 17th century through a complex network of vassal relations with lesser princes. At the same time, these rulers fought off invasions from Vietnam (1478-79), Siam (1536), and Burma (1571-1621).

Some of the editor's points seem valid, and someone with more knowledge should make an effort to find citations and improve the article accordingly. But adding an argument against the wikipedia article to the References section of the article is obviously not the way to do it. --99.50.122.183 (talk) 14:02, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Alternative transliterations Lan Sang and Lane Sang derive from rules for romanization of Lao:
Consider moving paragraph on rules for romanization from lede to Notes section of McCarthy's account. --Pawyilee (talk) 15:52, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Edited and moved to ref group="note". --Pawyilee (talk) 12:45, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Romanization of Lang Xang
Lan Xang's present hatnote, lede [note 1] and McCarthy's account notes section need attention. These are the best I can do, and they include a link to romanization of Lao, though romanization of Lao immediately above the table might be better.

Both HN and McC [notes] have links to Lan Sang National Park, for dictionary definitions of "Lan" as used in the park and by McCarthy's Siamese commissioner. He defined his as "plain." I have no idea what it means in the park, but at Yasothon's Lan Nanaphan it once meant "plaza" and now means parking garage with adjacent shops and eats. Given the definitions for "Lan" as a linguistic modifier, the commissioner could have intended a deliberate insult.

Given the multiple definitions for the park's completely different word "Sang," you'd have to ask the one who named it what he had in mind. The commissioner did specify elephants, though not the animal but landscape features. Romanization of Lan Xang, BTW, uses differing standards: Lan per LC/RTGS and Xang per BGN/PCGN. I prefer it that way, as Lane would satisfy only sticklers for its French origin, and X seems to preserve Thai etymology (despite the Lao king's objection.) I infer the Lao once had no elephants, and adopted the Thai term with their own pronunciation, yet preserving the Thai tone. Other readers may infer the same if we leave it like it is.

X in Romanization of Lao links to the new X, where Talk:X lists all the X's I've found so far. I'd like to add [note 1] to a Notes section for all of them. &mdash;Pawyilee (talk) 03:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

&mdash; edited Pawyilee (talk) 05:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Religious conflict
Buddhism in Vietnam, both present-day and ancient, is very different from that of the rest of Southeast Asian Theravada Buddhism. The type of Buddhism the article says that King Fa Ngum introduced resembles that of the Vietnamese, while that to which he was exposed in the Khmer empire of his time was in the throes of adopting Theravada after a period of Shivaism, either in its pure Hindu form, or amalgamated with Buddhism. There certainly was a religious conflict in Lan Xang as there was ib the peninsula in general, but it likely involved throwing off Vietnamese red robes for saffron. --Pawyilee (talk) 14:32, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation hatnote for similar pronounciations removed
Why was this removed? —Pawyilee (talk) 05:16, 5 June 2014 (UTC)