Talk:Lance

disambiguation page?
"Generally, a spear which is not thrown is called a lance" That is new to me. Can anybody provide evidence that this is the case. To my mind, the term lance is reserved for spears that are primarily used in a charging attack, usually from horse back as in Jousting or carried by a Lancer of necessity, a lance is generally long. A spear used in regular melee combat is just that: a spear whereas a thowing spear is a Javelin. Gaius Cornelius 10:35, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

A lance has to be long as well-a hoplite at Platea didn't have a lance, although he charged, he had a spear Samrsharma 20:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Changed the refference to the charge of the light brigade to include the word "ultimately" since the charge itself achieved the capture of the gun emplacement, but the brigade was unable to hold the position (the heavy brigade did not come to its support) and was "ultimately" unsuccessful. Robinivich 12:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Pole Vaulting?
This article needs some discussion and tightening up; the idea that Stirrups wre instrumental in the development and use of the Cavalry Lance, for instance, has long been discredited. References to Fantasy films should similarly be removed, especially ones showing Massed Cavalry charging into a Spear wall.


 * I have noticed that this article has undergone some alterations, which are, in my opinion, great improvements. Thanks to whoever implemented the changes. However, I think there is still room for substantial improvement. --M.J.Stanham 11:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Formation
I see that some of the old Lance(formation) has been moved over here prior to this former's remouval. The information itself on the formation that was perserved is quite small if somewhat out of the blue and isolated from the other medieval formations. Searching for the formation I foudn the Lances fournies and thought this the evolution of the earlier Lance(formation), therefore I sought to complete the article as Lance Formation not just the later provided Lance formation. I would like to point you to this article and its discussions for the future of the Lance as a formation, either to mix it all under the weapon or to keep it divided as two seperate articles. Dryzen 15:12, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Fixable Stuff
The Kopia, though listed as a lance, is apparently a formation of lancers. Somebody should probably remove it. . . --Anonymous

Same anonymous here again. The link for Sangu goes to the disambiguation page, and apparently there is no main page. Either somebody should write one, or the link should be removed.

And again. Either the page sudis (stake) is wrong, or the sudis isn't a weapon. Could somebody do research to find out which is true?

And either the page taru links to is wrong, or Taru is the name of a god, not a weapon. Again, research is needed.

Vandalism
There's been vandalism in the lead sentence of the last article of the "History" section. I don't know what goes there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Glasperlenspiel (talk • contribs) 20:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

The sentence about John-curlyburns-etc. and his spears of pumpernickel appears to be nonsense, and I am about to remove it. J S Ayer (talk) 03:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Usefulness in Melee?
Statement that lances were not useful in melee due to being too long and bulky has no citation. Is this really true? I've heard the opposite, and it seems silly to have a weapon that only gets used once in battle. Knight charges and then gets cut to ribbons by everyone other than the guy he impaled as he secures (or just drops?) his lance and draws his sword. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.109.46.7 (talk) 13:42, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * a lance is extremly heavy and is desinged to be used on horseback so would be pretty usless to a foot soldier. rdunn  PLIB  13:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * When used by foot soldiers, the lance is called a pike or a spear. Absolutely not useless until it became outclassed by musketry around 1700. Geira (talk) 12:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "Lance" can be used to refer to a variety of weapons. Most lances are quite similar to spears, and can definitely be used for thrusting. It is only the Great Lance that is specifically only for "couching" on horseback. The rest can definitely be used in melee, or in close-quarters on horseback. AlhazenH 22:06, 26 February 2017 (GMT)

Lances used by cuirassiers
The claim that cuirassiers used lances is unsubstantiated and unfounded. True, mediaeval armored knights used lances, but the term cuirassier is much later. During the 1500s armored heavy cavalry mostly used pistols, but Gustavus Adolphus started using them as sword-armed shock cavalry, a trend which became universal up to WWI. Geira (talk) 12:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Bayeux Tapestry accuracy?
The illustration from the Bayeux Tapestry is cited as showing how lances were used (notice the overhand grip), but the women who made the tapestry had, as far as I know, not seen the actual battles and were perhaps not accurate in the way they portrayed the fighting techniques? Also, if the weapons were in fact used like that, perhaps they should be called spears instead, as a lance is, as I understand it, a weapon that is couched and used as part of a charge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.81.40.95 (talk • contribs) 17:46, 14 February 2011

Bayeux Tapestry javalins
There is one theorie that Norman cavalry at the time of the battle of Hastings engaged the enemy by riding towards the enemy's line and from close range threw javalins at them. Although i do not know of any proof at this besides the Bayeux Tapestry and the way the Normans held their shields.

In the Bayeux Tapestry they hold their spears overhanded. This is a very ineffective way of thrustings because you have to hold the spear rougly in the middle where the balance is and so reducing the range of your attacks. Also thrusting in front of you is almost impossible because the only attacking motion possible is a downward thrust. So either the Bayeux Tapestry depicts the cavalry incorrectly or they didn't use their spears in a thrusting motion but threw them like a javalin.

Also the long shields norman cavalry carried at that time are always held at an 45° angle at the side. If you ride towards the enemy, throw a Javalin and make a right turn the shield at an angle not only protects your side from but also the flank of your horse which is really vurnrable at that moment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.73.173.49 (talk) 20:38, 27 May 2011 (UTC) '''--500jbl (talk) 01:14, 19 March 2013 (UTC)Lance '''
 * Almost certainly, the Bayeux Tapestry does show cavalry throwing spears (perhaps javelins). But the overarm thrust was still a standard method of spear use for cavalry at this time - the couched lance technique was just evolving - so many knights can be seen as holding their lances for an overarm blowMonstrelet (talk) 07:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Images
I propose a better image for the lead would be something like Franz Skarbina Pikenier.jpg. Additionally, Ulani RB3.jpg was included in a previous version, although I've not tracked its origins. -- Trevj (talk · contribs) 09:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The Franz Skarbina image is a modern reconstruction of a 17th infantry pikeman, so doesn't really fit here. The modern cavalry with lance in smaller size might fit in the section about decline and ceremonial use, though Monstrelet (talk) 17:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Etymology, OED and Varro
I've been seeing some citations on lancea originating from celtiberian backed either by Varro (on Celtiberians) or by the OED (on this page, as well as Lancea), but the former does not cite where Varro reported such a claim, and the later Isuspect not only would help back the former, but also add more information than is presented here, butwould of course require a paid subscription to check and verify. I'm still on the lookout for alternative sources, but if someone with a subscription could check that'd be wuite helpful. 78.30.26.29 (talk) 09:33, 24 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The OED just says "According to Varro the Latin word was from a Spanish (? Iberian) source. Connection with the synonymous Greek λόγχη is phonologically improbable." Just a note on OED subscriptions - many public and university libraries hold subscriptions and sign in is by library card number.  I'll see if I can find the Varro thing - maybe on Perseus. Monstrelet (talk) 14:12, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Trickier than expected but the Varro attribution comes from Antiquitates rerum humanarum et divinarum, a lost work. He derives it from the city of Lancia in Lusitania. Fortunately, it was referenced by Aulus Gellius thus Id scriptum est in libro M. Varronis quarto decimo Rerum Divinarum,quo in loco Varro, cum de petorrito dixisset, esse id verbum Gallicum, lanceam quoque dixit non Latinum, sed Hispanicum verbum esse

Unfortunately, the academic reference for this I've dug up is in Spanish. Martín Almagro-Gorbea Lancea, palabra lusitana,y la etnogénesis de los Lancienses(Lancea, Lusitanian Word, and the Lancienses Ethnogenesis) 2016.--Monstrelet (talk) 16:40, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

First Picture
The last sentence on the first picture is pretty questionable. Sure it describes what is seen in the graphic, but as a whole, this is generally not how they were wielded from my understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.178.95.246 (talk) 00:53, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * See earlier discussion under "Bayeux Tapestry javalins" above. Buistr (talk) 01:16, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

"Nagayari" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Nagayari and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 3 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 05:42, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

photo of an entire lance
the article has several photos of lance heads, which are interesting and worthwhile, but they aren't the whole lance. should there, additionally, be a picture of a lance in its enrirety? is there a reason why this shouldn't happen or why available images aren't suitable? Nyuuposting (talk) 13:58, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

History
It would be good if some qualified individual could add some information about earlier use of lances. They go back at least to the time of Alexander. B.Bryant (talk) 12:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)