Talk:Lance Bass/Archive02

Homosexual Tag
Why do people keep deleting "homosexual" from the opening paragraph of Lance's article? Is this a bit of Wikipedia article form that I'm not aware of? Are we not meant to mention his sexual orientation when first explaining who he is? I also noticed (in another article entirely) a member removing the subject's ethnicity from that section? Just curious/ what's the objection with those bits of information in the opening section? -FateSmiled&amp;DestinyLaughed 12:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I was wondering the same thing. I couldn't find a violation of wiki posting guidelines. Its seems the people making the edits are homophobic. They have been repeatedly requested to use the talk page. They refuse. Yet, they allow a picture of a magazine cover with his picture and "GAY" written in large bold letters. Do they believe the term "homosexual" is incorrect? Do they not realize that he is a homosexual american singer? Does anyone have evidence to disprove this point? Unless they do, it should remain in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.101.9 (talk • contribs)
 * How about we add "gay" as a descriptor after all other popular singers are listed on Wikipedia by their sexuality: James Brown is a straight American singer, Kid Rock is a straight American singer, etc. Singling out gay people to label by their sexuality is POV. Jokestress 18:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no reason to delete the term "homosexual." It is proper. Please stop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cliesthenes (talk • contribs)
 * Firstly, it's not appropriate to speculate about the motives of other editors or cast aspersions on them. Focus on the content, not the contributor, and avoid personal attacks.
 * Secondly, proof is not needed to "disprove" a claim before a claim can be removed. Proof is needed to support a claim before it can be included.
 * Thirdly, Jokestress is right. Being gay is neither more nor less important than being straight; there is nothing notable about reporting which minorities a person belongs to if those minorities are not important or notable in that person's public life.  For instance, it is appropriate to report Ellen DeGeneres's lesbianism; she is a famous lesbian icon.  Lance Bass's gayness is not really worth mentioning.  In general, I think poorly of the trend to categorize and label every person on WP by whatever minorities they may be a member of.  The notability guideline applies to all information here.  Kasreyn 01:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Taking the Ellen DeGeneres example above, please note that article does not label her by sexuality in the opening sentence. Jokestress 01:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it does. Homophobic people like you keep deleting it. It is a valid descriptor. Stop deleting it unless you can cite evidence it is incorrect, or a violation of wiki guidelines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.117.9 (talk • contribs)
 * Please refer to WP:NPA. It is unproductive and uncivil to speculate on another editor's motivations.  Kasreyn 02:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It does (or did), because you just added it! Good faith cannot be assumed when it is not practiced.  See WP:AGF.  -- Dcflyer 11:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

When I started this discussion I was just curious. Personally, I don't care whether Lance's sexuality is mentioned in the first lines of his article. But, for those of you who do, I'll say this. First of all, please stop asserting that Jokestress is homophobic. After some thought I agree, it is POV to add his sexuality. Secondly, it's already mentioned in the article. In the interest of harmony, maybe all of you could agree to put this one to bed. -FateSmiled&amp;DestinyLaughed 12:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Heart-warming
So sweet to see a picture of one of 'N Sync's former member like this: Image:Basslancepeoplecover.jpg :DDD So delightful, I even cry because of it. "Weird Al" Yankovic was right (hail the king!), you'll see, sooner or later all come out :DDDDDDDDDDD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.56.80.135 (talk • contribs)

Notability for coming out
Bass' sexuality is clearly discussed in the applicable section of the article. His notability is tied into his participation with 'N Sync-not for his coming out. Therefore inclusion in the lead section of him being "notable" for coming out is silly. Unlike Ellen Degeneres or David Kopay, Bass' coming out was not groundbreaking. I am removing the line in the lead section. I do not recommend re-adding it unless a sufficient source can be cited to show Lance Bass's notability affected due to him coming out. If anything can be cited (like an increase or decrease in marketability perhaps) then it would be appropriate for the lead section otherwise discussion of his sexuality should stay in the "Sexuality Section". Agne 20:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Read the article, the basis is there.Furthermore, wikipedia polcies for biographies states inclusion in the openning is proper.Cliesthenes 20:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

You have not provided a reference that he is known for coming out or that his notability is in anyway tied to his coming out. As WP:1SP notes about Lead sections that they should establish significance. You have not established the signifigance of his coming out. Was it groundbreaking? Did it substantially affect his notability? As it stands, your assertation that he is "known for coming out" is WP:OR and inclusion in the lead section is improper. Please provide a source to eliminate the original research. Agne 21:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
I've noticed every now and then someone would come along and replacing and/or adding negative comments and words regarding Lance's sexuality. Is it possible to put this page on semi-protection?Yajaec 22:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, more vandalism happened over the weekend, do I really need to suggest at least a semi-protection again? I think since he came out the closet recently, I think it's better to keep the page semi-protected, at least till the "big headline" die down a bit.Yajaec 15:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Though the vandalism is happening, it is getting reverted in the same minute in most cases. Protection and semi-protection are best used sparingly. It's a shame this is getting vandalized, but I don't feel it has risen to the level of requiring protection. The bots catch most of it immediately, since it has a pretty predictable pattern. It's more important that we keep the project as open as possible, which is the reason it has grown so quickly. Jokestress 16:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Alrighty then, good timesYajaec 16:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Is there any way to suggest semi-protection again? The vandalism that's happening to this page is really ridiculous. --MgCupcake 23:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The trouble is, the vandalism is coming from registered users as well as anonymous IPs, so I don't think semi-protect would work. I think the only solution is full protect, but then almost no one could edit. Not sure what the solution is... :( -Ebyabe 00:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Just going to interject here... it is true that anonymous IPs are accounting for some vandalism, but if you look in the article's history at least 50% of the vandalism is coming from registered users. Semi-protection would do nothing but benefit this page, as even if it does not stop all of the vandalism, it would greatly reduce it... also, the large majority of the editing done to this page is done by registered and established users. I think it's safe to say that this page DOES get vandalized more than most. So I too would suggest going for the semi-protect again. --Lonely Sound 04:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Full name and place of birth
Is he really James Lansten, born in Laurel, Mississippi ?

Derek R Bullamore 00:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation?
Is the correct pronunciation of Bass as in the fish or the instrument/voice? Might this information be a useful addition to the article? OMHalck 19:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * His last name is pronounced like the fish; I've added this info to the Early life section of the article, along with a source citation. Thanks for the suggestion. --Adavidb 04:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info. --OMHalck 07:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"Gay" as primary adjective
Recent editing disagreement has centered on whether "gay" should be the first adjective used to describe Lance Bass. While no one disputes whether Bass is in fact gay &mdash; he's 'out' about it &mdash; his sexuality is not what primarily defines him, per the end of this article reference. American culture is sensitive to others' sexual orientations, but that doesn't mean individual's Wikipedia articles need to identify it from the start. Others' articles do not routinely begin with "straight", "bisexual" and the like, and doing so in this article suggests a disingenuous motive. &mdash;Adavidb 11:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Relatively few males in pop music and Hollywood are out as gay; that Bass is out, is a notable fact. Other bio articles such as Peter Paige and Bass's ex- Reichen Lehmkuhl include the "gay" adjective in the into. The Chad Allen (actor) article discusses it in the second graf in the lede. Other gay actor bios don't include it in the first intro, but there appears to be no standard.  As to motive, the only way including his sexuaility "suggests a disingenuous motive" is if you operate from the POV that being gay is somehow bad or negative. The contrary view is that suppressing mention of his sexuality in the lede is censorship. Why is he described as an "American singer" when his citizenship could be covered later in the article? Is his being Amercian more important than him being gay? AU Tiger  » talk 17:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Peter Paige and Chad Allen are primarily famous for being openly gay entertainers who are very active in the fight for gay rights. Bass, however, is primarily famous for being in 'N Sync and for his attempts at space travel, and he just happens to be gay. Also, he is not a gay activist. As Adavidb has already said, Bass's sexuality isn't a defining point of his career, and for a lot of people he's just known for being a pop singer in 'N Sync. Therefore, placing gay in the intro is unnecessary. -Lonely Sound, 19:09, 14 June 2007

I think adding the word "gay" into the intro is unnecessary and should be removed. Neil Patrick Harris and T.R. Knight aren't labeled in their articles as "gay actors". Bass's sexuality is discussed thoroughly later on in the article. If the word is placed in the intro of this article, it should be placed in the intro of every gay person's article on Wikipedia, which is ridiculous.

There's little evidence this is being done in good faith. -Lonely Sound 15:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Lonely, (or 74.72.3.108 since you appear to alternately log in and out) it is your opinion that having the adjective is unnecessary and your argument that the description would have to go into every GLBT person's article is a fallacy. I did some more digging and found that although not spelled out in the current Biography Manual of Style a previous version indicated sexuality should be handled like ethnicity which was based on relevance to the article subject on a case by case basis.


 * I originally replaced it because I saw an anon (which turns out to be your IP addy) remove the word in an action that appeared to me to homophobic vandalism because it was anon and the deletion didn't match the edit summary; very much a good faith edit on my part. As I mentioned above, I believe Bass' status as an out pop star makes his sexuality notable enough to be in the lede. I don't necessarily believe it has to be in the very first sentence though. What needs to happen is that all the interested parties here need to come to a consensus on the notability of his sexuality and therefore whether or how to include the reference to it in the lede and you need to stop your borderline personal attacks (inappropriately characterizing the edit as vandalism and attacking my motives). AU Tiger  » talk 22:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the issue is whether to mention Bass's sexuality in the intro; I question using "gay" as the first adjective to describe him. His singing and American upbringing have defined his overall celebrity more than his being gay. To quote from the article reference I included initially, Bass is "also gay". How about removing "gay" from the first sentence and adding something like, "Bass announced in July 2006 that he is gay." to the end of the paragraph? &mdash;Adavidb 21:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that's a reasonable solution. AU Tiger » talk 17:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
 * 1) It is stable.
 * 2) It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
 * a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
 * 1) Overall:
 * a Pass/Fail:
 * a Pass/Fail:

Early life

 * "Bass, whose last name is pronounced like the fish" - Per Manual_of_Style, pronunciation in Wikipedia is indicated using the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA).
 * I'm not sure singing in school and church is considered the start of a singing career. 1995, when he joined the group, would more appropriately be referred to as the start of his career.
 * "Mississippi Agriculture and Forestry Museum" - Why is Forestry the only wikified word here?
 * The prose could use some work. It's choppy to read. For example, the first part could read, "Bass (IPA pronunciation) was born to Jim Bass, a lab technician, and Diane Bass, an elementary school teacher, in Laurel, Mississippi.[3] Raised as a Souther Baptist, at the age of 10, he moved with his parents and older sister Stacy to Clinton, Mississippi, where he was soon singing as a chorus member for both his church and school. ..." Subsequently remove the last paragraph regarding religion. It speaks of him currently, but this is the early life section.
 * "During his time as a student, Bass excelled at math and science." - How do you know?
 * ✅. MgCupcake 21:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

'N Sync

 * Where did the information regarding his recruitment come from?
 * This section needs to be reworded. It starts with him joining the group, then jumps to before, then back to after. Simply combining the first two sentences would correct this issue. Basically, "In 1995, Bass joined [...] 'N Sync [...] after former member [...] decided to leave the group. In need of a bass singer, the group began searching. Justin Timberlake..."
 * "Bass is the youngest person ever inducted into the Mississippi Musicians Hall of Fame.[8]" This seems like it would be more appropriate in a different section. He was not inducted into the HoF solely because he was a member of 'N Sync.
 * ✅ MgCupcake 21:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Career as a producer

 * This section needs additional referencing. The first paragraph is totally without.
 * ✅ MgCupcake 21:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Other work

 * "Bass has a habit of working with best friend and former bandmate Joey Fatone." - That doesn't read very encyclopedic.
 * This section also needs additional referencing. It reads like OR. It's also very trivial. Not only in its content, but also in the way it's formatted in a list, rather than paragraphs.
 * "Fatone was the first 'N Sync member to whom Bass revealed his sexuality. Bass is also the godfather of Fatone's daughter, Briahna." - Trivial information which has nothing to do with his "work".
 * ✅ MgCupcake 21:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Relationships

 * 'Bass has confirmed that this is untrue and he and Andrade are "just friends." He said, "He's just a friend. We are just friends now. "I guess you can say we're dating because we've been on multiple dates, but it's nothing exclusive. I'm freshly out of a relationship." ' - The quotations are wrong here. Punctuation should only be inside the quotation marks if it is a full quote, therefore it should be "just friends". As for the rest of the sentence, there seems to be an extra quotation mark in the middle of the quote.
 * ✅, though this was added after the article was nominated for GA, by an unregistered user. MgCupcake 22:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

In popular culture

 * This is just a trivia section. Incorporate encyclopedic content into the article and removed the rest. If it doesn't have a reference, delete it.


 * ✅ MgCupcake 21:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Non-section-specific

 * Uses of "US" should be written as "U.S." per Manual of Style.
 * Block quotes are generally reserved for quotes that are four or more lines in length, which none of the blocked quotes in this article are.
 * The article lacks mention of any awards he has received.
 * Also, are there no well-known criticisms of him?
 * Although there doesn't seem to be an issue with on-going edit wars, the history does show some instability periodically. However, none notable enough to affect GA.
 * ✅. Added criticisms and awards. MgCupcake 22:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Conclusion
This article fails to meet GA criteria. Once issues have been addressed and the article is brought up to standards, it can be renominated at WP:GAC. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you make seek remediation at WP:GA/R. Regards, Lara Love  T / C  20:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Usertalk Tullerk July 29,2007
I am disputing the "facts" presented in this article. Lance was born James Lanceton Bass, but that is not stated in this article. That is why I am disputing the factual accuracy of this article. I am also tagging it for restructuring beacuse there are several parts of the article that reapeat themselves, or should be a new heading.
 * You're disputing a fact that is backed up with many mainstream sources. "Lansten" is a nickname that was given to him by his bandmates. If you'd like to add that to the article, feel free. --MgCupcake 04:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)