Talk:Lance corporal

Middle Ages reference
Ive restored the reference to the Middle Ages rank origin. I have read this in numerous military history textbooks. Note, the article does not say this is 100 percent confirmed, but rather it is a possible origin of the rank. The other origin with the Italian rank could be just as correct. -Husnock 21:49, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Royal Marines: appointment or rank?
Is Lance Corporal still an appointment rather than a substantive rank in the Royal Marines? Two pages which suggest this:
 * UK Regular Forces: Strength of Other Ranks by Rank and Service
 * NATO Rank Codes and UK Service Designations

The former states that 'Neither the Naval Service nor the Royal Air Force has any personnel at OR-3'. OR-3 is the NATO rank code for Lance Corporal, and the Naval Service includes the Royal Marines.

The latter has no RM rank corresponding to the Army's Lance Corporal.

Anyone know for sure? &mdash; Franey 10:32, 3 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Lance Corporal is, in fact, an OR-3 rank. While the Naval Service itself doesn't have one, the RMs use a completely separate rank structure, similar to the US Navy and Marine Corps. You should be able to find a more complete list of NATO rank codes that includes individual listings for RM ranks.
 * Fox1 15:00, 3 August 2005 (UTC)


 * We know that, but actually check the links that Franey gives. You will notice that in the first link the listing is Naval Service and not Royal Navy - this includes the Royal Marines (and it says the Naval Service has no OR-3 ranks). In the second link, the Royal Marines ranks are actually listed separately from both the RN and the Army with no OR-3 rank listed. These are both official MoD sites. So his question still stands. It's one that's been puzzling me too. -- Necrothesp 15:37, 3 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This link clearly states that Lance Corporal is a promotional rank within the Royal Marines. *Officers & Other Ranks of the Royal Marines --Panzer71 (talk) 21:02, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Redundancy
Most of the opening paragraph refers specifically to UK usage. Most of that info appears under the UK heading also. Remove it from the first paragraph? –Maxrandom777 17:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Lance Jack
The entries for Australia and the United Kingdom both state that a common nickname is "Lance Jack". That's not in dispute, e.g. this page on the British MOD's website has it right at the top. But it would probably be best to delete the duplicates, and move the information into the introduction, and say something along the lines of "in Commonwealth nations, and others which have had links with British military tradition, a common nickname for Lance Corporal is "Lance Jack"". The problem is that (a) which nations use Lance Jack? and (b) where does it come from? I assume Jack is generic, as in Jack Tar. It seems to also be used in Canada, as per this website, albeit that it is also a Wiki. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 01:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 18:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

In the late Middle Ages...
...the Lance was the smallest fighting unit, for instance a knight, a sergeant (man-at-arms) and a page, and perhaps with some mounted archers, crossbowmen and harquebushiers. It was a tiny group of men under a knight. In Italy the leader of a 'lancia' was called 'capo lancia' o 'caporale', that is to say, corporal. See Condottieri. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:14, 16 December 2009 (UTC) Subsequently edited by the same IP address on 12:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC), the next day.


 * Yes. The article Lances fournies discusses this usage of "lance" for what today is commonly called a "squad." Given the earlier hoopla some years back about citing this as a possible alternate origin for "lance corporal," I'm just going to add a See Also section with that reference. --Eliyahu S Talk 16:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

France
In France, the equivalent of a Lance Corporal is a Caporal not 1st class private, which is given to a private as distinction and not a rank and doesn't give any particular authority over another private, whereas a Caporal is team leader in a fireteam. Blastwizard (talk) 13:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

In the French armies of the 16th-18th centuries the rank “anspessade“ was given to noblemen enlisted as soldiers in the infantry, coming from a poor family and not able to own a horse or to buy an officer commission, but the authorities wanted them to feel somewhat superior to other privates. French sources relate it to the French wars in Italy of the late 15th and early 16th C., originally former cavalrymen, “broken lances“ because they could not afford to fight mounted. Pat22 (talk) 11:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

US Army Lance Corporal Rank
The rank of lance corporal has existed in the US Army since at least 1802, as the US Army Institute of Heraldry documents its first occurrence in an “unofficial journal” dated in that year. The first official use of the rank of lance corporal is documented in the General Regulations for the Army, or, Military Institutes, (Articles 18 and 20), authorized by an Act of Congress on March 2, 1821 and published by the War Department in July 1821 and again on March 1, 1825.

In the General Regulations for the Army of the United States (Article XVI, Paragraph 64), published on January 25, 1841, and again in the 1847 edition (Article XIII, Paragraph 121; Article XIV, Paragraph 134; and Article XLIX, Paragraph 818) the rank of lance corporal and lance sergeant are authorized. (Lance corporals were to serve as assistant squad leaders.) Again, in the Revised Army Regulations of 1861 published on August 10, 1861 and in the 1863 edition “With An Appendix Containing the Changes and Laws Affecting Army Regulations And Articles Of War To June 25, 1863” in Article 40, Paragraph 971, lance corporal and lance sergeant are authorized. Lance corporal and lance sergeant ranks are authorized in Regulations of the Army of the United States and General Orders In Force on the 17th of February 1881 in Article LV, Paragraph 812 and in Regulations of the Army of the United States 1895 Article XXXII, Paragraph 257.

In the edition of 1901 “With Appendix Separately Indexed And Showing Changes to January 1, 1901”, in the Appendix, page 331, in Headquarters of the Army, General Orders, No. 42, June 30, 1897, Part II, the lance corporal is authorized to wear “…a chevron having one bar…”. In Regulations for the Army of the United States 1904, Article XXX, Paragraph 263, “…no company shall have more than one lance corporal at a time, unless there are noncommissioned officers absent by authority, during which absences there may be one for each absentee.” This proscription appears again in Article XXX, Paragraph 272 of Regulations for the Army of the United States 1910, and the editions of 1913, and 1917 “Corrected to April 15, 1917 (Changes, Nos. 1 to 55)”.

In 1920 the former lance corporal insignia of rank was assigned to private first class in War Department Circular No. 303, dated 3 August 1920. However, the Institute of Heraldry states that some US Army Tables of Organization and Equipment (TOEs) still authorized lance corporals until circa 1940. In February 1965 the US Army announced that effective September 1, 1965 that pay grade E-3 would be re-designated as lance corporal. The rank insignia was the pre-World War II specialist grade 6 insignia of one chevron above one arc or “rocker.”

Apparently, (admittedly based on conjecture and anecdotal evidence) due to a presumed shortage of general availability of the “new” rank insignia as well as a general dislike in the Army of the “new” rank title, partially because it may have been viewed as a “Marine Corps” rank, most commands and installations did not use the title. It appears that in practice, the Army (in some units and locales) had both E-3s and E-2s wearing a single chevron with both being called private first class (PFC) until 1968 when the “old” PFC insignia of one chevron became private E-2 (PV2) and E-3 became PFC using the “old/new” specialist grade 6/lance corporal insignia.

As the US Army was heavily involved in combat operations in Southeast Asia during the 1965-1968 time period, it is very odd that there appears to be no award citation or casualty listings (i.e., KIA or MIA) for Army lance corporals. Also, I have researched the list of Medal of Honor (MOH) recipients from 1866 through 1920 (there are so many for the Civil War that I have not completed it) and I cannot find a single Army lance corporal mentioned. (Perhaps any lance corporals, or lance sergeants, for that matter, so recognized were automatically meritoriously/ posthumously promoted to full corporal or sergeant, respectively, concurrent with the award of the MOH. According to an email I received from the Institute of Heraldry re an inquiry on the history of the US Army lance corporal rank, I was told that the Institutes History of U.S. Army Enlisted Ranks page is “not all inclusive” and that “we do not have a lot” in regards to historical files on the rank. The Institute provided me with a copy of illustrations of US Army Enlisted Rank insignia from THE PENTAGRAM (sic) NEWS, Washington, D.C., Page 13, entitled “Army Changes Enlisted Insignia” dated February 25, 1965 that shows PFC (E-2) with one chevron, Lance Corporal (E-3) with one chevron over one arc, and two Army E-9 ranks that are different than the current ones. The current Sergeant Major insignia (for a short while known as Staff Sergeant Major) is listed as Chief Master Sergeant (same as the current USAF E-9 rank) and the current Command Sergeant Major (with a slightly different star and wreath pattern) is simply Sergeant Major. Additionally, the Institute provided a copy of an article from the ARMY TIMES, Page 22, entitled “All About That ‘New’ Lance Corporal Rank” dated March 3, 1965, which corroborates the existence of the US Army lance corporal rank. This article includes citations in Farrow’s Military Encyclopedia of 1885 (page 174) and The Encyclopedia Americana (Volume 8, Page 1, 1829-1953 and 1963).

If anyone has any definitive information to add to the above, please share it. The history of US Army enlisted rank insignia is extremely complex and rather confusing, and even the Army’s Institute of Heraldry admits that its information is somewhat sparse and not “all inclusive.”CobraDragoon (talk) 05:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Marine
the article has forgotten that the word Marine(s) is to be capitalized 192.55.60.34 (talk) 00:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nope. This has been discussed ad infinitem and it has been decided that "marine" should not be capitalised on Wikipedia, any more than soldier, sailor or airman should be capitalised. It's merely an affectation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)