Talk:Land speed record

Typo
The article states "An illness in early childhood left her deaf, and more illnesses in early adulthood cut short a career in driving."(According to your page and other sources I have read, an early adulthood illness cut short a career in diving not driving.) 2600:6C48:6A7F:E4E8:3C08:3DE9:2836:8EE (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Not here. I think you meant to ask your question at Kitty O'Neil.  Stepho  talk 20:36, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Campbell tifosi?
The 1964 record is (still) clear POV-pushing for Campbell, whose speed was superseded as the absolute record before it was set. And wasn't this settled in 2008? Until somebody came back with the same POV edit, and lame explanations for why Campbell couldn't do it sooner, as justification for including it? 184.70.60.42 (talk) 19:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Not at all. In 1964 there where 3 separate land speeds records from 3 separate bodies - a confusing situation. The article explains this situation and also explains its resolution of the 3 bodies recognising each other's records. Also notice that Campbell is only mentioned in that explanatory text and is not in the proper list. All perfectly correct. Otherwise somebody will find an old news clipping saying Campbell had the LSR and try to add it in. With this explanatory text it is easy to recognise it and revert it.
 * I had to look up the word "tifosi" - it means "fanboy".  Stepho  talk 08:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)


 * +I have no problem with Campbell's record, in light of the multiple bodies, being mentioned, just not given the "pride of place" on the overall list, which only introduces confusion for the uninitiated. (Imagine knowing nothing and looking at the list:  every other record is higher than the last--except Campbell's...)
 * +If he's on the wheel-driven record list (at Land speed racing), a link-out for anybody wanting it is available.
 * +And tifosi is a bit loose usage...but the best (least insulting) term I could think of. 184.70.60.42 (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I was confused for a while when you said Campbell's 1964 record had pride of place on the overall list when his 1964 record is not on the list at all. Then I followed up your link to Land speed racing. Not sure why you asked your question on this talk page when the issue is at Land speed racing. Ask your question at talk:Land speed racing.  Stepho  talk 22:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)


 * No, the issue is, does it deserve the attention it had been getting here.
 * I have no dispute with it being there at all, and, indeed, put it there. 69.11.2.197 (talk) 01:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * There is some confusion about what you actually want. Can you quote the part you do not like?  Stepho  talk 02:24, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I thought removing the Campbell record from the abolute list was clear enough.
 * Except it was treated as vandalism before...
 * That's it. Just take it off the list.  184.70.60.42 (talk) 19:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Clear as mud. Campbell is not on the list, so how can we remove him? Quote the part you are thinking of because none of us have a clue what you are talking about.  Stepho  talk 21:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with being fanboys of Campbell, simply just applying the rules as laid down by the FIA. Breedlove's faster speed was not recognised by the FIA due to SoA being thrust powered and having only 3 wheels which is why the FIM made a special category for SoA as a motorcycle with sidecar. Hence Campbell was the official record holder (and is listed as such in the FIA archives) until the FIA decided to recognise thrust powered cars. Grubcrawl (talk) 17:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * As a corollary to above there is no mention of Breedlove's 407 mph in '63 in the FIA archives. Grubcrawl (talk) 18:00, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If anything needs to be removed from the list it should Breedlove's unofficial 1963 record which could have been 1000 mph as it still wouldn't have been recognised by the FIA! Grubcrawl (talk) 08:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I think a good analogy here is a runner breaking a world record then going to the IOC and saying 'can you just ignore my positive drugs test please!' Surely Breedlove et al must have realised that he wouldn't get their cars ratified by the FIA. The rules were very clear and they weren't followed. Grubcrawl (talk) 09:11, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * A better analogy would be if the rules said a runner had to be white. So a black runner would knowingly be breaking the rules and then say "can you just ignore my skin colour please!"
 * The rules at the time for the land speed record specified 4 wheels with no good reason for excluding 3 wheels.
 * The rules at the time also said must be wheel driven. Jet propulsion for a land vehicle wasn't really thought of when the rules were initially made. So the rules were challenged and new rules were brought in. For those who think the jet propulsion is easy compared to making a strong drivetrain for driving wheels, they made a separate class for wheel driven vehicles. It's all about keeping the rules relevant to the times rather than keeping them stuck in the irrelevant past.  Stepho  talk 00:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with the introduction of thrust power to the rules and it was always going to be a natural progression anyway. However many still claim that a thrust powered vehicle is not really a proper car. It's a shame that the FIA didn't wake up to this and change the rules earlier. That said rules are rules as they say otherwise it becomes a 'free for all'. Perhaps there shouldn't be any rules covering the actual car as the concept has totally changed over the years anyway. However what should remain I believe are the rules regarding timing and reverse runs within an hour. Back to Campbell and reiterating - according to the FIA archives he held the official absolute record up until the rules changed and no amount discussion is going to change that. I believe the animosity towards Campbell is due to disgruntled Americans who wanted their man favored even if it meant breaking the rules. If you want to produce a new page perhaps titled perhaps the 'Fastest Person On Earth' in which you could include Stan Barrett with his estimated speed and Mickey Thompson with his one-way record then fine as long as the records are stated as unofficial. Grubcrawl (talk) 09:55, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Confusion on the sanctioning of records
Can someone explain to me the criteria of the records listed under "wheel-driven?" I have been working with pages of early auto racers. Quite a few pages mention them attaining various land speed records. Only a fraction, however, do I find listed on the table. One such profile is Arthur Duray; his page lists him as having set the record three times, however I can only see two of these listed on the table.

Is the table a select, or random listing, or is it based on some type of sanctioning or official recognition? I am not well versed in land speed racing and for all I know the ones listed are recognized by Guinness or some other body. RegalZ8790 (talk) 22:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Wheel-driven means the propulsion is via the wheels and not via propellers, jet thrust, magnetism (eg railgun or maglev train), ropes, shot out of a cannon, dropped from a helicopter, etc.
 * Duray's page lists "1904 March 31 88.76 mph (142.85 km/h) Nice, France Gobron-Brillié 'Paris-Madrid". But our list has "March 31, 1904, Nice, France, Louis Rigolly, Gobron-Brillié Paris-Madrid, Internal combustion, 94.78 mph, 152.53 km/h". The same day and the same event but 94 mph is faster than 88 mph.
 * Also, the early days of land speed records was confusing because different bodies had different rules (required 2-way run, with/without wind) and often ignored other bodies (especially between countries).  Stepho  talk 23:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification!
 * RegalZ8790 (talk) 05:16, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Generally, the earliest wheel-driven records were to French Auto Club sanction. Later, FIA took over the task, and it became more systematic.  It was FIA that introduced the two-way rule, which means many (later) single passes which were, in fact, above the existing record, don't count.  184.70.60.42 (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Early modern period and 19th century
Under the Land speed record I've added a sentence on the limits of speed travelling in the 19th century (by rail) and earlier (by horse). Automobiles in the 19th century never exceeded the speeds that could be achieved on railways. Darrelljon (talk) 16:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)