Talk:Land speed record/Archive 2

Worst article I've come across in a long time - where is Gary Gabelich and Blue Flame?
They only held the absolute LSR for 13 years and the kilometer record for 27.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Flame_(car) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gabelich

Aileron Spades (talk) 06:33, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm on the case. I have managed to expand and imporve Gary's article and have it more or less accurate and I do want to expand it further pending some responses to emails for new good aources plus I've ordered some books so I can use them as well and add actually real and really actual books for people to reference to in "further Reading". I have now moved onto the Blue Flame page and have added some refs but I am stuck regarding details about the engine and the auxiliary manufacturers. I have actually made efforts to contact Dick Keller himself to see if he can provide documentation I can upload to wiki commons to reference back to, or even a detailed forum or blog post I can reference back to. Either way, I will not give up trying until I get the articles up to standard. I'm chipping away at it slowly but surely. I've even taken on the Budweiser Rocket page to get the refs up to spec there. Regards Emir ☭ irongron ☭ (talk) 00:47, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Updated all the RAW URL references to proper citation format with the Title and other fields completed for the Gary Gabelich and Blue Flame article. The reference lists make the articles appear much more professional now. ☭ irongron ☭ (talk) 12:47, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Should Glenn Curtiss's 1907 record be included
In 1907 Glenn Curtiss set a speed record on a motorcycle which was faster than the then current car record. Since this article is "land speed record" and not "automobile speed record", it seems like the Curtiss record should be included (albeit with a note in the comments that the record was not recognized by the French, same as the Ford 999 record). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:3:1200:454:F853:E71F:52B8:DABD (talk) 21:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

first over 100kph
I'm not sure about the figures either: the "first record over 100km/h is listed as 65 km/h, which is very strange. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mswake (talk • contribs) 22:47, 7 January 2003 (UTC)

other land speed records
What about other types of land speed records? By train for instance? Or the electric land speed record? Or the steam land speed record et.c.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liftarn (talk • contribs) 12:23, 8 January 2003 (UTC)


 * This are generally accepted absolute land speed records. Before 1914 rule where unclear and some trains may have been faster. After 1914 the LSR as always been established by an automobile except the first Spirit of America wich was a tricycle and then assimilated to a motorcycle. Of course there also a lot of record by example for piston engines, turbine engines, electric engines, solar powered cars, for train....... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 13:08, 8 January 2003 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we should have individual articles, Train speed record, Steam land speed record, Steam cylinder land speed record, Electric land speed record, Electric land speed record et.c. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liftarn (talk • contribs) 09:51, 9 January 2003 (UTC)

HTML
If someone can find the bug in HTML to have links at the end, Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 21:49, 8 February 2003 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Modemac. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 23:41, 8 February 2003 (UTC)

kilometre speed v mile speed
Ooopps ! This needs some comments. The speeds are in mph they are actually 2 records the record of km and record of the mile. Kilo speed = average speed on a km and mile speed = average speed on a mile. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 01:27, 9 February 2003 (UTC)


 * Wait... Do you mean the "Kilo speed" is the speed over a 1 km distance measured in miles per hour? That seems rather confusing, no? Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Infrogmation (talk • contribs) 00:53, 9 February 2003 (UTC)


 * It was measured in what you want; eiter kmh or mph. This is just a matter of conversion. In final version the table should give both kmh and mph, but I feel too lazy now.:There is 2 LSRs : the record of the km and the record of the mile. In some exceptionnal circumstances there was two record holders. See my comments on Talk:Henry Ford. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 01:04, 9 February 2003 (UTC)
 * A little more: Speed is never measured time is measured. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 01:50, 9 February 2003 (UTC)

More exlanation needed
Could someone do some more explanation? Why are the yellow articles controversial? This is important, because the average reader (me) has no idea what the controversy even is. Also .... can the yellow be muted somewhat? Maybe like the background on this page? It hurts the eyes ... :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atorpen (talk • contribs) 03:00, 9 February 2003 (UTC)


 * This need a full article but that's a huge work. Well for Henry Ford see Talk:Henry Ford. The first Breedlove record is set with a 3-wheels vehicle so it's a motorcycle not a car. The Budweiser Rocket didn't set any record according to FIA rules if you wish to know more see http://www.roadsters.com/bud/. Making an accurate table is not a simple work and the subject brings at least 10 related articles. I'm not an native English speaker (and I sometimes have something else to do thaan writing in wikipedia), thus I need more helps that critics.


 * If yellow hurts the eyes, edit and choose the color you prefer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 03:10, 9 February 2003 (UTC)

Race name not car name
Under "Vehicle" are some names of the auto race, not trhe car's name. However, I am not expert enough to change them to what is proper or to make a new heading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NightCrawler (talk • contribs) 02:16, 6 November 2003 (UTC)
 * No, for instance the Gobron Brillié Paris-Madrid was a Gobron Brillié built initialy to race and the Paris-Madrid then used for the LSR read this as "Gobron Brillié Paris-Madrid" like "Ferrari 312 Formula One". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 18:13, 6 November 2003 (UTC)

World land speed record
World land speed record is a better tittle IMHO and complies with FIA name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 23:43, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

1964
Aren't there a bunch of Green Monster and Wingfoot Express records missing from 1964? Don't all these get retroactively recognised after the FIA/FIM agreement over rules? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.92.17 (talk) 07:31, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * There were. It's explained in the text. And Green Monster & Wingfoot Express are now in.  TREKphiler   any time you're ready, Uhura  20:11, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

In fact, there are no less than four records missing, three from 1964 and one from 1965. In 1964 Breedlove broke Arfons' record twice, with a 468, and a 526 in which he famously wrecked the Spirit of America. Arfons then retook the record with a 536. In 1965, Arfons did a 576 on November 7, in between Breedlove's two records. Emvan (talk) 07:22, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Women's Land speed record‎:
Leslie Porterfield competed at the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah and rode her Turbo Hiabusa bike at speeds of 209 mph, and in doing so became the first woman to be part of the elite 200 mph club. http://sports.rightpundits.com/?p=1370 Pickle i po (talk) 11:32, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I just added a section about Kitty O'Neil, whose record is 512 or so miles per hour. Is this record somehow illegitimate? I'm fairly sure this speed was obtained, so is there any reason why it shouldn't be considered the current women's land speed record? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.167.214 (talk) 01:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

69.249.167.214 (talk) 02:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Actual Current Record Holder
Kitty O'Neil's vehicle was a 3-wheeler, according to these sources: [1 ] [2 ]

If the record is only for 4-wheeled vehicles, as it is per my understanding of the FIA rules, it would seem Jessi Combs is the current record holder. I propose (if any change at all to the wiki article) that the women's record section be split, noting that Combs has the current 4-wheel record (having beaten Lee Breedlove and the Spirit of America vehicle), and Kitty O'Neil has the (much faster) 3-wheel record. I propose that, because as an average person visiting Wikipedia, I don't much care whether three or four wheels were used, I just want to know who was fastest. (Some may care who is fastest while still "qualifying" to the same 4-wheel standard used for the absolute combined land speed record. Those readers would likely want the Combs record.)

Explaining that the "three-wheel record" or "Women's land sped record, when including three-wheeled vehicles" is held by O'Neil, and the four-wheel or FIA-rules women's land speed record is held by Combs, should be sufficient explanation.

68.82.219.24 (talk) 07:03, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

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Campbell's 1931 record
The list has been reverted to show the location as Verneukpan, but that article states explicitly that "In 1929 the pan was used by Sir Malcolm Campbell, who unsuccessfully attempted to break the land speed record in his Napier-Campbell Blue Bird". [This documentary] states at 44:02 that Campbell broke the record on 5 Febraury 1931 at Daytona Beach. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 04:29, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not at all sure YouTube qualifies as reliable. In any case, Northey says Campbell set the 11 March 1929 record (231.446 mph) at Daytona & the later record (246.09 mph), assisted by the government of South Africa, at Verneuk Pan.  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  12:58, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Youtube is not RS, but the footage is taken from this original news footage from British Pathe. Can't see any reason that this would not be considered reliable. DerbyCountyinNZ  (Talk Contribs) 18:24, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair 'nuf. I can't resolve this with the sources I've got. Newsies are known for getting it wrong on occasion. (And Campbell does set a record at Daytona in '29.) Northey might also be wrong. I seem to recall reading somewhere about Campbell believing Daytona Beach was unsafe, after what happened to Keech. Absent a source that can settle the issue.... This page might, but I don't have the credentials to use it...  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  02:38, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

A More Complete Table
Found a more complete table of land speed records. If no one has any objections I'm adding the entries that our version is missing.2001:56A:7573:7A00:8090:1707:4557:68DD (talk) 20:34, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Campbell
Since the Admins here don't give a damn, & since the Campbell partisans continue to insist a record that was lower than the one previously set, a circumstance that doesn't apply to any other effort on this page, I will make one more appeal for rationality, since this isn't 1963. Then I will tell the Campbell partisans, every one, they can go to hell. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  17:17, 17 June 2019 (UTC)


 * That's very sweet and balanced of you, Trekphiler. But here's the deal. This is a list of land speed records. On the 17th July 1964, Campbell set a record. It is the case that another person had gone faster before Campbell; but as at 17th July 1964 that person's effort had been disallowed. Later, the rules were changed and that person's effort was ratified. It should not be a great bone of contention to list Capmbell's record in the table, with a note pointing to the unusual circumstances which meant that Campbell's record stood only until the prior effort had been ratified, and ergo thereafter did not stand. What is not acceptable is a) to pretend that Campbell's record was not awarded b) to remove Campbell from the table - since this, rather than the narrative, is where people will look for this stuff and c) to get so hot & bothered about the righteousness of your self-sanctified position that you start telling people who disagree with you to go to hell. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:37, 17 June 2019 (UTC)


 * And - not to put to fine a point on it - you are /still/ in breach of 3RR. The rules there are very clear. The rules apply to you. Please do what the rules say. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Campbell is not "so special'. It's simply that for a period - until the ratification of Breedlove's record - his July 17th run was considered record breaking. Would you perhaps do us the courtesy of discussing this here please. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:22, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * This has been a settled issue more than 40 years. Breedlove's record is universally accepted as standing. The only people trying to rewrite history are you, Andy, and User:Grubcrawl, both here & here, & with the same rationale: the claim Campbell held the absolute record. It may have been in dispute in 1963. It isn't now. It hasn't been for more than 40yr. Campbell's is the only one you defend for inclusion after it has been exceeded by somebody else. Not Goldenrod, I notice, just Campbell. That's irrational & partisan; removing Campbell might be justified for violating NPOV, if keeping it in wasn't just plain stupidity.   TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  22:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC)


 * This article lists land speed records. There was a brief period in which Campbell held that record as a result of July 17. We should record that. Nobody is disputing Breedlove's record. Nobody is disputing that his record predates Campbell's run. Nothing in this is a threat to Breedlove's legacy. It's merely a question of how we represent the history of the land speed record. What seems to me to be irrational is a) your so strong desire to expunge Campbell from the record and b) the verging on unhinged passion of your argumentation. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:39, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The definition of a "record" hinges on it being recognised by the awarding body. Not how fast it was, not if anyone else had gone faster beforehand, but on what the relevant authority decrees is the record.  Now for Campbell and the LSR, we have the following axioms:
 * The relevant body is the FIA. Not Trekphiler, not me, not WP, but the FIA
 * The FIA awarded the record to Campbell. This is widely reported and is unchallengeable.
 * There are subtle reasons as to why Breedlove wasn't recognised earlier. But that's the FIA's business, and they didn't.
 * If we cover both in the article (and I've no objection) we would need to make the distinction clear.
 * You keep removing Campbell. But it's unclear (per the points above), just which reason you object to.
 * There are two comments on this page that I would take issue with:
 * "until the ratification of Breedlove's record "  I don't know of Breedlove's 1963 (the tricycle SoA) ever being ratified.
 * " Breedlove's record is universally accepted as standing." Which car?  If you mean SoA, then I don't see this as "standing" (at least not for the FIA rules). It wasn't accepted at the time (not enough wheels, so it counted as a tricycle motorbike, not a car) and it wasn't retrospectively accepted. The rules were changed, and a re-run of it today would be a valid run, but I know of no source for this having ever been applied retrospectively to the 1963 run.
 * Campbell's record was superseded, but by later runs, not the 1963 run. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:54, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * ♠I keep removing Campbell from the table for a simple reason: the record was exceeded before he ever made the attempt. You've been making a false argument that the date of ratification matters. It doesn't. FIA, however belatedly, did ratify Breedlove's, & that makes Campbell moot, because Breedlove did it first, and his speed was greater. Get over it.
 * ♠You'll notice, I have no objection to mentioning Campbell, but somebody seems intent on objecting to not having Campbell in the table, despite it making his attempt the only one that's lower than a previously-set record. Tell me how that is a rational outcome.
 * ♠"Campbell's record was superseded, but by later runs" August 5, 1963, Breedlove set the record. When it was ratified, & by whom, is irrelevant, & that's before Campbell ever ran. Get over it.
 * ♠You're right on one point. It's about what the sources say, & I don't know of a single one, today, that credits Campbell as taking the record after Breedlove's effort. Not a single one. It's not 1963 any more. Stop trying to rewrite history.  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  23:16 & 23:21, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Holthusen (1986). Which seems to be accepted as the canon book for this page. Or Pearson's Bluebird and the Dead Lake for a contemporary one.  I'd say the FIA themselves, but their website is horrendous to navigate.
 * So you claim that the FIA didn't award the record to Campbell in 1964?   And you claim that they did award a record to Breedlove, for his 1963 run?  Presumably not in 1963, so when did they do this?  Andy Dingley (talk) 23:·30→, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * ♠I claim it's not 1964 now. Since I don't have Holthusen or Pearson in front of me, I can't comment on what they actually do say: that Campbell made the effort, or that it is officially credited now (not in 1963--now)? You keep harping on the timing of the approval like it matters; it doesn't.
 * ♠You also haven't explained how a lower speed is a new record, no matter when credit was given, or by whom. Every other single record on the page is higher than the one before--except your pet's. Explain to me how that makes sense.  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  01:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It's not a lower speed. It's the only speed (since Cobb), as Breedlove's had been voided by the three wheel issue.
 * Also, don't ask me to justify it, I just record what the FIA did. I'm not saying it's right, just that it's what they did. This is how we work here. Your argument is still based on, "I don't think it should have gone that way".
 * There's also the issue (which I literally explained to you over a decade ago, see the talk: archives) that Campbell could have gone a lot faster in Australia in 1964 (and easily passed Breedlove's record) except that:
 * 1. He didn't need to.  He drove just fast enough to get the record, deliberately, because he knew very clearly what the current FIA record was (Cobb's, not Breedlove's time) and what he needed to do.
 * 2. Campbell knew that if he went just over the record, he still got the record, the glory and the sponsorship. And next year he could beat it again, and again.
 * 3.  The weather had turned bad.  The car was capable of 500+ (that's why Breedlove later wanted to borrow it - no-one has ever really questioned this), but the track conditions were barely enough for 400.
 * BTW - Campbell still holds the FIA record for Category A, sub class IX (wheel-drive turbines), in the heavier weight class (The Vesco Turbinator of 2001 is in the weight class below, and holds the overall IX record – it might even be the whole Cat A record.) Andy Dingley (talk) 10:10, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * ♠"I don't need to justify it"? If you want to claim it belongs in on the page, after being superseded, you damn sure do. Breedlove's record might not have been accepted in 1964, but it absolutely has been in the 50yr since then.
 * ♠All the excuses why Campbell didn't do any better are irrelevant. Every record attempt is bound by conditions, including Breedlove's, yet he went faster.
 * ♠Your arguments now are just as specious as they were the last time. You're treating Campbell's effort as if we're still in 1963, with the acceptance of Breedlove's record still at issue. It isn't, & hasn't been for 50yr. Get over it.
 * ♠That Campbell could have gone faster is also irrelevant. He didn't do it. FIA gives no plaudits for the potential to set a record.
 * ♠You'll also notice, I'm not objecting to having Campbell's record included among the wheel-driven records here, where it legitimately belongs--& where one of your partisans, apparently, prefers to delete it in favor of putting it where you want it: here, where it doesn't legitimately belong.
 * ♠I also notice you're now throwing up all manner of off-point garbage to confuse the issue, because you're incapable of addressing it directly.  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  21:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you stop with the personal attacks please? 2001:4898:80E8:9:C1D3:1793:2623:4A12 (talk) 17:31, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting definition of "personal attack", seeing I was fasley accused of vandalism by him, just for making an edit he doesn't like. And seeing he's obfuscating the issue instead of responding to it.  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  22:27, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Airborne
The borderline between land travel and air travel is thin. How fast can a vehicle go without being airborne? Herein lies the controversy. Yo be sure, even vehicles (such as road-driven cars or even fast land mammals such as dogs and cats) can get airborne), but so much as 1 mm above the ground is airborne. Is bouncing on the ground airborne?

Pbrower2a (talk) 11:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
 * LSR cars are pressed firmly down onto the ground by their aerodynamics. If they "flew" a tiny distance above the ground, they'd be Aérotrains (and it turns out that's difficult to do). When an LSR car doesn't stay pressed down by deliberate aerodynamic design, it doesn't stay in a stable position, it flips right up into the air and is destroyed in a crash. This hasn't been common for many years, but it's how a few of them were destroyed.  Andy Dingley (talk) 11:51, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Manual of Style compliance
Reading this article, I see that mph speeds are primary. As these records are according to rules published by the The Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile in Paris using km/h, shouldn't this article be in compliance of the Wiki Manual of Style and have SI primary? Avi8tor (talk) 17:13, 18 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Actually it's a mix of the two. But as per WP:UNITS, km/h should be the primary and mph should be the secondary.  Stepho  talk 21:29, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Why Guinness and not FIA?
Is Guinness the proper ratifying authority for Jessi Combs's women's land speed record? I understand, perhaps mistakenly, that the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) does it for the open (non-gender-based) record, but I don't know whether they bother with a women-only record (perhaps because they fear that this might lead to pressure for possibly politically controversial and/or uneconomic women-only car races (and/or disabled-driver categories, etc), or whatever?). However if they do ratify a woman's record, but haven't recognized this one, then the article should say so, preferably with the reason given (such as that ratifying crash-related posthumous records may have safety implications, as motor sport has long had to struggle with the risk of driver deaths?). And if they don't perhaps the article should some how clarify that Guinness really is the proper authority here, to avoid confusing readers like me. This article, about her 2013 record, appears to make it clear that the FIA was the relevant body, at least back in 2013:
 * "... As the Federation International de Automobile (FIA) is the governing body for land speed records, strict rules regarding engines and wheel configurations had to be followed in order to properly qualify. The FIA rules require the vehicle to be considered a “car” sporting four wheels. So in order for the Eagle to blast across at the lake bed at subsonic speeds, solid billet aluminum wheels were chosen. Solid aluminum wheels not only reduce rolling weight but remove traditional concerns regarding centrifugal forces associated with rubber tires. The solid wheel system also allows the driver to focus on “piloting” the ground based fighter rather than having to drive it. ..."

(I've also earlier asked this question at the Jessi Combs Talk page here). Tlhslobus (talk) 13:27, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Maybe it's something to do with Kitty O'Neil's record on 3 wheels perhaps not being an FIA record? Tlhslobus (talk) 13:50, 24 June 2021 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, the FIA does not nor ever has (and nor had its predecessor, the AIACR) recognised any women's land speed records. The consolidated lists produced by Count Seherr-Thoss in 1987 (see on the FIA website land speed records archives page) did not include any, and I have seen motoring press articles from the 1920s (when the governing body was the AIACR) noting that a womens' land speed record "does not exist" (see e.g. Helle Nice). The article you have linked to refers to Jessi Coombs wanting to meet FIA regulations, because it seems she wanted (ultimately) to break the FIA outright record, not because the FIA recognises any women-only records. In which case, Guinness World Records would be the body recognising the women's record. JamesHT1967 (talk) 17:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, JamesHT1967, that makes a lot of sense. But would you know of any reliable sources that supports this, as it would be a useful clarification to add, perhaps to all 3 articles (this one + Jessi Combs and Kitty O'Neil), but certainly to this record article, particularly its section on the women's record? Of course somebody could try adding it without a supporting Reliable Source, but I suspect there's more than a 50% chance that this would be questioned, in which case to do so becomes a violation of WP:NOR. Tlhslobus (talk) 16:24, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, I now expect this article probably contains all the required info. Tlhslobus (talk) 17:03, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I've now quoted from that source at the start of the section, and I feel this should resolve any confusion provided Wikilinks to this section are used from the other two articles.Tlhslobus (talk) 18:44, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Are women's records really needed here as a separate section
AFAIK these records are not athletic, this totally independent on pilot's sex 95.161.217.251 (talk) 00:12, 9 February 2022 (UTC)