Talk:Landseer dog

Foreign version
Moving text from article--posted here 8 hours ago "to translate" but hasn't been translated. I'd rather just remove this text from this version of wikipedia & let someone translate directly from the current version of the other languages when they're ready to do the work, but for the moment I'll put it here. If translation isn't done by the next time I check back, I'm inclined to delete this whole article. Elf | Talk 07:46, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Breed in Finding Neverland?
When I watched the film, I was pretty sure it was a Landseer Newfie. However, anon user 24.15.133.137 changed it, saying " (The movie used a Great Pyrenees, not a Landseer Newfoundland.)"  Since it's anon, I can't query the user for his source of info, and I can't find anything on the web that tells me for *sure*; everything I've found refers to it in general as a Newfie (without ever saying something like) "played by fred, the newfie owned & trained by...)")--except for one user page that says they're pretty sure from watching the film that it's a Great Pyrenees. I am not familiar enough with the breeds to say for sure. Can anyone find any definitive answer on this? Elf | Talk 19:07, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

OK, I asked my super-movie-info-source friend, and he didn't know and couldn't find it on the web anywhere, either, so he says: "I called the Animal Actors Agency (323.665.9500) and asked them and the lady rattled off "great pyrenees" without taking a breath." So there you go. Elf | Talk 20:28, 6 May 2005 (UTC)


 * The Trivia pertaining to Finding Neverland dog Nana is incorrect anyways, actually. Nana was supposed to be a Newfoundland dog (it states this in the live-action movie and the book itself), so unless you consider the Landseer and Newfoundland dog as the same breed, Nana is not a Landseer.(Foxpen 01:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC))

http://pieski.pl.webpark.pl

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:45, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

"It is believed that, by and large, the exportation of these dogs occurred during the late 18th century. However, paintings show us that these dogs must have already existed in England in the early 18th century."

1838 is in the 19th century. This needs to be re-written with the correct dates, whether both are 19th century, or the second sentence is removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.73.123 (talk) 12:08, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Breed's origin
There is nothing in the article telling e reader that this breed has any connection to Germany. Does it? Or is it simply an offshoot of the Newfoundland? Cavalryman V31 (talk) 21:48, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
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Undid reversion by Cavalryman (2020-06-24)
Hello...

I have undid your "undo: of my corrections to the Landseer (dog) page.

The information you presented is simply incorrect.

The Landseer ECT and Landseer color form of the Newfoudland ARE two different breeds, yet you incorrectly state in your justification of the reversion that "reliable sources" state they are the same breed.

You are misinformed.

If you want proof, simply look at the breed standards of the Newfoundland dog and the Landseer dog as referenced in the article. The Newfoundland dog standard clearly state that black and white is an acceptable color, and every Newfoundland dog book in the English speaking world refers to the black and white form as "Landseer", including the books referenced in the article. As my version of the article also clearly states, Landseer colored and black Newfoundland puppies regularly occur in the same litter, an obvious impossibility if the term didn't refer to both a color form of one breed and a different dog breed ("https://webzoom.freewebs.com/blackwatchnewfoundlands/Willow/Willow%20Pierre%20Pups/Day%201.jpg" "https://i.pinimg.com/originals/db/7c/9e/db7c9e4c467d19c2730a67c979f816b6.jpg"). The article also clearly describes the historical separation of the ECT Landseer breed from its Newfoundland dog base, with given references.

There can be absolutely no doubt the term "Landseer dog" refers to both the European ECT Landseer and the Landseer color form of the Newfoundland.

Also neither dog originates in Canada, as your version of the page insists. Newfoundland was not part of Canada until 1948, long after the modern Newfoundland breed was established. The modern breed was actually created from Newfoundland stock in England, then exported back to the North America. Again, the referenced books describe this. And the ECT Landseer was bred in Germany, not Canada (https://dogwellnet.com/breeds/pedigreed/landseer-ect-r139/). Or do you think its possible to register a puppy of Newfoundland parents as a different breed? You would be hard pressed to find ANY Landseer ECTs in Canada, and the Canadian kennel club does not recognize the breed or allow ECT Landseers to be registered as Newfoundland dogs.

I see you are from Australia, and can assure you the term Landseer is used to describe the Landseer Newfoundland in Australia as well. Talk to an Australian breeder of Newfoundland dogs if you doubt this (for example https://newfys.com/sherlock.asp)

Thank you Grant Gussie — Preceding unsigned comment added by GTGussie (talk • contribs) 04:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello, thank you for bringing your discussion here. Here on Wikipedia WP:Original Research is not permitted, we can only reflect what has been researched by others and documented in WP:Reliable sources, both sources I added to the article are such sources by well known authorities on dogs and both state they are in fact the same dogs, just in Continental Europe they are recognised separately. The articles you have added above and particularly the dog-learn.com source you have added to the article are not reliable sources and so cannot be used to cite information. Do you have any reliable sources that say they two dogs are unrelated breeds? Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 04:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC).


 * Hi...

I referenced two separate breed standards of the Fédération Cynologique Internationale... one for the Newfoundland dog and one for the Landseer breed. How can these possibly considered "not authoritative", and how can the presence of two breed standards not be taken as proof of two separate breeds? The breed standard defines the breed. Or do you think its possible for two Newfoundland dogs to have a puppy of a different breed standard? If so I would feel sorry for "https://webzoom.freewebs.com/blackwatchnewfoundlands/Willow/Willow%20Pierre%20Pups/Day%201.jpg".

You also say that dog-learn.com cannot be considered authoritative, yet the article I reference itself has a list of 11 references... how many references are needed for it to be considered authoritative?

I can give you an long list of web sites of breeders of both Landseer ECT dogs and Newfoundland dogs that describe the differences between the two breeds (for example https://www.landseernorthwest.com/) but why bother? One website with 11 of its own references and the breed standards of the two dogs has to be sufficient.

Also, as my version of the article clearly states, the two breeds are most certainly NOT "unrelated", having only been separated by Fédération Cynologique Internationale in 1960.

Cheers! Grant — Preceding unsigned comment added by GTGussie (talk • contribs) 05:20, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello again, just because a kennel club or some breeders say something does not make it true, the breeders have an interest in trying to differentiate their brand whilst the kennel clubs collect their income from fees from breeders.
 * Both sources cited state they are the same dogs recognised separately in different continents by different kennel clubs. This is not unique to the Landseer/Newfoundland, take the Poodles, some kennel clubs state they are three separate breeds, some state they are one breed with three size varieties, others say four size varieties, and one (the UKC) says two breeds with one breed coming in two sizes varieties. We have to go with what the reliable reputable sources tell us. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 14:14, 25 June 2020 (UTC).

There seems to be little point in continuing this conversation. Dog breeds are defined by dog breeders through their kennel club organizations, and the world's most authoritative kennel club is the FCI. The FCI defines two separate breeds through their standards which I reference. Your statement that the "Landseer is a dog breed originating in Canada" is simply wrong, as the references in the article prove. If you replace the factual information I present with this misinformation I will not hesitate to report it as vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GTGussie (talk • contribs) 15:45, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , can I suggest you read WP:BRD, discussion is what we do here. So to continue the discussion, the sources state the dogs were first bred in Canada (as Newfoundlands) and a group of German enthusiasts decided to establish a breed club for this colouration. Do you have any sources that support your claims?
 * Also, I will not be deterred by threats, so I suggest you desist. Cavalryman (talk) 10:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC).
 * , it has been three days and you have not responded so I have edited the page again.
 * I have removed the www.dog-learn.com & Animal Genetics sources, the first fails RS and whilst it lists a bibliography everything cited also fails RS, the second only mentions the Landseer twice and does not make most of the claims attributed to it, I would be happy to discuss a more limited use of that source.
 * I have introduced two more sources, both specifically state the Landseer is a black and white Newfoundland, the latter discusses the separate recognition. Cavalryman (talk) 11:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC).

Sorry... you still haven't got it right. The ECT Landseer is not simply a black and white Newfoundland. It has a separate breed standard. You can not register a black and white Newfoundland as an ECT Landseer of vice versa. I honestly don't know how I can make that any clearer to you... there are TWO breeds called Landseer because the FCI defines them as such. They get to do that. You don't. Also, your edits completely removed all mention of the coat colour genetics without any apparent justification. Stripping factual and relevant information without justification is vandalism. I ask you to stop it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.173.134 (talk) 20:54, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * (I presume also ), we now have four sources from renowned dog authorities stating they are black and white Newfoundlands, three of which stating that have been separately recognised in Europe (the forth pre-dates kennel club recognition), you cannot just delete these sources and presume you are correct. Can you bring any sources to the discussion to back up what appears to be your own WP:Original research?
 * Re the genetics source, as I have stated above it makes two scant mentions of the Landseer, you have attributed content to that source that is not in it. Again I suggest you drop the vandalism rhetoric, I would welcome administrator scrutiny of the editing history here. I await your response.
 * Also, please sign your comments with four tildes, it adds a timestamped signature block to your comments that allows other editors to see who has aid what. Cavalryman (talk) 23:22, 29 June 2020 (UTC).
 * 70.67.173.134 /, it has been over a day and you have chosen not to respond so I have restored the previous version of the page with an additional sentence about the piebald colour allele. Please bring discussion to this talk page, the clear weight of contemporary sources on the subject state these are black and white Newfoundlands that are recognised separately by a couple of kennel clubs in Europe. On Wikipedia kennel club recognition does not trump Wikipedia policy. Cavalryman (talk) 00:27, 1 July 2020 (UTC).
 * Some more sources that support these are black & white Newfoundlands, the first discussing separate recognition:
 * David Alderton's Encyclopedia of dogs, on Landseers: "In most registries, this name means simply a Newfoundland in a piebald coat. FCI, however, recognizes a separate Landseer breed ..."
 * Don Harper's An identification guide to dog breeds, on Newfoundlands: "Both black and brown forms are now recognized, as well as a white and black form that is known as the Landseer after the famous Victorian artist Sir Edwin Landseer..."
 * Rebecca King's The world of dogs, on Newfoundlands: "The flat, dense, water-resistant coat is black, deep brown or white with black markings; the last variety is known as the Landseer, after the Victorian English artist Sir Edwin Landseer..."
 * Joan Palmer's Dog facts, on Newfoundlands: "It also became famous through the paintings of Sir Edwin Landseer (1807-73) from whom the Landseer variety, with black and white markings, take their name" and later "Colours permitted are black, brown and 'Landseer'."
 * I am sure there are more if I continue to search. Cavalryman (talk) 01:47, 1 July 2020 (UTC).

Sigh. None of these references have any relevance to the issue at hand. I would restate the relevant facts once again but you clearly have either no capacity or no willingness to learn about a topic you clearly know nothing about, but insist on presenting yourself as an authority. The photo you include as a Landseer Newfoundland is NOT a Newfoundland. It is an ECT Landseer, as you could learn by simply tracing the origin of the picture. I moved it to the correct box and put a picture of an actual Newfoundland in the Landseer Newfoundland box. You chose to reverse that correction without justification. I have no doubt you would simply continue to vandalize the Landseer (dog) page in this manner if I once again corrected your mistake, but why bother? I have not the energy or inclination to continue this debate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GTGussie (talk • contribs) 15:41, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * GTGussie, you may sigh all you like, unless you can present reliable sources for your additions to the page, they will be removed. All sources that have presented clearly state they are one and the same recognised separately on continental Europe, so it is irrelevant where that photo came from. I am no authority on these dogs, I am ensuring no WP:Original research is included and everything on the page is attributed to reliable sources. Cavalryman (talk) 00:24, 3 August 2020 (UTC).