Talk:Lanval

Roundtable?
I don't think Lanval is in fact one of Arthur's Knights of the Round Table, he is in fact a foreigner from another kingdom.TArmstrong 02:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The Roundtable is referenced in the poem, but it is not made clear whether or not it includes Lanval. Lanval is indeed a foreigner (Mes luin ert de sun heritage) but he is also a member of Arthur's household (De la meisnee le rei fu). The thrust of the beginning of the poem is that it is unjust that Lanval has received nothing, because he has served the king particularly faithfully (Li chevaliers dunt jeo vus di, / Ki tant aveit le rei servi…)Martin Turner 00:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I assume you're referring to the category? He's not explicitly stated as a member of the Round Table in the text, but that's the impression I always got. At any rate I'd rather it's kept in to keep it organized with other similar articles that include categories for both the work and the character (Cliges, Daniel von Blumenthal, etc.) It's not a terribly big deal, and it's just simpler than bumping him to the general category Category:Arthurian legend, which looks redundant with Category:Arthurian literature.--Cúchullain t/ c 04:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Description of the lady
The article currently says, "In contrast to Marie's other lais, such as Guigemar and Le Fresne, nothing is made of the mistress's intellectual or spritual qualities." But line 72 of the Burgess-Busby translation (2nd edition) describes her as "very worthy, wise and fair" ("tant est pruz e sage e bele") (pp. 74 and 141). This isn't so far removed from the description of the lady in Guigemar: "franche, curteise, bele e sage." Also, in a recent paper on Lanval ("Femmes et tere," 2004), Karen K. Jambeck has argued that Marie's descriptions of the lady actually place the latter somewhere between the material world and "an 'other' spiritual world" (p. 116). And finally, there's much in the story besides flat-out descriptions that speaks to the lady's savvy, ethical sense, ability to manipulate legal systems, etc. --estmere 21:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC) Probably "nothing is made of" overstates it. Nonetheless, it is true that there is an emphasis on the physicality and the cost. Would you like to edit to make this more nuanced? I haven't seem Femmes et tere -- do you have a reference? I agree strongly with the view, though, that she is a much more supernatural and in-control character. Perhaps you would be so kind as to add some of these into the main article.Martin Turner 18:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Plot and General Cleanup
Wow, there's a ton here that needs to go, and there's not even a general plot outline. I ( tried to do some initial hedge-clearing (it seems a student edited the page as lecture notes in a class), but we clearly still need to do more. If any Lanval scholars read this, please help actually write a good encyclopedia article for this!--Akhenaten0 (talk) 18:44, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with this assessment. General biographical content regarding the author which doesnt demonstrate high relevance to this particular work, Lanval, will be merged to Marie de France.--Kiyoweap (talk) 13:17, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Fluffyyellowchick's Revisions from 19:18 to 21:08, 6 October 2014. ✅
 * Mmtixier 00:01, 6 October 2013 ✅
 * Hunterholt ending 16:11, 6 October 2014 ✅


 * The sources used were rather bad. I can't find Pedersen source as actually published material, so I'm guessing these are lecture notes for students attending BYU. Joseph Black is also a just a brief preface appended in an anthology.
 * This particular lecturer delves into a "feminist" analaysis, which I am not saying is wrong, but I am not finding that this is highly representative of Lanval scholarship (based on googling), and is WP:UNDUE weight.
 * On the other hand, some of the topics such as examining "Lanval" in light of the contemporary legal system did correspond to several papers, so the act of deleting them (in favor of the BYU lecturer's POV) also constituted POV-pushing. --Kiyoweap (talk)

Encyclopedic, essay-like content removed from the article
One reading of the text introduces the theme that such a devoted love as Lanval's cannot exist within the society of the day. This is first symbolized when Lanval abandons his horse to go into the woods to see the lady. This represents his willingness to leave behind the world he knows and the world which makes him an outcast. As he forsakes the world he knows he is well rewarded by the unnamed lady who only asks that he keep their love a secret. His "love" becomes that more impassioned and he is willing to drift away from the world he knows. This is seen when Gawain invites him to spend time with him and the other knights—however it is not long before Lanval drifts off to be by himself. "Marie wishes us to realize, however, the tragedy that such an intensely personal love will always be at odds with the world, so dedicated to society of others. Consider how no other characters ever act or are seen alone in the poem. The only other valiant character, Gawain, is nevertheless always described as being part of a company, even when they are nameless, as though to suggest he cannot act without his buddies. Arthur cannot decide Lanval's fate without calling together his men, who then request that they contact more men to facilitate the process."

Another reading can be seen from a sexual standpoint. Marie de France's story begins with a young knight of the Arthurian court named Lanval. Lanval is a "king's son" who feels he has great potential because of lineage. He is a knight possessed of great qualities including both beauty and valor, and as a result is envied by many other knights who would not have grieved had he suffered misfortune. Arthur never grants him anything, despite his loyal service, and neither do the other knights make any effort to help him. As he was born far away and has long since spent his inheritance, Lanval lives a sad, lonely life. In search of fulfillment and help from his "sorrows", Lanval saddles a horse and rides off into the forest in search of enlightenment as to the meaning of his life. Marie de France's understanding of Lanval's, and most adolescents', psychology is impressive. She continues to follow this psychology and Lanval's transition from boy to man throughout her lais, but does it in a more symbolic and cryptic form. Lanval enters the forest in search of something. The forest is a common representation of the unknown or discovery that we later see in early American literature, and that still exists today (Peterson). Once Lanval enters the forest, it is clear the forest truly represents discovery. As he enters the forest he finds a nameless woman who "[grants] him her love and her body", facilitating his transition from boyhood to manhood. However, this relationship that Lanval has with the unknown woman is more like that of masturbation. It is a way of self-gratification and done in secret. Though this relationship he feels more like a man but is unable to tell other the source of his confidence. This transition comes strictly from finding his sexuality, which will later be threatened by the very court that caused him his previous turmoil.

By realizing the whole purpose of Lanval's journey to the woods, and his new found sexuality we also understand the purpose of the unnamed woman. Her whole existence is based upon Lanval and awaking his sex drive. This gives great insight into how many women felt throughout this time period, but also how they were viewed: as necessary objects for the future generation. By the end of the poem Lanval's ultimate lover still has no name. Nevertheless, she shows Lanval mercy by saving him from a terrible fate, despite his having broken his only promise to her. Many people view Lanval as being a rather revolutionary story for its time in regard to feminism because of the unnamed woman's heroic ending. She saves Lanval instead of the traditional knight who saves the damsel in distress.Though this is one possible solution, it is also important to remember that this woman is no more than a nameless beauty with no personality. Her only role within the story is to gratify Lanval, but she also has the power to withhold that gratification. This is what is most different and makes steps to changing the game of romance so to say. Now women have a voice, though not much of one. They might not be able to simply refuse a man, but they are now able to set conditions through which men can obtain their gratification. Here Marie has set women on a pedestal causing them to appear more desirable while also setting parameters in order to achieve that beauty. Another point of interest is when she comes to rescue Lanval and comes riding upon a palfrey and putting Lanval behind her. The story ends with "No one ever hear[ing] another word of him".

Lanval has a fairy-tale like simplicity, and leaves the realm of reality for a "happily ever after". Avalon remains the utopic place accessed only through rejection of and by the real world. As readers of Lanval in the 21st century, we only have one reaction: happiness, and maybe relief at the justice the story offers Lanval.

There is a parallel between Lanval's relationship with Arthur, and with lady. Lanval was a foreigner, and Arthur would not give him gifts despite Lanval being his vassal. This was a break of the traditional lord and vassal relationship, and Arthur possibly did it to ensure that Lanval would not leave once he had enough money. However, Lanval swears undying love to his lady, breaks his promise to her in order to prove his love for her. This is a break from courtly love, in that Lanval's love is not adulterous. His love forgives him, and even takes him to Avalon in contrast to Arthur's unwillingness to fulfill a lord's obligations.

Form, context, and conventions
Just a minor note: The section on form, context, and conventions states: "Marie's lays, despite the fairy tale atmosphere, all feature ordinary humans, except for Lanval which features an immortal "fairy mistress" from the Otherworld (Avalon) and able to confer everlasting life on her lover." This is incorrect. There are other supernatural characters in Marie de France's works. The protagonist of Marie de France's lay Bisclavret is a werewolf, and the male love interest of her lay Yonec is an otherworldly man who can turn into a hawk. I'm not sure if this assertion should be removed or expanded upon to compare Lanval to these other texts — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.234.34.175 (talk) 19:48, 1 June 2022 (UTC)