Talk:Larrikin

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term larrikinism as: the habits and practices of larrikins, first cited in 1870 in the Australian (Richomond, Vict.) 10 Sept. 3/3 (Morris) in the statement "a slight attempt at 'larrikinism' was manifested". In the same source, the etymology of larrikin is noted as "uncertain" but the editors make a guess that the term has its origins in English dialect, citing the Supplement English Dialect Dictionary, editor J. Wright, 1898 - 1905, where the term is reported based on contacts with informants in Warwickshire and Worcestershire as referring to "a mischievous or frolicsome youth".

The citation discredits the idea that the term arose from a Irish mispronounciation of larking as "a figment." See p. 667 Volume VIII The Oxford English Dictionary. Claredon Press, Oxford, England. 2000.

See also discussion in the Ozwords Site at http://www.anu.edu.au/andc/ozwords/June_98/. --Nancyterry 15:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware of a reference to "larrikins" dating from 1879. Is this late-19th century? jguk 8 July 2005 17:40 (UTC)

Yes. See 'Rocks Push' link for the 'larrikin' gang working the Rocks from 1870s-1890s.

POV watch
It appears that the commends in this article

Apart from the etymology and evolution sections, this article smacks of point-of-view. Who decided that this list of people fit the criteria of a larrikin -- no references -- and none to be found I'll bet, certainly none to define larrikin in such clear terms as it is defined here. Suggest erasing the entire section I've flagged as POV. &mdash; Donama 04:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I am sure suitable sources will be found, give it a couple of weeks :). Grumpyyoungman01 13:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * And uh, why is Steve Irwin listed as (disuputed)? Who's disputing it? Because one columnist said it, and everyone else got mad at her - that puts it in the list with a disputed tag? Adam Marx Squared 05:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this article offers an interesting discussion on the subject, but is this really the place for it? My own perceptions of the subject would be quite different. I would be very interested in any "authority" for calling Kerry Packer a larrikin. MrsPlum 08:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Larrikin
There's a mention of Ireland on the article page and its pronounciation. Just to point out that the word "ladhraicín or laidhricín is pronounced just like "larrikin". It means "little finger" or "pinky" in Irish. Dunno how relevant that is but anyways ... - Alison&#9997; 23:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I see a lot of evidence for Larrikin being of Cornish origin: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/40850.html - Lord Manley http://lipas.uwasa.fi/hut/english/courses/ENG.169.html http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:iXIIJakVKz8J:www.heronair.com.au/newsletter/newsletter.pdf+larrikin+cornish+-%22larrikin+love%22&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=9 http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-85618.html http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060627134009AAgkgy1 http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/archive/index.php/t-171578.html

Dave Hughes and Steve Irwin
Dave Hughes is definately not a larrikin, he is a comedian and I find him funny. But larrikin has to be a bit more, something daring like what the Chaser group do every week. I have nothing against Steve Irwin and he may be a larrikin, I am not sure. But it is far from obvious that he is a larrikin. It would be good, but probably a hard task for someone to come up with evidence such as an illustration or anecdote of his alleged larrikinism. An asertion from somebody other than a relevant academic that he is a larrikin is not sufficient. John Howard and probably many others have called him a larrikin in recent days but politicians say that all the time about popular people. Grumpyyoungman01 12:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

If enough people say something does it make it true? Oh dear me wikipedia, we are slowly catching on to how futile it is to approximate the truth.

- Ip address logged.

I reject your position with the following example... Steve Erwin did a spot on the Channel Nine Footy Show.. Where he had brought on to the show a snake (Python to be exact) and placed it around two of the presenters shoulders and after a small amount of time squeezed a thin plastic bag of peanut butter until it popped and let out its content onto the Head presenters shoulder.. and began to apologise .. making out that the python had defecated on the presenters shoulder... This was direct act to represent what Australians acknowledge as a person being or acting in a "Larrikin" way.. This would mean that Steve was a Larrikin and disprove your point of view. Please see You tube ref video on the following link.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W88-WtJqtbc

Just a suggestion
Perhaps a little more academic research needs to go into this page. I'd suggest starting with Sean Glynn's 1970 'Urbanisation in Australian History' and take it from there.

Some points from Glynn's work you all might like to consider:

Quoting from page 64 onwards -

"The street gang was a common phenomenon in cities throughout the world and the larrikin was perhaps the Australian version of the English hooligan, the American 'Bowery Boy' or the French 'Apache'. The first Sydney Larrikins were 'currency lads', known in the 1840's as 'the Cabbage Tree Mob'. The gang, or 'push', which the larrikin moved in, existed primarily for amusement which varied from violence, rowdyism and petty crime to dances, picnics and excursions. In the 'push', quite distinctive patterns of speech, dress and behaviour developed.  At one time larrikins appear to have favoured a dress which featured, for women, feathers and high-heel shoes and for men 'a short coat with a velvet collar, an open vest, a narrow neck-tie, bell bottomed trousers, and a soft felt hat with a broad stiff brim' (Burley, E.C., 'Australian Life in Town and Country, London (1905) p.86).  But by the 1890's this particular distinctiveness had largely disappeared. Nevertheless, from the early 1890's larrikinism began to attract an increading amount of attention.

The term 'larrikin' is of obscure origin and was used somewhat indiscriminately and applied equally to playful youths, teenagers, gangs, louts, loafers, rouges, thugs and tearaways. Certainly larrikins were drawn from the lowest social strata in Australian cities. While their rands included professional thieves and people living off casual or immoral earnings, the majority were almost certainly wage-earners in more respectable full or part-time employment. In its most particular sense the term 'larrikin' was applied to members of the street gangs which harassed and terrorised respectable citizens in streets and public placed especially after dark."

and so on....

Larrikins in Australain Literature: Consider the works of C.J. Dennis 'Songs of a Sentimental Bloke' (1915), 'The Moods of Ginger Mick' (1916), 'Doreen' (1917), 'Digger Smith' (1918). Louis Stone 'Jonah' Sydney (1911). Edward Dyson. Early Bulliten publications (negative press for the Larrikin).

Works worth reviewing: Burley above. Pratt, Ambrose 'The king of the Rocks' London (1900) and 'The Great Push Experiment' London (1902). Chisholm, AH. 'The Making of a Sentimental Bloke' Melbourne (1946) and so on...

This is just from a few pages of Glynn's book. I would also recommend: Historians such as Richard White (starting with his 'Inventing Australia' Sydney (1981)) and books such as Whitlock, Gillian and Carter (eds) 'Images of Australia: AN Intoductory Reader in Australia Studies' St. Lucia (1992)

Literary characters suchs a Ginger Mick and Jonah must be included as examples of Australian Larrikins. I am not convinced some of the others included in the example list should be there.

Obviously the Australian concept of the Larrikin has developed from Glynn's description, and further reading would highlight how the concept of the larrikin has developed over time. Australians still refer to Larrikins; "The Australian" refering to Steve Irwin: "He was a larrikin: a person who pays little attention to what others think about them, who breaks the rules of social convention and is prone to outlandish behaviour. The thing about Irwin is that he did it with crocodiles." though Irwin is a very different Larrikin to say Stone's 1911 'Jonah'. To fully grasp the concept of the larrikin, because it is such a loosly used term in Australian jargen, I think all of this needs to be covered, and some more.

Also, the fact that the Larrikin is often associated with perceptions of Australian national character, nation image etc, should probably be covered. A historical overview of Larrikism would help here too.

Anyways - this is just a start. I hope it helps and leads to much more. -nickers78. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.240.69.164 (talk) 23:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there needs to be a lot more academic rigour in this article. The origins of 'larrikinism' involves an awful lot more rape and murder than this article currently implies. 159.196.211.34 (talk) 02:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Evolving definition of larrikinism?
Manning Clark wrote this about larrikins:
 * "Every Sunday morning in Sydney [in the 1870s/1880s] about a dozen hulking big fellows, devoid of coat or vest, in a half-intoxicated condition, leaned against the wall of a public house, smoking dirty black pipes, expectorating over the footpaths and insulting every respectable person who sought to walk in the public's pleasure-ground. No female could stroll in those gardens without 'encountering a volley of filthy invective and indecent observations'. No policeman could arrest a man in Sydney or Melbourne without running the risk of being set upon by a gang of larrikins. Larrikins went on board the late ferry boats in Sydney on Saturday and Sunday nights and molested the passengers. They burst open the doors of churches, smashed the windows, drank the communion wine and defaced all the sacred objects they could lay their hands on. By the middle of the 1880s larrikins in both cities were wearing their own distinctive clothes." Etc... (Manning Clark's History of Australia, Michael Cathcart's abridged version, ISBN 0-7126-6205-7, p.356).

Contrast that with the contemporary use of the word, including in press headlines: "Larrikin PM who sacked himself, dies at 90", Sydney Morning Herald, 2002; "ALP's reforming larrikin dead at 75", The Australian, 2007. Or the description of Australian soldiers today as "larrikins". And I think John Howard praised Steve Irwin by calling him a "larrikin". Clearly the meaning is somewhat different now from the original larrikins. Or the present's reading of the past, and the application of the past to the present, have changed. ;) Aridd (talk) 22:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Some more on early larrikinism, this time from Geoffrey Blainey's A Land Half-Won (ISBN 0-7251-0411-2), p.143:
 * "[In the 1840s] in Sydney the young larrikins loitered around the doors of Sydney theatres and made a point of molesting any man who wore a respectable black hat by tugging it down over his eyes. Known by their hats [made from the indigenous cabage-tree palm], the street loiterers were called the 'Cabbage-tree Mob'. In their skylarking they were early nationalists, the spiritual ancestors of rowdy larrikins at the big cricket grounds in the 1970s." Aridd (talk) 13:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Heath Ledger a larrkin... MY ARSE
I don't thin kHeath Ledger should be in the section of larrakins of the 21st century simply because he wasn't. He was famous, yes; a great and daring actor, yes; a grumpy arse, yes but a larrakin? NO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skam127 (talk • contribs) 08:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Larrikin and New Zealand
Why is there no reference to New Zealand in this article? It is very commonly used here, especially in the South Island. I am not saying that it originated here (for it is quite possibly an influence of Australian migrants), but I do believe that it needs to be mentioned. The article seems to portray that 'larrikin' is only used by Aussies.

Which is silly, really.

Cheers

Mackzo (talk) 10:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Etymology
The article presents two sourced etymologies for the word.

Until my recent edit, it also said:


 * The term larrikin originated in the "Black Country" dialect found in the area near Birmingham, the English West Midland councils of Sandwell, Dudley and Walsall. The term larrikin originally meant the tongue; calling someone a larrikin implied they were using their tongue, or were "gobby"- mouthy. The term is no longer in common use but was used in previous centuries.


 * A larrykin was often used in war to describe an Australian soldier who often rushed in to help a fellow soldier without thinking things through. This often ended as life-sacrificing heroic acts to save a friend, but were very brave actions.


 * While the origins of the Australian word 'larrikin' are not known for sure, it has been suggested that it may have arisen from the Irish pronunciation of the word 'larking', which is now taken as the verb form of 'Larrikin'. 

If authoritative sources say any of these, then it can be put back into the article. Till then, no thanks. -- Hoary (talk) 09:22, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Delete lists of larrikins?
Someone has, quite justifiably, queried the article's lists as original research. We might further note that there is a big problem of verification, and maybe also that it is not Wikipedia's place to be a directory of POV classifications, whether the subjects be notable or otherwise. Also, there is seemingly no limit to the extension of such lists over future generations! I therefore propose deletion of these arbitrary lists. Any content of this nature about individuals must pass the usual tests of notability within the context, verification by means of a sensible paragraph, with reliable citations, etc. Any comments? Bjenks (talk) 04:29, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The whole "Larrikin" section appears to be original research. I see no problem with the lists remaining, as long as the entries are properly cited. At a glance, I'm sure it would be possible to find decent sources for many of the people named. But based on what is there now, I also favour deletion. Better still would be a succinct paragraph naming the clearest, well-cited examples.Doctorhawkes (talk) 22:13, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It will not be good enough for citations to take the form "Bob Hawke said Paul Hogan was a larrikin", etc, etc, no matter how widely and reliably reported. Would we wish to tolerate WP lists of bludgers, f*wits, morons, assholes, bastards or similar-termed indignities, meant affectionately or otherwise on a POV basis? Not really. The Macquarie Dictionary notes that the primary meaning of "larrikin"--a lout or hoodlum--is obsolescent. Therefore, I think we have to acknowledge the evolved usages, "a mischievous young person" and (3) "an uncultivated, rowdy but good hearted person". The Oxford Modern Australian Dictionary adopts the paraphrases (1) a young urban rough, a hooligan; (2) a mischief-making youth, a troublemaker; (3) A person who acts with apparent disregard for social or political conventions. Both sets of definitions clearly exclude our current lists of 20th- and 21st-century larrikins, who might more aptly be described as "silly old buggers" (in Bob Hawke's celebrated words). In short, we need to acknowledge the word's evolved connotations, while NOT going down the road of creating lists. If any particular person is both relevant and notable, a referenced sentence or paragraph could be composed about that person. Bjenks (talk) 03:28, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm coming very late to this discussion so forgive me for that. I agree with the above statement that an unverified list of supposed larrikins is bordering on original research, and any unreferenced list is more a matter of opinion than anything else.  However, providing a bit of historical context to the term "larrikin" (in both its changing meaning and current usage) would be of help to newcomers.  Though I entirely agree that these have to be referenced and verified.  For example, a quick search of Trove using the terms "larrikin" and "sentimental bloke" returns some 169 entries from various newspapers. And I'm sure I could find more examples if I searched harder.  Including these on the current page might border on original research but I think would be beneficial in expanding the piece.  if I add any examples I'll be sure to add the references. Perry Middlemiss (talk) 21:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC)