Talk:Larry Davis (born 1966)

The article...
The article gives this case entirely from the point of view of the prosecution: police came to arrest Larry Davis on murder charges and a shootout began. The defense contention, that Larry Davis acted in self defense when corrupt police came to assassinate him, is only mentioned but given no weight at all. This is inappropriate because the jury agreed with the defense view, not the prosecution's, in the first 3 of Larry Davis' 4 trials. Most importantly, Larry Davis was ACQUITTED of charges of attempted murder of the police in the raid.

I tried to correct where I could, but the entire article is based only on articles from the NY Times, so I'd have to use a credit card to check the sources (most of those articles are only available to registered users, and you must give credit card info to register)!

Zahzuhzaz (talk) 13:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Look at previous versions (back in October it looked far more balanced). And I would be careful about a "both sides" presentation. If he robbed and killed the drug dealers on behalf of the cops, with a weapon they provided, neither side's story would have been close to the truth. Jd2718 (talk) 13:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree that the article gives the case entirely from the view of the prosecution. I used the NY Times coverage to build out the article as the only reliable and complete source available.  The Times has always been very balanced where crimes and criminal trials are concerned, and I bent over backwards to be the same.  The Times archives from 1987 to the present are now free as far as I understand, try it, but either way I think editors have an obligation to read the material cited by reliable sources before altering what the  sources say.  --CliffC (talk) 16:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Why is the word criminal after his name? I do not see criminal after Charles Manson... It should be removed. cy ohBornontuesday (talk) 05:15, 14 September 2016 (UTC)--Bornontuesday (talk) 05:15, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

--Bornontuesday (talk) 05:15, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Move back to Larry Davis
Starting with his birthdate to his conversion to Islam to where he is now, this is a biography of someone with one major event in his life. It would have been better had you proposed the move and waited for some discussion. Can you move it back? Jd2718 (talk) 13:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * A good point of comparison would be Kitty Genovese. Jd2718 (talk) 14:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

1. The article never mentions his conversion to Islam, the word "Islam" does not appear at all. The phrase "who changed his name to Adam Abdul-Hakeem" is not a discussion of his conversion to Islam.

2. Look at the Kitty Genovese article. It begins with a (brief) section called "Life", that places her in a family with a history. The so-called Larry Davis article begins with a section called "Background" that provides a background to the shootout (from the perspective of the police). No aspects of Larry Davis' life are touched upon, except within the context of the shootout and subsequent trials.

3. Kitty Genovese is dead. Larry Davis, now Adam Abdul-Hakeem, is living. Different rules apply. I did a lot of reading of Wikipedia policy for biography of living persons, and it stressed aggressive action:

I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons.[2]

–Jimmy Wales

An article that claims to be a biography, yet has no life history, and is titled "Larry Davis (Criminal)" when Larry Davis' notoriety derives not from his criminal life, but from his shootout with police (which he was acquitted of) is presenting a living person in a misleading, negative light. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zahzuhzaz (talk • contribs) 16:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That was helpful, thank you. Jd2718 (talk) 16:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

On my referring to Davis's name change rather than to his actual conversion to Islam, that was a deliberate omission on my part because the only citation I found to his conversion was in a Times article with the lead "As Larry Davis lay on a gurney a few feet away, a Manhattan judge ruled last night that the 23-year-old inmate must be returned to Bellevue Hospital Center for new tests to determine whether he has been partly paralyzed by beatings by correction officers or is faking his condition" and quite frankly I was tired of working on the article; using a citation with that lead would have called for a wide expansion to cover Davis's history during his incarceration, please feel free to source and expand it beyond the events of his conviction and sentence. I kept away from any "early days" material because I did not see "Larry Davis (criminal)" (a name the article already had when I came across it, one I never cared for) as a biography and any early-days-of material I found dealt only with his dropping out of school or expanded on his juvenile arrests or family criminal history. I have no objection to naming the article something other than "Larry Davis (criminal)" as long as it's discussed here and fits in somehow on the Larry Davis disambiguation page. --CliffC (talk) 17:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

3. Kitty Genovese is dead. Larry Davis, now Adam Abdul-Hakeem, is living. No longer true. --Zahzuhzaz (talk) 13:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I notice that the page has been moved back - without discussion. I justified making the original move without discussion, based on Wikipedia policy. What is the justification for reverting without discussion?

The news articles on his death highlight what an inappropriate title "Larry Davis (criminal)" is. I've seen no headlines titled "Larry Davis, criminal, killed in prison". The headline that informed me of Larry Davis' death was the AP release: "NYC Shootout Fugitive Killed in Prison". "NYC Shootout Fugitive" immediately shouted "Larry Davis" to me.

Here are some alternate titles (taken from recent headlines) that more clearly disambiguate than Larry Davis (criminal):

Larry Davis (NYC shootout fugitive) - http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5geRm4kZ0wHofuU_YQM01ml4F1BaAD8UUJ8PG0

Larry Davis (NYPD manhunt survivor) - http://gothamist.com/2008/02/21/infamous_surviv.php

Larry Davis (police shooter) - http://www.nysun.com/article/71659

Since at least two of us agree that Larry Davis (criminal) is a poor choice, I hope we can get this fixed. --Zahzuhzaz (talk) 22:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that any off these three are better tittles than "Larry Davis (criminal)". For various reasons including, more informative, and a less negative perspective. (not defending criminals) --190.29.142.6 (talk) 01:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Softening language
"The defense contended that Davis feared for his life and acted in self-defense. Without producing any evidence , they charged that Bronx police were corrupt and involved in the drug trade, and that the police had opened fire first" I see that the bolded line was removed. Do we have a source one way or the other for it's inclusion or removal? --Knulclunk (talk) 15:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, in the NY Times article Larry Davis Cleared In the 1986 Slayings Of 4 Drug Suspects, already carefully cited at http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEED7103CF937A35750C0A96E948260&scp=2&sq=larry%2Bdavis+evidence+defense&st=nyt we have
 * "During the trial the defense lawyers also maintained, without attempting to prove, that Mr. Davis had been recruited into a drug ring by rogue police officers in the Bronx precincts and that he thus possessed knowledge dangerous to the police."
 * I think "without attempting to prove" approximates "Without producing any evidence" without violating the Times copyright; throughout development of the article I have been careful about copyright.  After things settle down following this undiscussed, and wrong, article move I'll restore the phrase if it hasn't been fixed already.  I don't think our new editor will find much in this article that's uncited, and I encourage him/her to read the citations thoroughly before rewriting anything, especially by supplying his own syntheses such as "His ability to survive the shootout, though outnumbered...". --CliffC (talk) 16:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You'll be inviting references to show that it was a widely held belief at the time. I assume you don't really want to go there. Jd2718 (talk) 16:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sure, why not show more about the beliefs that were held at the time and who held them, so long as they come from reliable sources, I know there are more such references in the Times. (Times search shows 215 articles containing larry+davis police today, so what's already cited in the article is only about 10% of what's out there, there are likely still a few unmined nuggets for everyone.) --CliffC (talk) 20:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV issues
Please discuss NPOV issues here. I see there is no mention of the police union or mayor's response to the acquittal. That seems to be a part of the history as well. --Knulclunk (talk) 15:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. On the police-shootings acquittal, article "In the Streets They Defend Larry Davis" at http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE2DF1731F932A15752C1A96E948260&scp=3&sq=larry%2Bdavis+mayor+&st=nyt reports favorable community responses, and then
 * "In other parts of the city, some officials expressed outrage at the verdict. Others chose to say nothing. "The jury's decision is the most horrendous decision ever rendered in my 23 years as a police officer," said Thomas J. Scotto, president of the Detectives Endowment Association, in a statement. "This decision will upset all law-enforcement officers throughout the United States."


 * "Mayor Koch said he was shocked by the decision and said, "Every policeman in New York - white, black, Hispanic or Asian - must be horrified."


 * The responses could be reworked for copyright issues and incorporated whenever someone gets ambitious. --CliffC (talk)

"Background" section POV tag
The Background section provides the prosecution's account of the background to the shooting (which two juries rejected), but not the defense's account (which the jury accepted). Zahzuhzaz (talk) 17:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

"allegedly" in first sentence
In the sentence
 * "Larry Davis (born May 28, 1966), who changed his name to Adam Abdul-Hakeem in 1989, shot six New York City police officers on November 19, 1986 when they raided his sister's Bronx, New York apartment, allegedly to arrest him on charges of murdering five drug dealers."

the word "allegedly" as currently positioned is incorrect because it is undisputed that the police were there to arrest him. I suggest that the phrase "for allegedly murdering" has similar meaning to "on charges of murdering" and uses "allegedly", so would you consent to a change to
 * "Larry Davis (born May 28, 1966), who changed his name to Adam Abdul-Hakeem in 1989, shot six New York City police officers on November 19, 1986 when they raided his sister's Bronx, New York apartment, to arrest him for allegedly murdering five drug dealers."

? --CliffC (talk) 02:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That is correct. I support the new wording. --Knulclunk (talk) 02:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have removed the word "allegedly" from the lead. The officers were there to arrest him on murder charges, correct? If there are sources to the contraire, lets present them. Thanks, --70.109.223.188 (talk) 14:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Copied from a police newsgroup
''Originally posted there some time ago, reposted today. I think it's chilling. Don't ask me to interpret any of it, I'm a civilian. --CliffC (talk) 03:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)''

It seemed like so long ago. (I've forgotten some of the names of those involved and I don't feel like pulling out the scrap book so I'll do my best to get it right from memory, well honestly I don't want to see pictures of me 100 lbs ago.)

First....A few days before the shootout the squad and ESU hit a spot on Washington Ave and LD fled out the back of the location which wasn't covered and he ran up 3rd

Second...On the day of the shootout ESU and the squad tac'd up in front of the 42 SH. I followed the REP with Rick M. in it who I knew from the 44. At the location ESU and the guys from the squad went in and we parked at the N/E/C/O 168 and Fulton so we could see the front door to the building. I saw a guy I knew I think he was in 41 crime doing outside security at the location and I saw some other crime guys going down an alley on the north side of the building. It was definitely a squad operation.

Third...13 comes over 7th division radio from CU....CU says it's anonymous and unverified.....central is advised units are 84 ESU doing a warrant do you have a call back....by now were at the front door of the building.....central says it's from citywide. WTF

Fourth....The firestorm that had started in the lobby now spills onto the street with all it's hell and fury....13 central keep em coming numerous MOS shot. I'm foggy on who was out first Mary B. the ESU Sgt or Tommy (Irish last name) from the DB, at any rate Mary and Tommy are taken across the street to Bx Leb Fulton (the ER was on Fulton Ave back then) the ESU Sgt was removed but I forget which hospital I don't remember seeing him at Bx Leb later that night. Some guy in a cowboy hat took Mary and/or Tommy across to the hospital.

Fifth...The shooting is still going on in the lobby/apartment. The building has a front door at street level then you walk up 6 maybe 7 steps to another door and the lobby so from the street you really can't get a good look all the way into the lobby. When you got to the top of the stairs LD's apartment was all the way to the back of the lobby with the door on the right. A plain clothes guy I didn't know but had on a raid jacket was at the front door of the building which he had chocked open. Just as we got to the top step you could see everybody shooting into the rear corner of the lobby then a guy in a suit just appeared out of nowhere with a gun in his hand and was holding something to his forehead since we didn't know who he was we told him to drop the gun I'll never forget how I didn't hear a thing from the time it left his hand till it hit the ground...it seemed like it took forever to hit the ground and when it did the first thing I heard was the report from a shotgun. Somebody started yelling he was a cop, I think it was the guy in the raid jacket, so I grabbed the guy by the collar ran down the stairs and literally threw him out onto the street. He pulled away what turned out to be a handkerchief from his forehead and said, "I'm a cop I'm shot" I remember looking at him and saying "Holy Shite he's still walking and he has a f*cking hole in his head" I found out later it was Capt Ridge (or Dodge) something like that and he got hit in the head with I think one pellet but the way it opened up it looked like I could stick my thumb in it.

Sixth...All of sudden there is more yelling and screaming from the lobby on top of the yelling and screaming that was already going on. We went back in and when I got to the top of the stairs bang an ESU guy comes flying out and runs smack into me I take one look at him and said to myself " Oh my God his f*cking face is shot off". He's looking for his REP and telling me that he doesn't have the keys and he can't see. The Capt and the ESU cop are removed to Bx Leb ER which was 400 or 500 feet away. Inside the ER the ESU cop and the Capt are put into the triage room which was to the left when you went in, across the hall from triage and in what we called the suture room was Mary B. lying on her stomach propped up on her arms when she saw us she just closed her eyes. I realized then I knew who she was because she had been married at one time to I believe Big Mike O'Grady (RIP) who I had worked with. I didn't talk to her because of the severe injury to her mouth. I then went back to the triage where they were cleaning up the ESU cops face. When they washed the blood off I could see his face was still there but he had numerous pellet wounds especially to his eye area. I then recognized it was Johnny O'H. I knew him when he worked in the 48.

Seventh...Back in front of the building ESU was trying to get a humongous ballistic wall on wheels down a very small alleyway. Chief Ryan is calling for aviation to light up an alley but the bird they sent didn't have a light. 13's are still coming in but the shooting has stopped and we can't find one Det. He's on a landline but can't give his location. I remember having a beer at Ryan's Daughter with an old friend Mike McCrory (sp?) now Ret from Truck 1 when I was in the academy and he said to me always be aware of your surroundings I said what do you mean and he said if somebody came in to rob this place would you know what address to give to 911. Of course I didn't know the building number, even though I had been in the place 100's of times. I finally got so used to glancing at building numbers and remembering the door color of every apartment I went into it became second nature. After some time the Det. was located and it turns out he was less then a hundred feet from the front door to the building the whole time.

Eighth...In the end what happened. From what I remember during the GO-15, trial prep and testimony not all of which jived it was like NYCTPF said. The squad was in charge. LD went into the bedroom which was catty-corner from the apartment door and started shooting from inside the unlit bedroom. Johnny O who was standing outside of the apartment got hit from pellets that ricocheted off the door frame same with the Capt. ESU Sgt was hit in the leg. Mary B. Was hit in the mouth below her nose and Tommy was I believe hit below the ear behind the jaw bone and the bullet came out his mouth. His carotid artery was nicked either by the bullet or the surgeons scalpel and came extremely close to bleeding to death. At trial Kuntsler and his hot little babe convinced the jury that the cops fired first so therefore it was self defense and since it was the Bronx the jury said your damn right it was self defense. LD was later convicted in another case and is currently incarcerated in Sullivan County and is alleged to be paralyzed from a beating he received he now goes by the name Adam Abdul Hakeem. So it goes.

Definitely not "undisputed" that police were there to arrest Davis in shootout
I'm not sure what the evidence for the claim that "it is undisputed that the police were there to arrest him" made by an editor above is. In fact a jury believed that the police had come to murder him, and acquitted Davis on the grounds that he acted in self defense:"The defense apparently won its case because it had convinced the jurors that the raid was staged to mask an attempt to assassinate Mr. Davis for his knowledge of police drug corruption and that he 'quite properly' fired in self-defense.NYT 11-21-88" The lead should at a minimum reflect that there are conflicting claims (Davis was also acquitted of the murders the police claimed to have been there to arrest him for.

It has also has reported that police claim to have been at the apartment to "question" Davis, not arrest him:"Last November, at least 30 police officers surrounded a building in the South Bronx where, they say, they hoped to question a man about the murders, two weeks earlier, of four reputed drug dealers in an apartment. NYTime October 12, 1987""Officers had gone to the Bronx building to question Davis in connection with the slayings. The Associated Press, December 8, 1986, 'Reports: Davis Gun Linked to Murders, Cop Shooting'"

"The Nov. 19, 1986 shoot-out, in which six police officers were wounded but Davis escaped unharmed from a Bronx apartment, set off the manhunt. Police said they had gone to the apartment to question Davis about the deaths of the alleged drug dealers. assoc Press, March 4, 1988, 'Jury Acquits Davis In Shootings Of Four Suspected Drug Dealers'"

Police acknowldge they were there to question, not arrest: A lawyer for Mr. Davis, William M. Kunstler, said in an interview last Thursday and has maintained in court, that what the police have called an attempt to question Mr. Davis at his sister's apartment was in fact a raid meant to kill him in order to suppress his client's knowledge of police involvement in drug sales in the Bronx.

Mr. Kunstler said, and the police have acknowledged, that although Mr. Gray provided a positive identification of Mr. Davis within hours of the incident at Jerome Avenue, his client was not named a suspect in any crime, and no warrant for his arrest was issued until after the Nov. 19 shootout at his sister's apartment.

''On Friday, officials from the Bronx District Attorney's office and the Police Department deflected questions about why no warrant had been issued for Mr. Davis's arrest after the Jerome Avenue incident. Each agency referred questions to the other.''

''A senior police official, who asked not to be identified, said no charges were immediately brought against Mr. Davis because "once you move to introduce an accusatory instrument you lose the benefit of being able to talk to that person." The official said Mr. Kunstler, in drawing attention to these questions, was "really trying to create confusion in the case" and said prosecutors must "stick to the simple issues of guilt or innocence on the individual charges" against Mr. Davis.'' NYTimes, October 18, 1987

Ultimately, a jury did not believe the police had gone there to arrest Davis. Why would Wikipedia give the police version, when that version ios dispouted at best, and likely false, based on trial outcomes? Boodlesthecat (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for providing more material about this case. I have tried to copy edit for NPOV. --72.209.11.186 (talk) 22:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Broken citation
5th citation is invalid. Link is to a non functioning website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.105.223 (talk) 21:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It has been replaced, thanks. --CliffC (talk) 22:57, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Raid and Escape
I found a major issue with this section - "At about 8:30 p.m. 15 officers surrounded the building and 12 others entered; nine of these went to the three-room apartment of Davis's sister Regina Lewis and seven entered it. Davis, his girlfriend, his sister and her husband were in the apartment along with four children. Lewis's two infant children were asleep in the bedroom at the rear." The 2 infants (or at least 2 kids, not exactly sure) were outside playing, the only people inside were 2 kids, Larry and Regina. Also Larry shot first according to his "fugitive Criminals" episode which was basically a documentary made with the help of the cops who were on the case. Irunongames •  play  15:44, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, the 1986 New York Times article cited for that paragraph gives the details on who was present:
 * "Inside, Mrs. Lewis [Regina], 23, was in the kitchen talking on the telephone; in the living room were her husband, Joseph Lewis, their son, Joseph Jr., 3, Mr. Davis's girlfriend, identified only as Melanie or Melody, and their son, Larrima, three months old. In the single bedroom at the back were Mr. Davis and two of his sister's children, Rayvon, 2, and Crystal, five months."
 * I watched enough of the show at the hulu link to see that it says it is a "dramatization" "based on actual events", so we shouldn't expect historical accuracy. Probably the producer didn't want to pay two extra adults and two extra children to be standing around doing nothing when the shooting started.  --CliffC (talk) 20:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Status of his alleged assassin?
Per the main article, he was murdered on Feb 20, 2008, by "another inmate, Luis Rosado, 42." That would have given Mr. Rosado a birthdate in 1966.

First, there doesn't seem to be any update more recent than his grand jury indictment back in July, 2008. More interestingly the NYS inmate locator web site doesn't show any Luis Rosado born in 1966.

ROSADO, LUIS 	MALE 	06/12/1981 ROSADO, LUIS 	MALE 	02/02/1939 ROSADO, LUIS 	MALE 	06/24/1986 ROSADO, LUIS 	MALE 	12/15/1946

Anyone know better? Thanks

wiki-ny-2007 (talk) 05:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Google News finds this from February 2009: Prisoner from Bronx guilty of killing another inmate. It doesn't say where Rosado was headed next, though.  It's amusing that some sources still call him Davis's "assassin", as though it took some mysterious police faction 21 years of plotting to get to him.  Best, CliffC (talk) 18:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

NYS Inmate Locator has a ROSADO, LUIS MALE born 02/18/1966 in Southport Correctional Facility in Pine City, NY. I'm not sure if this is him but, he does have a 2nd degree murder charge, Southport is a supermax (as is Shawangunk) and his sentence is 25 to life. There may not have been a mysterious police faction working against Davis but, word from other inmates was that Rosado had family that was taken care of due to his actions that night. Of course, this is not verifiable but, Davis had no enemies in jail. Officers did know what he did and hard liner LEOs let him know what they thought of him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.52.75 (talk) 05:49, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Notable
Can someone tell me how this guy is notable? I dont know how to nominate an article for deletion, can someone do that?Racingstripes (talk) 04:37, 14 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Assuming you are not trolling, the best way to find out why Davis is notable is to find out for yourself by reading the article and its sources. You would also have to figure out how to propose the article for deletion on your own, since most people here don't have time to waste.  --CliffC (talk) 16:38, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Huffington Post
The Huffington Post mocks Wikipedia for having an article on himBamler2 (talk) 21:56, 11 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Huh? Not that it matters, but why do you think the simple statement "He even has a Wikipedia page" mocks Wikipedia? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/len-levitt/christopher-dorner-copkil_b_2661925.html --CliffC (talk) 01:17, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, in the context that WP has lots of porn stars, sex positions, and video game articles but lacks good writing and some important articles.Bamler2 (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

"Search and capture"
This section could use some expanding. "Davis released the two visitors and sent the hostage's husband out to pick up food," What visitors? What hostage? That information isn't anywhere in the article. 68.156.95.34 (talk) 09:09, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:21, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Larry Davis In 1986.jpg