Talk:Lassie (1954 TV series)/Archive 1

Jeff's Collie
I am pretty sure the show was called Jeff's Collie in its original run for the entire time that Rettig played Jeff. I am pretty sure the name was not changed to Lassie until the Jeff character left the show. Can anyone confirm this?--MMan710 02:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Color format?
When did the series change from Black and white to color? Dogru144 09:37, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:O Parents.JPG
Image:O Parents.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Excessive number of Fair Use images?
I believe this article may have an excessive number of Fair Use images, thus not complying with NFCC 3(a). Aside from the show's title card, at most there should be only one Fair Use image of the cast from each era of the show i.e., the Rettig years, Provost years, Robt. Bray, etc.  JGHowes talk  -  22:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This image was tagged [[Image:Copyright-problem.svg|40px]] non-free by DO11.10talk on January 92008, so I'm deleting all but 3 non-free images plus the title card, i.e., one for each of the three different casts/plots during the series' 20-year run.  JGHowes talk  -  00:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Key Episodes
I've tagged this section for NPOV as no source is given stating that these are "key" episodes and they seem to have just been selected based on personal opinion. AnmaFinotera (talk) 10:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Vote for deletion. ItsLassieTime (talk) 15:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Overall cleanup
This article is in need of MASSIVE clean up to bring it in line with the TV MOS and to remove a lot of unsourced or badly sourced stuff, fancruft, trivia, etc. The character list is badly done, production information is all over the place and makes for a jumbled read, there is no episode list, etc. etc. The reference section is a mess due to the mix of real refs and just a list of stuff that is supposedly used as a reference but lacking in footnotes to show where it is. AnmaFinotera (talk) 10:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Trying to bring some order to cast list. Any suggestions? Should list be alphabetized by performer's last name, character's last name, by dates of first appearance? Thanks! ItsLassieTime (talk) 15:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...probably by order of appearance would be best, with years noted since the cast changed a few times. The MOS can also help with the basic format for the character section. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 16:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Cast should probably be in table format, as cast listings usually are.  Equazcion •✗/C • 18:51, 11 Feb 2008 (UTC)


 * That would not be in keeping with the Television MOS. Tables are a last resort when a cast list is just actor and role. AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Animal cast section
I'm wondering about reducing this list. Any thoughts? List is too long and practically competes with rest of cast lists in length. It might be wisest to list just recurring animals like Domino the horse, Pokey, the basset hound, and Sam, the hound dog. Thoughts?ItsLassieTime (talk) 19:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, I think we should get rid of all of them except those regularly ones like those you mentioned. The one episode and generic ones definitely don't need to be mentioned.AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * OK! I'll take care of it. And look forward to your review! ItsLassieTime (talk) 19:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

BW and color
Lassie went from filming in black and white to color but I can't find the date. Anyone know? I think the information should be included in the article. Lead, perhaps? Production notes? I'll continue to look for the date but if someone has the answer, please jump in!ItsLassieTime (talk) 19:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Good question. I know it was in the ranger years, but I can't remember if it was at the start or somewhere afterwards. AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the infobox, it was 1964. Of course, that's unsourced but CBS was going from b-w to color around that time  JGHowes talk  -  20:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like the start of season 11 is probably it then (which is also the start of the ranger years), but definitely need a source one way or the other. AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the first ranger year with Corey Stuart (or part of it) was b/w. That would have been the Fall 64 -- Spring 65 season. A few episodes from the year are currently shown on one of the "On Demand" channels and the episodes are in B/W. Perhaps it was the following Fall 65 -- Spring 66 season the show went color. ItsLassieTime (talk) 20:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll do some reason tonight, see if I can find something definitive. So far, I only found one fansite which says it was the first Ranger episode, but I seem to remember some of those being in black and white as well. AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * One site says season 12, Fall 1965-Spring 1966 was the first color season. http://episodes.lassieweb.org/lassie12.htm ItsLassieTime (talk) 21:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep...so we need to find a good source for it (as both mine and that one are fan sites and not reliable sources. I wonder if its mentioned in the Collins book at all. AnmaFinotera (talk) 22:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Character List
It seems like there are least a few sources available discussing the selection of the main cast members of the series, which means we should be able to have a full prose cast section as described in the TV MOS. As such, should we consider redoing that section to reflect that, and, if we feel its needed, move the existing character list off to a standalone List of Lassie characters? AnmaFinotera (talk) 09:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In agreement. Use sources to create a Main Cast and set it in prose. I vote for a standalone "list". Some main characters, I believe, can and should be mentioned briefly in the plot section to give readers some direction. You have good ideas! 209.244.189.88 (talk) 13:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Cool...I can give that a whirl soon if no one beats me too it. Timmy, Paul, and Ruth have their own articles already (for whatever odd reason), so that can be a starting point to giving their characters full info even if a full merge can't be done right now.  AnmaFinotera (talk) 14:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * OK! What did you have in mind? I liked the prose version I was doing (it retained all the information except Chandler who was moved to recurring characters. Let me know! ItsLassieTime (talk) 15:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, my thinking was more along the lines of what film MOS has, but then I realized, our TV MOS doesn't do the same thing and the existing list already meets that. With the film MOS, the cast/character is primarily for noting X was select for this role because of Y & Z, that kind of thing.  But for the TV articles, it looks like that should go under the production details instead.  I got my MOS' confused :(  Sorry :( AnmaFinotera (talk) 15:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I like your funny little :( faces! Come on, cheer up! I like the idea of a prose section rather than bullets. Too many bullets. And definitely a standalone list if possible. Very brief mentions of stars and characters in plot and production. ItsLassieTime (talk) 15:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I took a look at some of the featured TV articles, and, here and there (especially with large casts), the cast/character sections were rendered in both bullets and prose, or bullets, or prose. No one consistent style in featured articles. Flexibility. Something to consider. What works best for this article? That's the question. 15:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ItsLassieTime (talk • contribs)


 * Yep...with such a large cast, we may need to do some experimenting to find a style that works best here.AnmaFinotera (talk) 16:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Good job, AnmaFinotera!
Production notes are great -- thorough, readable, and to the point! What about putting the cast list into prose? It's late and I'm wide awake. I'll give it a go. Revert, if you prefer or think otherwise! ItsLassieTime (talk) 09:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...thanks for giving the cast to prose a whirl, but it didn't quite work like I was thinking it would and ended up being a repeat of the plot and production sections, so for now I've changed it back to a list. ~goes to think some more~. AnmaFinotera (talk) 15:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's difficult to avoid rehashing material from other sections of the article. I'm wondering about expanding the lead and look forward to seeing your work with it! ItsLassieTime (talk) 15:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed...the lead will need expansion, but we should probably put it off until the rest of the clean up is done (since the lead should summarize the article). That way we won't have to keep editing it as we find more stuff to add/modify. Out of curiosity, do you have access to any of the other Lassie non-fiction books or documentary type stuff?  If not, I'm going by the A&M Library today so I can look to see if they have any. AnmaFinotera (talk) 15:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * PLEASE! Locate as many materals as you can! I have the Collins book and Provost's memoirs. Also a TV Guide from the Robert Bray years. Incredibly, for one of the longest running and most popular shows of its day, there is not a lot of published non-fiction material about the show. Boo ... hiss! ItsLassieTime (talk) 15:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks like all A&M has is Rudd Weatherwax's training book, but since it was written in 1971, I'll take a look to see if he talks about the show in it at all. AnmaFinotera (talk) 15:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I couldn't find the book on the shelf, so I'm gonna file a find/recall request for it (mmm...being university staff does have nice library perks LOL). AnmaFinotera (talk) 00:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Episode List
I have the basic episode list mostly done. I just need to fix the colors, directors, and writers for each one. My basic plan is to have a List of Episode page with the basic lists, then individual season pages for the 19 seasons. At first I was going to do by "arcs" but for the Timmy years, it was already too big without any summaries. How does this sound for everyone (and anyone ready to help add in summaries after the pages are in place :-P )? AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow! You deserve our thanks for the accomplishment! I'll be glad to help with summaries! Can't wait! ItsLassieTime (talk) 20:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyone have any suggestions for other possible places to find the director/writer information for the series? TV.com seems to have all of the directors, but there are quite a few gaps in writers. As an update, I finally found 19 different colors for the season tables (so fun!), and I have the writer/director info that I was able to find from TV come entered for the first three seasons. The episode list template is being changed, so if anyone is looking at the work in progress, it might look odd at the moment since I've gone ahead and start using the new code (as it has specific fields for director and writer *grin*). I'm also using a show specific template for the page, similar to what is being done with List of Lost episodes. When moved into the main space, this will allow us to only maintain one set of episodes (or at least, one per season page), with those list transcluded into the main list of episodes without the summaries. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Another update: The template change is done, so the episode list is almost ready to go into the main space so others can help fill in summaries and stuff. I'm just waiting until I can learn how to hide the shortsummary field if there is no summary, due to having to make a special template for things. AnmaFinotera (talk) 08:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The episode list is done and I'm getting it into the main space now. Will probably take me another hour or so to finish getting the pages created. I've put inuse on all while I get them in place and fix any minor issues. Only the first four seasons have the writers and directors set right now. I plan to keep working on both those and adding summaries, but of course anyone else wanting to help, just leave a note here or on the appropriate season page once the inuse's are down to note you're gonna work on that chunk. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Color seasons 1965?
I found one reference to the color seasons beginning in 1965 in a TV Guide article about Robert Bray dated August 13-20 1965. The article doesn't mention an exact date when color episodes would be regularly filmed and aired but does say future episodes would be filmed in color. I think it's implied that the color episodes would begin with the Fall season '65. Can we use it? I'd rather be exact but no other info at present except LassieWeb. ItsLassieTime (talk) 16:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...I think that might get too close to original research, since we can't say for sure that episodes for the fall season hadn't already been filmed in black and white, and Bray wasn't referring to episodes after those. AnmaFinotera (talk) 16:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Response
I'm loving that this article is really growing in sourced material. One caution I think we need to observe, though, especially with the response, is to be sure anything noted is directly tied to the show, and not honors specifically for the dog Lassie. Several items seem like they might be borderline and possibly need to be moved to the main Lassie article. AnmaFinotera (talk) 17:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, in part. Lassie's role as environmental activist was directly tied to the show and should be noted in this article. Appearances on other tv shows? Well, Lassie would never have made guest appearances during the show's run except for being the show's star. The Jack Benny and Ed Sullivan appearances were made with Jon Provost, making it more or less a "show" recognition. Provost would never have made guest appearances on either show except for being the star of Lassie. We've noted elsewhere in the article that Lassie received a spot on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. This honor was probably based on the character's entire career rather than just the tv series and perhaps should be moved to the Lassie article rather than retained here. I think we should return the tv guest appearances, they were made during the show's run and prompted by the show's popularity. Numerous guest appearances attest to the show's popularity rather than promotion, as Lassie really needed no publicity. BTW, I'm wondering how the episode list is coming along? I love to see the directors, writers, etc. I'm thinking it would be great to get the list in here ASAP for any Wikiusers interested! :) ItsLassieTime (talk) 18:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That's the tricky part. Lassie was a star already, so can we say for sure that she wouldn't have had the appearances without being on the show?  Probably not, but for the ones like the JB and ES ones, it should be noted that she was with Jon Provost so its clearer that it was a show promotion.  Of course, the other question is, does that indicate response or is it trivia information?  Its relatively common for actors to go on talk shows to promote their series, so was there something special about these appearances that made them unusual enough for extra noting?


 * For the episode list, I have all the eps in with air dates, broken into the "arcs" and seasons. Now, for the slow process of setting the director and writer (I have the fields in, but with default values so much correct).  I suspect that will take a little longer. :) Once that is done, I'll move it into the main article space and then do the break outs for each season page where the summaries will go. AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Nothing special about the guest appearances. Delete. :) Looking forward to the Episode List! ItsLassieTime (talk) 18:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Cloris Leachman
What exactly is POV about the section? The section is not a personal analysis but material cited closely from two sources. People are fired from television shows all the time. What's POV about that? Perhaps something can be rephrased. The subsection is referenced in two independent sources and a generally accepted part of the Lassie television story. It's omission would be a disservice to the truth. It is my understanding that our job as editors is not to "blank" a page but to improve it. Please bring your ideas here to the discussion page before deleting edits to the article or blanking pages. This is a shared endeavor and not the bailiwick of one. 209.244.189.88 (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I asked you not to readd it, but to discuss your addition first. The page has not been blanked, only the NPOV addition has (again) been removed as being inappropriate. The section is full of non-neutral language and show an obvious biased against Cloris Leachman.  Neither of the sources are that independant, and there is no need to spend 2000+ characters to discuss their being fired nor does it need to be an entire section. Half of what you included is already discussed in the article. We aren't here to provide minute detail about every last aspect of the series, nor are we here to reprint Collins entire book. This isn't a gossip column, but an encyclopedic article. And yes, it is a shared endeavor and I'm not the only editor who works on this article, just the only one awake at the moment (it seems). As I said in my note on your talk page, lets discuss it here FIRST to see what the salvageable parts of your addition there are and how to incorporate it into the article.AnmaFinotera (talk) 08:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The content is now in the article, put in the proper section and significantly shortened to tell just the facts and not include a lot of unnecessary opinion and commentary. AnmaFinotera (talk) 08:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Martin family image
Do you have the Wikipedia rule regarding the use of images under evaluation by administrators? I'd like to check it out for further downloads. TeaTackle (talk) 09:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no hard and fast rule, however it simply makes sense. If the image is deleted, the article will be left with an ugly hole and red link, and someone will have to go back and find the original image and put it back.  There is no reason not to wait until the fate of the image is decided before putting it in the article. AnmaFinotera (talk) 09:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe there's a 48 hour evaluation period. If the image is not deleted by administrators in the time period, will that mean the image can be used in the article? The image I think needs to be linked to an article or it will be considered "orphaned" and deleted. Rather than "replacing" the article's existing black and white image, I'll place the color image elsewhere in the article and await the evaluation -- just to be on the safe side. I'm concerned the color image will be deleted as an "orphan". TeaTackle (talk) 09:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Orphan requires it to be orphaned for 7 days after being tagged, so no need to worry about it being deleted. If an administrator marks the image as being okay, then yes, it would be okay for use. I do wonder, though, if it is an improvement as the series was filmed in black and white, so a black and white image would be more accurate.  However, if others support a color image, I'm fine with its replacement once an administrator okays it for fair use. AnmaFinotera (talk) 09:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll await evaulation before uploading. Image for discussion of this article's editors... Image:MartinFamilyLassie.jpg TeaTackle (talk) 09:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

New Sections
I've set up sections in compliance with Wikipedia's Guide to Writing about Television Shows. Let's leave it this way for a while until other areas and sections are brought into line. Reversed Characters and Plot sections per Wiki's Guide to etc.

Also I think the fictional elements about the show should be separated from the production notes/details because they're essentially a rehash of material found in the plot section. Keep the "true life" elements in the production details section and delete or move the fictional elements to plot whenever possible. ItsLassieTime (talk) 21:18, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I had to undo your edits as the guide was updated not to long ago (literally, a few hours ago, to reflect the current consensus from FA television articles, et al). I did, however, immediately go back and reorder it per the new guidelines, which I'm guessing was your goal.  :) I'm going through now to put back any other changes you made. Please add some additional context for the quote, though, as right now my first question was "who is he and why do I care what he said?" :P  I'm not sure I understand your last comment? Can you give an example? AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you have the link to the updates? Thanks! I really need to read through it before I go stumbling about! The article looks good! You've done a great job! I think you should now expand the intro because you a very good writer and ... "wrap the whole thing up"! I'll look for real life and fictional examples in the Production notes. Your episode lists and guides are just great! Must have been labor intensive! Good job! I'll see what I can find on Jenkins. the quote seems to me a reasonably cogent analysis/comment without infringing on the Wiki reader's rights. ItsLassieTime (talk) 21:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No prob, and sorry if I seemed I was stepping on your toes. It was easier to go back and redo, than redo again :) I put a link the guidelines in my talk, but probably good to link here too so here ya go WikiProject Television/How to write about television programs. There is still some discussion on whether reception should go above media (right now the guide has below). For now, I've left it above as it makes the most logical sense to me. :P  If anyone would like to weigh in, the discussion is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television. I agree on the need to redo the lead.  I've been putting it off while we flesh out the article more, but probably a good time to at least give it another go.  Hopefully we can really expand the reception section some more, since I think (if it can be sourced), the long running appeal and popularity of the series should be covered.  AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Cast Section
The cast section of the article is looking horrible long and confusion. I think we need to consider the example of Degrassi: The Next Generation, and switch to a prose format which handles the large list better and will let us tighten up the section so it is not so daunting and overwhelming. We can have then just have two prose sections under Cast, one for the main cast and one for the recurring/special folks. This also avoids it being so redundant with both production and plot, which already establishes who did what in the series.AnmaFinotera (talk) 07:28, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Rettig in 1955.png
The image Image:Rettig in 1955.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


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 *  JGHowes  talk  16:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment on articles for individual television episodes and characters
A request for comments has been started that could affect the inclusion or exclusion of episode and character, as well as other fiction articles. Please visit the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(fiction). Ikip (talk) 11:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)