Talk:Latin Union/Archive 1

Pan-Latinism?
The Latin Union is not a recent concept of unity among "Latin" cultural nations. The organization was based on the historic 19th century Pan-Latin movements in Europe, and a similar push for a more united Latin America in the 20th century. Supporters of Pan-Latinism as they are called dreamed of a singular empire of Latin countries, the list includes WWII Italian dictator Benito Mussolini and Argentinan leader Juan Peron in the 1950's has nationalistic overtones. I doubt the Latin Union, alike other regional and inter-cultural organizations like the Nordic Union would exist any longer with stronger cooperative organizations of the European Union and the Organization of American States in the Western Hemisphere. +Mike D 26 10:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Latin Union Website
Website was recently updated. The Philippines still remains a member. The Philippine Flag is included in the site's home page flash banner.

However, the year of entry of the Philippines in the organization was in 1985. By that time, Spanish was no longer an official language for 12 years. And on the year after that, Spanish was removed from the college curriculum. Strange, huh?

El Salvador is now a member.--Fifteencounts 01:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The Philippines has arround 13 million manuscripts in historical documents which I can cite. There are still many land and legal documents in Spanish. The first constitution as well as propaganda material document, Noli Me Tangere and other documents, novels and material were written in Spanish. This satisfies the condition "Existence of significant literature in a Latin-derived language".--Jondel 16:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

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Contradiction
The template at the top says that Catalan is an official language, but the Official languages section at the bottom says that it is not. Can someone please fix it? --Amir E. Aharoni 08:45, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Catalan is the first language listed in the logo (Unió Llatina). I'll clean up to ensure that it is clear that Catalan IS an official langauge. samwaltz 19:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Mapis not showing
The map is not showing, but it's available at. Can't seem to solve the problem. Help anyone? The Ogre 15:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

All parts of the world?
The Latin Union is concentrated in Europe, Southern and Western Africa, and South and Central America. Why say it covers "all parts of the world", which could possible even imply membership of every single country to some people, when large parts of the earth's surface don't contain any members? Is "much of the world" not a far more accurate summary? --Lo2u (T • C) 16:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

unwarranted reversions, false info
According to the Latin Union's site, specifically the Member States section: Philippines (en Espanol) The Philippines not only is a member State of the Latin Union, but English, Spanish and Tagalog are official languages. I am reverting the page, per consensus, as the anonymous contributor who is insisting it's not a part of the Latin Union is not bothering to discuss. This will be referred to a Higher Power if unwarranted, non consensual changes continue.Pedant 04:27, 2004 Nov 6 (UTC)


 * I think the problem isn't that the Philippines isn't actually a member of the Latin Union -- it is -- but that it has become a member without meeting the criteria: Tagalog is not a Latin language, and Spanish is not an official language, and most Filipinos don't even know any Spanish. Mauritius could be a member (most people speak French creole), and Argentina, but the Philippines shouldn't qualify. There are far more Spanish speakers in the United States. What this means is that the criteria are actually very loose. BGManofID (talk) 19:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Languages are (no longer) organized by letters of the alphabet, (but by importance in terms of total speaking population, according to Ethnologue)

 * As this in English it should be organized in English, it is maybe offensive the organization in this article, as in most language Spanish starts with an "E" it is the second language after Catalan, but in this article is the first even if it starts with an "S". It caan be seen a somewhat stupid, but it is better to organize countries by the alphabet as the website does, not to offend anyone!--12:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * (It´s a much more rational and logical criteria, in my humble opinion, to put them by order of speaking population; you can check, for example, the order in which members of the Commonwealth are displayed in the Commonwealth´s article, or the order in which the different "languages of europe" and their predecessors are mentioned in its own one. If alphabetic order were the criteria in most of similar English wikipedia´s articles, you could be right, although it would keep seeming arbitrary, and poorly intuitive; but that´s not even the fact.  I also expect not to offend anyone.)


 * If we’re going to order the languages by total number of speakers (not by native), I believe French has Portuguese beat. Portuguese is listed before French in the article, though. Should this be changed? I’m assuming that “total speaking population” means “total speakers”. --Montgolfière (talk) 20:58, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Puerto Rico
Why is Puerto Rico is not in the Latin Union?--Jasonfitz (talk) 13:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know, Jason. But in case you're actually asking 'why is Puerto Rico not in Wikipedia's "Latin Union" article?', the answer is: Because the Latin Union doesn't list Puerto Rico as a member (see list of members). SamEV (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Maybe Puerto Rico is part of US territories, and US is no a Latin Union member. -- dumbbell123 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dumbbell123 (talk • contribs) 04:11, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Maps on this article: Brazil is a permanent member of the Latin Union
The two map images on this article currently do not have Brazil marked/shaded as a Latin Union member. They are wrong and need to be updated.

Please see the link below to the Latin Union website for all its current members. Brazil is amongst them. http://www.unilat.org/SG/Organisation/Presentation/EtatsMembres/index.es.asp --Cavallero (talk) 22:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, someone do upload updated and accurate maps please. 99.27.136.163 (talk) 00:15, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Mexico
what on earth is latin about Mexico??? and then you didn't even list Puerto Rico.-Lupe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.114.15 (talk) 17:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The language they speak? And PR won't make it since it's not a sovereign nation yet. -- Howard  the   Duck  11:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you serious Lupe? What is latin about Mexico? Where you born there? Have you lived there? Have you traveled there? The language is Latin. The culture is heavily latin. The Religion is Catholic. Roman law and Napoleonic laws used to prevail. Architecture,arts,literature is all influenced by the Latin world. That is not to say that native elements and population do not exist, these exist in every other latin country as well. But in no way would they erase what IS there!

Robert,pumasgoya —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pumasgoya (talk • contribs) 16:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The language that is spoken in Mexico is Spanish, a latin language. A big part of the culture of Mexico is coming from Spain, a latin country (even if there are also a big amerindian influence).  So Mexico is a latin country.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.59.166 (talk) 15:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Remember that before countries like France came under Roman rule they too had a culture native to their people which became mixed with that of the Latin culture which is what produced modern French culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.36.199 (talk) 15:57, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

The maps are wrong. Mexico is not a permanent member of the Latin Union (see http://www.unilat.org/SG/Etats_membres/es).

The Philippines as part of the Latin Union
The Philippines became a member of the Latin Union in 1985. At that time Spanish was the third official language of the country before they revised the constitution and completely removed it in 1987. Up until that, the Spanish language was the sole official language of the Philippines from 1565 to 1898, and was co-official from 1899 to 1987 under different governments with the exception of the Japanese occupation.

I believe the Philippines still has the right to maintain its membership, it is the only Asian country with its own Spanish academy (Academia Filipina de la Lengua Española) and it is a member of the Hispanidad. The Spanish language thrived in the Philippines during the 1910's when 20% of the population were able to speak Spanish fluently. The number drastically declined due to the American colonial government which abolished and discouraged the use of the Spanish language.

There is currently an on-going movement to re-instate the Spanish language as one of the official languages. There are also plans to make the Spanish language a compulsory course in all schools, they are currently doing preliminary tests for it in some of the schools in the country. A part of the funding is from Spain. There are teachers being trained for the Spanish language currently. This was reported in the news a few years ago, I haven't heard much news about this recently but it seems to be in progress and the current government administration is not stopping it. The business sector is asking the government to re-instate it because of the rising need for Spanish call centres.

Historically and culturally, the Spanish language plays a very significant and important role. The two most historically significant novels in Philippine history and culture, El Filibuterismo and Noli Mi Tangere, are both written in Spanish (they were published in Berlin). The vast majority of the documents in the historical archives are written in Spanish. There is a need for Spanish-speaking Filipino historians in the country. The majority of the population rely on American translations of the Spanish documents to read the historical documents. Many of the history textbooks are American translations of the Spanish documents. The largest spoken Spanish creole language in the world, Chavacano, is from the Philippines with over 600,000+ speakers.

For all of these reasons, perhaps that is why the Philippines still maintains its membership.

(Lazyazian (talk) 20:54, 5 June 2012 (UTC))

Other territories/countries in Asia? would Macau or Vietnam qualify?
Just curious as to what people think.

Since Portuguese is an official language in Macau, would they qualify if they asked to join the Latin Union? Would Vietnam qualify since they have years of colonization by the French, and their language was influenced by both the Portuguese and France?

Are there any other Asian nations or territories that could be a potential member from Asia?(PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 10:50, 20 November 2009 (UTC))


 * I would say Macau is the only other potential member, but its very unlikely. When I see pictures and read about Macau, it is overwhelmingly Chinese in language and culture, very few traces of the Portuguese. The same applies for Vietnam, it was a French colony but French culture never got a foothold in the country.

(Lazyazian (talk) 21:14, 5 June 2012 (UTC))

Macau would most surely qualify as an observer. It is their lack of sovereignty that would be an obstacle to full membership. Culturally Macau is indeed mostly chinese but there is not only a portuguese ex-patriate community but a small but influential luso-chinese minority who speaks cantonese, the Macao creole and/or Portuguese. The cultural links are still strong(from archives to co-operation) and as far as I can observe, they are kept by the local government to mark Macaos specificity inside the chinese nation...as described by a friend from Macao, very proudly chinese but not wanting to loose a special culture that attracts business, tourists and justifies the rather more liberal and democratic legislation.

Of Vietnam, until the end of the war, we could say that it could have been a memeber with not much issue. A large number of the elites was francophone and even francophile, with a large catholic population, the cultural links were very strong. After the war I believe the situation changed. The catholic population and the francophone elite having been forced to migrate, but that is something only the Vietnamese can truly comment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.198.239.186 (talk) 12:36, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Latin Union enlargement
I don't understand why Switzerland (where three of its four languages - French,Italian and Ladino - are official languages)is not a member of the Latin Union. Furthermore, New Mexico (USA) and Quebec (Canada) should be members because they officially use Spanish and French/Italian, even if they are not independent States. Brunodam (10/28/06)

As I know, Switzerland is almost totally isolating itself from joining any international organisation. Switzerland is one of the newest United Nations member, and the joining was reluctant. So no doubt Switzerland is not joining L.U. because of its neutralization policy. --Dumbbell123 (talk) 04:16, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

The fact that Canadian Provinces or USA states are not members of the Latin Union (or any other international organization) probably has to do with their legal status. Federal States often are constitutionally forbiden from entering international agreements and organizations. Canada, as a State with two offical languages most surely is the best candidate if there was political will to please the Quebequois section of the population that wants to be closer to other romance-speaking States, but I suppose there is no such political will not to encourage separatism.

In international relations, territories and states without full sovereignty can sometimes be given obeserver status as the inhability to sign international agreements prevents them from becoming full members. The most important element here is the legal status of the territory and if the constitutional framework that they are bound to allows them to participate in international treaties and/or agreements.

Other than the states and province mentioned I would then add that both Melaka in Malaysia and the Indian Union states and territories of Goa, Daman and Diu, Dadra and Nagar Aveli, and Pondicherry could potentially be observers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.198.239.186 (talk) 12:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

LATIN
how can a mexican be latin if he is an amer-indian?I also think that romanian language should be the only official language in the so called "latin union",because is the closest language to what roman soldiers spoke 2000 years ago.Can somebody say that isn't true? (january 30,2007)
 * It isn't true. --Pedro 17:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It isn't true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.163.65.67 (talk) 05:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It IS true that the Romanian Language is the closest language to what roman soldiers spoke 2000 years ago. I speak Latin, Romanian, French, Italian, Castillian and I can confirm that ! Another confirmation: in my hometown, in Central Romania, the local people can read and understand with ease the Latin inscriptions from the funeral monuments of the Roman legionaires and dignitaries, spread all over the area. There is not an insurmontable language barrier between Latin and Romanian, because the Romanian Language has the highest proportion of Latin words among the Romance languages.

About the Mexicans... I think that they are Latin too. If they feel that they belong to the Latin World, they speak a Romanic language and they share a Latin heritage, they are definitely LATIN.


 * Mexicans aren't solely Amerindians they are also of Spanish and mixed Spanish and Native ancestry as well as from other cultures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.36.199 (talk) 15:51, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

The Romanian Language is not so spread into the world so it should NOT be the only official language in the Latin Union. Anyway it should be equal with French, Italian, Castillian and Portugese, because France and Romania are THE MAIN FINANCIAL SPONSORS of the Latin Union. User:Transsylvanian

I believe your comment to be no more than provocative and ill informed. 1. Romanian has suffered considerable influence from slavic languages, specially at grammar level. In any case, even if you do not agree, perhaps we could create a linguists comission to decide which one of our beautiful languages is the closest to latin and if Sardinian wins (and most of my linguist friends think it is) we should all learn Sardinian. No? I dont think so either. The division of latin into neo-romance languages is a fact we can not revert, we all have proud and valueble cultures and history and the objective of a Latin Union should most definetly not be the destruction of diversity.

Regarding Mexico, or any other latin-american country your comment borders the offensive. If we are going to reduce being latin to a ethnic concept then we will start excluding every single one of our nations. In the end maybe even the italians will have to drop considerable parts of their country to just leave the italians living in the the province of Lazio as the one and true latins in the world. Even if you do want to reduce it then you would have to count the white mexicans and the mestizo mexicans into the latin family a dominant and numerical majority in Mexico. As far as it is known, roman settlers in Dacia married and intermingled with Dacians and later on their descendents did the same with slavic groups. Just because the offspring is white it does not make them more or less worthy to call themselves latin than the hispano-american offspring. To be latin is, and this was true during the existence of the Roman Empire, a cultural concept and a sense of belonging. If your culture or parts of it are latin and you feel latin then you are latin. The pure descendents of german or japanese immigrants to Brazil that speak portuguese and have an essentially brazilian way of life (even with elements of their original cultures)are equally entitled to call themselves latin. Mexicans still have strong indigenous cultures in their midst but the mainstream Mexican culture is latin in Language, religion, cultural expression, etc. This not despising or underplaying the richness that the indigenous cultures of Mexico have brought into the local latin culture. Diversity and inclussiveness is one of our strengths...and this was also true when there was an Emperor in Rome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.198.239.186 (talk) 13:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Latin cultures
Hello everyone! You may want to go to Latin cultures an participate in the article and discussion. There are a lot of disputed statements... The Ogre 12:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

there are other opinions and positions; If Mexicans belong to anotther Cultural Sphere,wich has Latino but also African and Amerindian influences, how can they be Latinos? Similar situation can be said about the Philipines, Peru, Bolivia, Brasil... The real Latinos Live in Europe, But the name Latino does not refer to them. and the term Hispanic, supossedly refering to the peoples of iberia peninsula since roman times, does not apply to them..europe has strong relations with Latin America But it's another different cultural sphere - the west (western europe,more precisely) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.154.103.74 (talk) 03:56, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Tottally disagree. The North American definition of Hispanic and Latino are not very useful and are definitions that are external to the latin world and should be refused as useless. Latinos (according to the US census definition) is a cultural definition. It applies to anyone coming from a south american or caribbean country that were parts of either the portuguese or spanish empires. I think it is useless because it will classify a spanish immigrat to the USA as White but if his twin brother migrates to Mexico with his spanish wife, has a child and this child migrates to the USA with a mexican passport then the child becomes latino. The racial definition is also useless to define who is a latin (different from latino which is a USA concept). Are spaniards and portuguese true latins? The genetic studies say we are closer to other western european nations (french but also british) than we are to a considerable part of italians and most definitely Romanians. This has to do with the migration patterns after the end of the last glaciation and further population migrations, namely after the fall of the Roman Empire. the same can be equally said to large parts of the italian population even. Those who were celtic before the roman annexation and those who have been geneticly influenced by the later invasions of the Italian peninsula. A Mexican or a brazilian, can be, and often are, geneticly closer to a spaniard or portuguese than to a mayan or guarani. Should they be excluded from being latin?

Romans were assimilators extraordinaire. In the end of the day they could not care less about the coulour or original culture where you came from as long as you 1. adopted at least parts of roman (latin) culture, and 2. Accepted that you were roman. Spanish and Portuguese in the new world and in Africa did essentially the same, even grading how assimilated you were to spanish or portuguese culture and giving you legal rights according to that level of assimilation.

As an iberian that has travelled in both Brazil and Mexico I have to say that I felt very much at home as culture is concerned. The language, the taste for soaps, religion, ways to see the world, raise kids etc were very similar to what I see at home, let alone athings like architecture and food which have distinctive elements but also huge points of contact with iberian art and culinary. The African elements in Brazil (I visited Salvador) and the indigenous elements in Mexico were noticeable but they were not so central as to make me believe they would disqualify them of being part of my iberian brotherhood....and as a consequence from the latin world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.198.239.186 (talk) 13:54, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Latin Union
has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Defunct?
Given that the secretariat has disbanded and all the employees have been laid off... is this still a viable entity? Would it be proper to address it in the past tense and have an investigation as to what brought about its demise? Iamvered (talk) 17:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Wishful thinking? Reading the website you dont have the same idea you get from wikipedia. --Pedro (talk) 13:46, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Pagkakaisang Latino
It is out of place and inappropriate to insert the Tagalog name (Pagkakaisang Latino) for the Latin Union in the box. Please remember that the basis of the Latin Union is a link to a Romance language or culture that derives some influence from the neo-Latin countries. Please remove it. But yes, the influence of the Spanish language on Philippine languages and dialects and Spanish culture on the Filipino cannot be ignored. The Philippines - thank heavens - is an outpost of Latin culture. rrcs_law 2:25 7 Apr 2009
 * I agree, so I reverted it, but requested a citation for the official languages. SamEV (talk) 03:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

why argentina is not a fully member? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.30.81.198 (talk) 19:46, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Why? You could always say "Unyon (or Union) ng mga Latino so it won't be out of place. And besides the term Pagkakaisang Latino has at least the word Latino borrowed from Spain. User:Anonymous 17:50, 14 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.54.175 (talk)

The Philippines
Questions regarding why the Philippines is part of the Latin Union should be forwarded to the organisation itself, but for now as stated on its official site, the Philippines is indeed part of the Latin Union (a good enough to leave it amongst the other countries in the list). Tagalog may not be purely Latin-based but the language is heavily influenced by Spanish so this might be the reason why the country is still part of the organisation. Another is the cultural aspect, which is too broad to be discussed in here. Why not Equatorial Guinea and East Timor? One can assume that since East Timor is a new country they have yet to apply for membership. I wouldn't have a clue regarding Equatorial Guinea's position (it's official languages are Spanish & French) but both countries are definitely worth the mention. -- Erehtsti 00:12, 6 November 2004
 * I have removed the last paragraph under Member States for having false information. The Philippines has not been expelled, nor has Equatorial Guinea joined the Latin Union, as cited in the Latin Union's website (Source) Erehtsti 22:23, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

i would debate that our language, is'nt as heavely influenced by Spanish than some of us portray. --Jandela 09:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

@ Jandela Well,Philippines languages are HEAVILY influenced by Spanish. Many basic words in Philippines languages are borrowed from Spanish, for example kusina, kutsara, kotse,kwelyo, kabayo, oras etc. Besides that, Filipinos rarely use their own language when counting, they prefer using Spanish number. You may argue that Tagalog speakers uses Tagalog number more often, but they just use that until ten. After ten, they still prefer using Spanish. When referring time, no doubt, Spanish is used. Eg. a las dos, a las tres etc.

Many Filipino invented words also derived from Spanish or have Spanish common characteristics, for example, Lolo and Lola. The suffixes of -o and -a to indicate gender are from Spanish. These are sufficient to indicate that Spanish plays an important roles in Philippines languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dumbbell123 (talk • contribs) 04:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

It is not only the language that matters here, but also the culture, traditions, and other aspects that may consider the Philippines a member of the organization. Even though Spanish wasn't now an official language, it has been used as an optional language, also some Filipinos tend to understand a bit of Spanish. User:Anonymous 17:57, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

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Removing Philippines
I am removing the Philippines. We have a Spanish derived language though, Chabacano language.--Jondel 11:11, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * The official site, lists the Philippines as a member. Erehtsti 01:43, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I would be happy if the Philippines was a member. One of our languages I believe is intelligible to Spanish, Chabacano. However, I really don't think we are a member. I believe the website needs to update the list. There are 2 lists in one, the Philippines is listed, in the other, it is not(all the other countries are listed). In BTW, there are still Spanish speakers, including myself, in the Philippines. I'll see if there is an e-mail contact on the website to clarify. --Jondel 02:20, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * That would be a good idea.. I also just noticed on the site that East Timor (amongst a few others) is listed in the news section, so maybe an official update from them would help. Erehtsti 02:34, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, I just sent the e-mail ( to dpel@unilat.org ), I 'll send anouther follow up on East Timor. --Jondel 02:54, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To anonymous 165.21.154.117
Kindly cite your source. Please don't make unilateral edits, especially if you choose to be anonymous. Pls use or do make a user account. Behaviour like this is hard to tolerate. I've sent an e-mail now to the Latin Union. If you don't cite sources, the statements you put become opinions and have to be reverted. --Jondel 04:12, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * This is the same person that prompted me to start this topic discussion, hoping I could get him/her to cite the source. That was late last year and yet we still get these random edits once in a while. I have also sent an e-mail and will share any information that does come by my way. Erehtsti 06:35, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1) Pls understand that there are frequent vandalizers,and people with vested interested but unsubstantiated info. Thus users are prioritized over anonymous accounts.  Wikipedians typically have deleted edits by anonymous accounts.

2) I did a search on the Spanish yahoo using these key words:

2004 UNIÓN LATINA Filipinas

These words appear: 2004, año del cincuentenario

Also the listing shows the Philippines. Link from spanish yahoo:

http://www.pliegosdeopinion.net/pdo8/pensamiento/iniciativas/unionlatina.htm

3) Lets wait for the reply from the union.(2 - 3 days?)--Jondel 07:28, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have recieved the reply(to be pasted below) confirming membership. In fairness however, the site says that Spanish is still an official languages which it is not. Still, if the site says the Philippines is a member then it is.--Jondel 00:03, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)