Talk:Latymer Upper School/GA2

GA Review
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Nominator: 12:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: UndercoverClassicist (talk · contribs) 08:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Back again for round two -- many comments already dealt with in the first edition. I am still very concerned by the sourcing: I have ended up doing source checks on most of the text, and have yet to do one that is fully satisfactory. Every one is pulling up either WP:TSI issues, where the cited material does not support what it purports to, WP:CLOP issues, where we have closely paraphrased the source material without attribution, or both. The problem here is that sourcing checks can only be a sample: no reviewer will be able to catch everything, so the sourcing checks need to give confidence that the entire article is above reproach. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Content

 * : this is not explicitly supported by the source. More than that, it's extremely misleading: there will be an income threshold (Latymer claim that it is flexible, and so do not publish it), and there is almost always a considerable gap between "low enough to qualify for a full bursary" and "high enough to afford the fees". By comparison, Manchester Grammar, which is known for its generosity with bursaries, offers full assistance only to families with a before-tax income below £32,000; full fees are £15,930, which would be a long way from affordable for most families on that budget. Even with the best will in the world, not all bursary applicants are given funding, as the Latymer page acknowledges.
 * This has been rewritten already.


 * : a few things here. The source doesn't say that Latymer founded a school -- he says that he left property to pay for them to attend existing petty schools. More importantly, he didn't actually died until 1627, and the property wasn't put to this purpose until 1628. This material also isn't in the body text, though it does appear in the infobox.
 * Edited.


 * : decap Societies, as the plural isn't part of the technical term. Suggest bracketing (philosophy) or similar to the JS Mill society, and whatever the Latymer Society does? Before doing so, though, see sourcing below.
 * Rewritten already.


 * Being very technical, the wall in the sports centre is a bouldering wall rather than a climbing wall (since it doesn't seem to have the means to attach ropes). Noting in passing that this section is supported by the cited source, but largely by the pictures rather than the text.
 * Tweaked the text.


 * Latymer Upper School is rated by the Tatler Schools Guide: I think we need to put a date on this: was rated in 2012.
 * Done.


 * : I'd advise reworking to avoid the awkward colon (perhaps "his Latin motto, Paulatim ergo certe. The bold is a nice touch but not great for accessibility, as screen-readers can't pick it up. I'd suggest spelling out that it contains the hidden word "latimer".
 * Already done.
 * I don't see that it is? UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think this is the only outstanding matter that is anything more than a "nice to have". UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * All done now.


 * Should John Crace get a mention on the alumni list, as we've quoted him for Hugh Grant?
 * Done.


 * : I'm not sure I understand what "independently of government" is doing here -- the Assisted Places Scheme died in 1997, so the government wouldn't have had any business providing bursaries to a fee-paying school. We don't say that Oxfam opened a food bank, or Tesco added a new range of cheese, "independently of government".
 * Removed the phrase.


 * The school's academic results place it among the top schools nationally, and it has historically accepted under 10% of applicants: the latter stat doesn't appear to be in the article, and is unsourced. Even then, we only claim that it relates to a single year, and I don't think we can really stretch that to what has "historically" happened (by that logic, the Labour Party has historically held 411 seats in the Commons).
 * Removed the phrase.


 * it survives on Queen Caroline Street, Hammersmith: from the Historic England page, it's clear that we're missing an important detail: it was rebuilt, probably (though not explicitly stated in the source) in 1994.
 * Edited. The rebuilding was in 1913.


 * There were 33 Oxbridge places in 2017...: can we get a more recent figure? A lot has happened in education (and Oxbridge admissions) since then.
 * Updated from fresh source.


 * Dr. Thomas Edwards, who had died c. 1618, was built for the Latymer boys in the churchyard in Fulham.: avoid abbreviations like circa in flowing text: better as "around".
 * Edited. Other reviewers have insisted on the circa template...


 * A preponderance of the sentences in "Latymer Upper School, King Street" begin with "The school [verbed]...". Can we do anything for prose about the repetition here?
 * Tweaked a bit.

More Content

 * : this still reads rather too much like an advertisement of press release. I would prefer, for WP:NPOV and WP:TONE, something closer to (names and dates for purposes of illustration) "in 2020, the school's headteacher, Cilla Black, declared her intention to increase this to one-in-four by 2024, and to make the school 'needs-blind', such that no applicant who passed the entrance exam would be prevented from joining the school through inability to pay fees". It doesn't quite mean, as of course you still have to pass the test.
 * Edited.


 * : Almost none of this is in the article (and therefore it is almost all unsourced), as far as I can tell. I'd also suggest cutting into two after "on site"; the "but" doesn't make much sense to me, and it's not totally clear whether the junior school (is it connected to Latymer or just on the same site?), the Upper School or the combined institution has 1,200 pupils. On a MOS:NUM note, we should be consistent as to whether the ages are given in figures or words.
 * Edited; added a brief bit on the junior school in the article body, with refs.


 * : can we do anything about the repetition?
 * Edited.


 * : can we do a bit of cross-referencing to find his name?
 * Frederick Temple.


 * : for the benefit of non-British readers (and under MOS:NOFORCELINK), I would clarify here that this meant that students generally paid fees.
 * Done.


 * : I don't actually see this in the cited source: it says that the Foundation uses the full arms, but not that the school ever used them.
 * Edited.


 * : we want only one of these summaries, I think. Replace the first with "results"?
 * Done.


 * The University of Pennsylvania is never referred to as "Pennsylvania" (it's either the University of Pennsylvania, Penn or UPenn); either of those options looks odd in this list, so I'd suggest just dropping it out. If you really want it, go with Penn.
 * Done.


 * I think "dissident politician" may be a bit whitewashy for someone primarily known as a fascist. Suggest "Labour and fascist politician"?
 * Let's call a spade a spade.


 * Decap job titles in most cases (MOS:PEOPLETITLES): "Ambassador" sticks out to me, there may be others. "High Commissioner" is borderline; I won't insist either way, but perhaps either "diplomat" or "British High Commissioner to Singapore"? He was only High Commissioner to one place, after all.
 * Done.


 * What's an actor-singer? I'd treat these as two different jobs: "actor, singer and comedian".
 * Done.


 * Rugby is linked rather late, next to Dan Luger: I think it's really an overlink anyway, but it's odd to link it so long after first mention.
 * Unlinked.

Image review

 * File:Latymer Upper School coat of arms 2020 –.png: I maintain my unease about the FUR, but am happy enough for GAN.
 * Noted.
 * File:Edward Latymer deed of conveyance 1627.png: checks out.
 * File:Butterwick House by Robert Schnebbelie 1839.png: checks out.
 * File:Bradmore House, Hammersmith, April 1904 by Philip Norman.jpg: checks out.
 * File:Schoolhouse in churchyard of St Paul's, Hammersmith.png: checks out
 * File:3 Latymer Schools map.svg: citations are given on the Wikipedia page, but not on Wikisource. In theory, the former can only vouch for the caption, not the image itself. Can the Wikisource page be updated with specifics of where the data is from?
 * Added.
 * Happy here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * File:Latymer Upper School 1895 Building.jpg: checks out.
 * File:Old Building Doorway, Latymer Upper School.jpg: checks out.
 * File:Latymer Upper School from King Street.jpg: checks out.
 * File:Latymer Performing Arts Centre, Hammersmith, London.jpg: checks out.
 * File:Joshua Rozenberg.jpg: checks out.
 * File:Hugh Grant '11.jpg: checks out.
 * File:Arlo Parks (headshot).jpg: checks out.
 * File:Raphael Wallfisch Portrait.jpeg: checks out.
 * File:Hestonregentspark.jpg: checks out.
 * File:James Cuthbert (Jim) Smith.jpg: checks out.

Source review

 * Edward Latymer, a wealthy lawyer and Puritan, who left part of his wealth for the clothing and education of "eight poore boyes" from Hammersmith -- this is almost verbatim from Edward Latymer, a prosperous lawyer, left part of his wealth for the clothing and education of “eight poore boyes” from Hammersmith on the Latymer website.
 * Reworded.
 * Happy here from a sourcing point of view, though I think the content losses (Latymer's profession and religion, and the clothing part of the bequest) are to the article's detriment. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If you push and push on the CLOP button you can't expect anything but this result.
 * I disagree; it's perfectly possible to take the evidence from a source without closely paraphrasing it. Without wishing to teach a much more experienced editor how to suck eggs, the WP:CLOP page has a great deal of good advice as to how a closely-paraphrased passage can be reworked to keep the information while ensuring that the expression is original. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The charity school was replaced in 1755 with a two-storey building, the ground floor for 25 girls, the first floor for 20 boys, later reduced on grounds of cost to 15 girls and 15 boys. The school was expanded in 1819 by adding two further classrooms, serving a total of 50 girls and 80 boys. Demand for the girls' school proved insufficient, and it was merged into the parish school; the boys' school increased to 100 pupils, filling the available space. In 1863, the boys' school moved to a new and larger building, with space for 125 pupils, between King Street East (now Hammersmith Road) and Great Church Lane, a little to the east of Hammersmith Broadway.. This is WP:CLOP from here: By 1755 the existing building had become dilapidated, and it was replaced by one of two storeys to accommodate 25 girls on the ground floor and 20 boys above. The cost, however, proved a serious drain on the income of the charity and the numbers were reduced to 15 boys and 15 girls. In 1819 two rooms were added and the numbers increased to 80 boys and 50 girls, who were educated on the 'National' system. Later the income of the girls' charity decreased and it was absorbed into the St. Paul's parochial school, but the Latymer boys' school flourished, having 100 boys but no room for extension. In 1863 a new building for 125 boys was erected in Great Church Lane (Hammersmith Road).
 * Edited down to bare facts. Note however that BHO is PD.
 * Similar to the above; I'm happy that this is no longer plagiarised (and copying wholesale from any source, without acknowledgement, is plagiarism: a citation declares only that the facts are supported), but a lot of factual material has been lost, and the article is weaker for it. There is a very large middle ground between closely paraphrasing a source and leaving most of its evidence unused. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * From the same source: The school was extended with five extra classrooms, a workshop, and laboratories in 1901, allowing the total number of pupils to rise to 450 is CLOP of in 1901 accommodation was increased to admit 450 by the addition of five classrooms, laboratories, and a workshop.
 * As above.
 * As above. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The Science and Library building, opened in 2010, includes labs for the three sciences and a library with seating for more than 200 pupils which occupies a floor at the base. Van Heyningen and Haward Architects were responsible for constructing these four buildings: very little of this is supported by the cited source, except for the last sentence and the existence of the library.
 * Edited down to bare fact.
 * I'm afraid that even this bare fact isn't actually in the cited source -- but there is surely some press release, local news story, etc. to give the opening date? The article only (indirectly) says that they finished building it in 2010. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Picky. Completed it is.


 * There are a couple of hits on Earwig for this source, which are close to the borderline for WP:CLOP: I don't think it's sufficient to raise a major stink on its own, but some adjustments might be advisable.
 * Tweaked.


 * I am a little dicey about The school offers all students a trip every year in 'Activities Week'. Trips range from outward bound camping, mountain walking, and sailing, to the cultural with visits to Barcelona, Paris, and Venice; local activities have included visiting London art galleries, producing a pantomime, and making a documentary film. being cited to a web page from 2008. That's a long time in education, and these sort of institutions are particularly often re-invented by enthusiastic senior managers. On a separate note, the tone here is on the wrong side of WP:PROMO. Other sourcing issues: the source says that not all events in Activities Week are trips, whereas our text at least implies that they are (we've effectively said that the school offers every pupil an orange at lunchtime because they have oranges next to the cake counter), and this section is closely paraphrased from Over 25 trips go out, ranging from camping and outward bound trips to Devon, the Brecon Beacons, County Mayo to walking in the Swiss Alps, sailing in the Mediterranean, cycling around Britain or surfing in Cornwall. For the less physically inclined there are cultural trips to Paris, Venice and Barcelona. There are also London based activities, ranging from visiting galleries and exhibitions, studying London landmarks to making a documentary in a week and producing and performing a pantomime.
 * Rewritten from new source.
 * The url seems to be missing from that citation? On another note, "energetic outdoor activities" reads as WP:PROMO to me, and we still have "range from" from the original source, which is quite a distinctive turn of phrase to take from a copyrighted source. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Added and tweaked. Really, "energetic" is just a neutral description, I'm not from the school, and "range from" is just one of not very many ways of saying there's a wide range of etc.


 * Something seems to have gone wrong with the formatting of note 37 (supporting The Latymer Performing Arts Centre, completed in 2009, contains drama studios, rehearsal rooms and a 150-seat recital hall.) The source says that the hall has 100 seats; we say it has 150.
 * Fixed both.
 * Some sourcing issues here: the article is in the future tense, so we can't use it for "was opened" (the project could have been delayed or cancelled). It also says that there's only one drama studio; we have multiple in the article. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Edited.


 * There are over 140 clubs and societies at Latymer, including the J. S. Mill, Literary and Latymer Societies: none of this is supported by the cited source.
 * Rewritten, new source.
 * All good now, though I'd advise archiving that URL: school websites are likely to change frequently. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * True, but updates will be better done by reading the source and updating both text and source at that time.
 * I don't follow: the most likely potential issue is that a web redesign means that the page gets renamed or deleted, which would break the link. The bot will archive it anyway, so it'll be trivial for a future editor who notices that problem to fix it, but not all of our readers are editors. With that said, WP:ENDURE is good sense but not a GA criterion. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 13:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean that the matter is the kind of thing that changes over the years, and the school will certainly update its pages; future editors will need to look at the website, find the activities page wherever it is, and update here accordingly, both text and citation.
 * All very true. If you want to signpost that, you could add a date to the statement: "in 2024, these included...". <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 16:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Done, but I think we're well down into the "nice to haves" now.


 * The school's own on-site prep pupils enter the Upper School automatically at the end of Year 6: not supported by the cited source.
 * Removed.


 * The playing fields are used for training by the England Rugby Team.: the source only demonstrates that they used them once, in 2020. Our text implies that this is a current and ongoing arrangement.
 * Edited.
 * Would advise putting a date on this ("were used by the England Rugby Team in 2020"), and might raise a question-mark as to notability if all we have is a few pictures of them playing on the fields. Did they use the school for a training camp, or have any more serious involvement in it? <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Done. They actually use it every year.
 * Worth adding, if you can find a source? <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 13:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Had I found the source, I would have inserted it.


 * Tuition for 2020 was £21,000 per year, plus other mandatory and optional fees: this is cited to a document for the 2008–2009 academic year.
 * Updated and fixed.
 * Now works well, though I'd suggest clarifying, using another source, that there are three terms in a year. This may not be obvious to non-Anglosphere readers. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh my. Done.


 * This served until around 1657, when the Latymer Charity School for the parish was founded in the churchyard of St Paul's, Hammersmith: the source does not give it this name.
 * Edited.
 * We should now decap "charity school", as it's no longer a proper noun. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Done. If there are any more such minor tweaks, feel free just to fix them directly.


 * The school has a substantial fund from donations ring-fenced to fund bursaries; in 2017–18 it had a total income of £34.7 million, with a surplus over expenditure of £8.2 million. Of that surplus, £7.9 million was from ring-fenced donations for bursaries; the school added £2.5 million to that to pay for bursaries during that tax year: this is partly sourced to an article from 2013. It's also pretty heavily CLOPped from TES: Latymer Upper School’s accounts also showed that £7.9 million of its £8.2 million surplus came from donations ring-fenced to fund bursaries. It also spent another £2.5m on bursaries in that year
 * Rewritten from new source, concentrating on the fees side. I don't agree about "heavily CLOPped", it was completely rewritten; I've now deleted that paragraph and won't revisit it.
 * The edit works: it leaves out a great deal, but for GA we only need the key aspects of the topic. Given that we're working from the school's own publication, we have to be very conservative about the level of detail per WP:PROMO, WP:SELFPUB and so on. Personally, I think the school's stated ambition to become needs-blind is notable, and it's also worth stating that they put a deadline on that "1 in 4" commitment of 2024 -- presumably, they meant September 2024, but have they given an update to say that they've met it? <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not yet. Added a word about the ambition.


 * In 1945, Latymer became a direct grant grammar school, meaning that it took both state-funded and fee-paying pupils. At the same time, its head joined the Headmasters' Conference.: the source does not say that these two things happened at the same time, only in the same year. Strictly, it only says that he was invited, but I think we can take it as read that he accepted.
 * Noted.
 * The "at the same time" remains, against WP:TSI. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Gone, I had no idea that was your problem.


 * I am a concerned about "Latymer 400": it is essentially self-published by the school. It's holding a fair deal of weight, particularly about things (such as the original intention of the school's founding, the awards it has won and the internal reaction to going co-ed) that we would not normally be comfortable getting from a non-independent source.
 * The materials are reliable and directly concern the school, as is required when using primary sources. British History Online (the PD source) goes only up to the 1960s and has gaps before that; other sources say little about details within the school. I've cut the reaction bit, at the risk of being accused of whitewashing, so again we're down to bare events.
 * The materials are reliable: on what basis do you say that? Per WP:SELFPUB, the general presumption is that anything published by its own subject should be regarded as unreliable, and used only with great caution -- such as, for instance, per WP:PRIMARY, where we would qualify everything it says with "according to the school's own publication..." or similar. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think we're about down to bare facts, which is precisely what WP:PRIMARY says is what we should use such sources for. I don't think that repeating the explicit attribution 20 times through the text is going to add anything to the article's readability, while both the type of material and the sources make the attribution clear.
 * WP:DUEWEIGHT requires, for inclusion, information to be published in reliable, independent, published sources (emphasis mine). I'm not going to kick up a huge fuss over citing items of architectural history to a source linked with the school, but there is a real problem with using it for the school's achievements and accolades. This is particularly an issue for . It may be true, and it may be bare facts, but if we can't show it in an reliable, independent source, it's WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. See also, which is woolly and arguably promotional on its own ("increasing" from what to what?), particularly given the importance of bursaries in the school's branding and indeed current political debates in which it, as an HMC school, is involved. Again, I take your point that the facts here may well be true, but there is almost always a great deal of information about a subject -- particularly one such as a school -- which is true but shouldn't be included in its Wikipedia article, for all sorts of reasons. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 13:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair enough.
 * TES: cited TES directly.
 * Fundraising: removed.
 * Happy here. By the letter of the guidelines, the TES (NB italics) citation isn't strictly kosher, as it's not independent of the body who gave the awards, but I think the TES itself is notable enough in the world of education to justify not getting too excited. If anyone like Tatler or the Good Schools Guide have mentioned these awards, you could always add a cite to them to make it absolutely ironclad. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 16:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I do not think it remotely plausible that either Latymer or the TES would lie about the TES awards. BTW the watchlist mechanism on this seems to be broken so please ping me if you need my attention again, otherwise we're both waiting for some event or other... Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The issue here is notability and due weight, rather than truthfulness per se, but I think the current framing is perfectly fine for where we are. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 14:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Noted.


 * The quotation in note 3 (""Putting the best possible case for being a public school in this day and age") is no longer needed, as the article no longer claims that the school is a public school. As it's highly promotional and no longer has any verifiability reason for inclusion, it should be removed. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 11:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Removed.


 * One more, sorry -- what's the logic as to which sources are cited in the Bibliography? There are only two, while many more are cited in footnotes.
 * They are the two specific histories of the school, as opposed to more general documents.


 * On a more pedantic note, and not required for GA, the citation style is a little inconsistent (see n. 47 vs. n. 52, for instance) and there are a couple of typos (see note 11: an extra "1" in the title and a hyphen instead of an endash).
 * Noted, I've fixed those. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:41, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

– I think we're all done now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * There are still some nits to pick in the sourcing with regard to formatting, but the bar here for GA only requires that a reviewer can identify the sources, and that's manifestly the case. I think we've got everything the criteria ask for now: passing. Good work on the article and thank you for your patience with what hasn't been the easiest review process. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC)