Talk:Laura Owen

Neutral point of view
The repeated, unexplained deletion of substantial portions of this article appears to violate Wikipedia's requirement that content be written with a neutral point of view. The subject's notability was debated at Articles for deletion/Laura Owen, and the facts that contribute most substantially to her notability (and even the name she used when she was in public office) are among those that are being removed. I have posted a thread at WP:NPOV/N to obtain opinions from other editors. --Arxiloxos (talk) 00:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Upset editor
please explain, calmly, what you find objectionable. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:51, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * same question to and  who appear to be WP:SOCKs of the now blocked Loveconquers1. Jytdog (talk) 03:44, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * actually was just blocked for username violation. Jytdog (talk) 03:47, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * now too? Jytdog (talk) 05:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * new editor appears to be another instance of the same editor, back now after having done some research, but still not really talking with us... Jytdog (talk) 19:42, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Affiliated with, but not the same. Gunner Sabot (talk) 20:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm watching this page, so let us know if you would like help with anything further. Jytdog (talk) 16:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion
Saw the page has some edit warring controversy going on about the Governor Finney mention. One thing I'd mention that might provide some context to the article is that Finney had a revolving door of cabinet officials, 21 officials for 10 posts in 18 months.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/242295/TURNOVERS-ABOUND-FOR-GOVERNOR.html?pg=all

A good paragraph providing the context might be:

In January 1991, she was appointed Secretary of Commerce by Governor Joan Finney. Governor Finney fired her from the position in June 1992, after she took a trip to the Middle East that was characterized as unauthorized expenditures, and also after a disagreement between her and the governor about a proposed bond issue. This was one of many firings by Kinney over an 18-month period, with 10 cabinet posts held by 21 people over that time span. Owen at the time called it "unlikely" that her firing was due to the travel expenses.

I propose this edit because it would provide needed context about the fact that Finney was firing numerous people, not just Owen, and would give a mention to Owen's claims just to err on the side of WP:BLP policy. I disagree with LoveConquers that the controversy should be removed, but perhaps some additional context can be provided so both sides are presented. --7157.118.25a (talk) 23:00, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

7157.118.25a your addition of the turn over adds depth to the article, but the reason for recommendation of deletion is based on the reason for the initial creation of the article itself (slander). The article initially referenced is more of a tabloid than actual fact. The initial article from the Topeka journal with the exact citation from governor finny would need to be referenced to support such a claim as "fired for unauthorized expenditures". As it currently stands, a statement is being made citing a tabloid which cites (without proper citation) another news source.Gunner Sabot (talk) 19:01, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:BLPPROD
This is a page of a living person and only created to tarnish their public profile. It's purpose is more of a tabloid than actual fact. Most of the articles referenced are from opinion pieces from small newspapers with zero news credibility. Other citations are taken out of context and completely irrelevant to the statement being made. I ask that you put it up for deletion / removal. As shown in the history, the creator has already had the page taken down multiple times for copyright violation, but still continues to try and re post the page.

Your assistance would be appreciated.

WP:BLPPROD — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunner Sabot (talk • contribs) 18:37, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2015
remove : Governor Finney fired her from the position in June 1992, after she took a trip to the Middle East that was characterized as unauthorized expenditures, and also after a disagreement between her and the governor about a proposed bond issue.

Above referenced article doesn't say anything about being fired or unauthorized expenditures. Article referenced is an opinion piece, not news. Only written as slander, does not add merit to the page.

Page is of a living person.

Gunner Sabot (talk) 18:50, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

❌ article is cited to AP (Associated Press) - a reputable agency, and is not an "opinion piece". The article specifically states "Just days before the Governor fired her" so your claim that the "article doesn't say anything about being fired" is clearly untrue as well. - Arjayay (talk) 19:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but the claim about unauthorized expenditures is not correctly cited from this article. As you corrected stated, "Just days before the Governor fired her", is discussing the bond issue, not expenditures. It was cited out of context as slander.

WP:RAA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunner Sabot (talk • contribs) 19:13, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ I think that Gunner Sabot has a good point (too stridently stated) about the description of Owen's firing. I just made this change to make the content more accurately reflect the source.  Gunner does that address your objection? And thank for you articulating a concrete problem.  Jytdog (talk) 19:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog I believe your update does more accurately reflect the source. Thank you for the edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunner Sabot (talk • contribs) 20:18, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hooray!!!!  If there are other concrete things - actual sentences -  that you are unhappy with, would you please identify them?   No need for invective - please just identify them - like copy/paste them here - and say clearly and calmly what you see wrong with them. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 20:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

:


G10. Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose Gunner Sabot (talk) 19:08, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * you've not explained, in a calm and rational way, what is wrong with the article. Jytdog (talk) 19:41, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

It was my belief that since the page was of a living person and the initial (unedited) page listed a significant amount of half truths with incorrect citing that it was proper to request the page be taken down under G10. ''Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment''.The page has since been edited by others (to include yourself) in an effort to correct this mis information. Having said that, I believe the creation of the page was for the purpose of spreading mis-information in order to tarnish an online image, what amounts to cyber bullying. What the page is now, is just a watered down version of that. If an argument can be made for the need of Laura Owen's biography, I am willing to hear it. Although she did hold public office for a short time, she is now a private citizen. I appreciate yours and others, oversight on this. I believe the matter will be resolved shortly.

Again, my apologies for the multiple delete requests. In an effort to appropriately request deletion of the page, I inadvertently duplicated my requests.Gunner Sabot (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2015 (UTC)Gunner Sabot (talk) 20:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for talking. OK, I have no idea what the motivations of the person were, who created the page, and you cannot know either.   One thing we do around here, is we assume good faith about each other (WP:AGF) - that is one of the pillars of Wikipedia.  Turning to the article, and deletion.  There are criteria for articles to exist or not in Wikipedia.  Those are described in WP:NOTABILITY and for biographies, WP:Notability (people).   People do create new articles in WP everyday that get deleted because the articles fail NOTABILITY.   You can see at the top of this page, at the bottom of the yellowish box, that this article was nominated for deletion back in December.  If you click on the link on "discussion" there, you can see the discussion was pretty thin.   A new nomination for deletion ~might~ have different results.  However, I think that there are plenty of sources to show that Owen is notable and that Owen meets the criteria in WP:Notability (people).   In my opinion, the chances of a second nomination getting consensus to delete, are very, very low.   Like I said, you can certainly try nominating it, and I would be willing to help you do that. (i would advise you, for example, not to speculate about the motivations of the person who created the article, but rather focus, clearly and concisely, on how Owen does not meet the criteria in WP:Notability (people) - most of the editing community here responds to rational discussion based on policies and responds badly to discussion that violates policies such as AGF.)    But I think  nominating it would be a waste of time and it would be better to work on improving any flaws you see in the article.  Let me know how you want to proceed. Jytdog (talk) 20:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Jytodog unfortunately I wasn't brought in on this until the thin discussion of the deletion had already passed. I am familiar with WP:Notability and must just interpret it differently than you. I believe that the combination of the WP:Notabilty (people) guidelines in conjunction with WP:BLP, just strengthens my point that this article has very little merit to exist. I appreciate your assumption that all pages have purpose and WP:AGF, but I read this page without bias or assumptions (good or bad) and see it as just a waste of bytes. I would no sooner want a page about my life, with random hand picked moments, in an attempt to tell a story about one random person in this very large world. Some people like their privacy and as I re posted above, I believe that is supposed to be a pillar as well. Gunner Sabot (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Let me know if you would like help with anything. Good luck! Jytdog (talk) 21:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

France
Through the OTRS system (ticket # linked to in the template above) the subject has contested the claim that she grew up in France. Unfortunately that's what the source says. If no one objects I will remove it since it seems irrelevant to the overall biographical picture. I did previously remove a claim that she studied at the Sorbonne, which was unsupported by any of the sources. § FreeRangeFrog croak 22:17, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your work! I am fine with removing the "grew up in France" thing - the only place i find that is in the source given in our article now. Her studying at the Sorbonne (currently deleted) could be sourced to  and . Jytdog (talk) 22:39, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Unauthorized travel
I think most of the recent changes to this article have been fine, but I strongly object to the removal of the information that Governor Finney fired Owen from her post as Secretary of Commerce because of what the governor said was unauthorized travel. This was widely reported, for example in the following series of reports from AP reporters:


 * "Finney cabinet official 'stunned' by firing", June 26, 1992: "Ousted Commerce Secretary Laura Nicholl defends a recent trip she took to the Middle East as part of her job. She says there is another reason Gov. Joan Finney fired her, but she won't talk about it. . . . She said she expects the real reason to become public at some point, but it won't come from her. . . . Asked if she believes Finney was looking for an excuse to fire her, she replied, 'One can certainly assume that.'  . . . Finney confirmed Thursday that she had fired Nicholl on Wednesday for allegedly disobeying her orders regarding travel at taxpayer expense."


 * "Finney Defends Firing", July 1, 1992: "Mrs. Finney fired Laura Nicholl last week, saying the commerce secretary had taken an unauthorized trip to the Middle East."


 * "Finney keeps campaign promise to be different", August 2, 1992: "Rumors began circulating in less than eight months that Nicholl's overseas travel had angered the governor. Finney fired Nicholl on June 25, saying the commerce secretary disobeyed orders not to take a trip to the Middle East".


 * "Finney defends new appointee", August 7, 1992: "He [Wichita mayor Bob Knight] replaces Laura Nicholl, who was fired after the governor said she took excessive foreign trips."'


 * "Turnovers abound for governor", August 16, 1992: "Finney fired Nicholl on June 25 for disobeying orders not to travel overseas for agency business."

This article began its existence, before the AfD, as a piece of promotional puffery and it should not be permitted to go back to that condition. --Arxiloxos (talk) 03:13, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. It wasn't my intention to stealthily remove that, but rather I was looking at the two sources where the governor's daughter says the trip expenses thing had nothing to do with the dismissal, and the emphasis on the disagreement over the bond issue, which I thought was more important. The first source you provided clearly quotes the governor as saying the reason was the expense thing. I'm busy in real life and not able to sustain edits, so please give me until tomorrow and I'll add that back - or feel free to add it yourself, with the usual precaution to say what the sources actually say. § FreeRangeFrog  croak 03:27, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I had fixed this already to the satisfaction of Gunner, who had thanked me for changing the article to the language you deleted, FreeRangeFrog. I think that was fine. Jytdog (talk) 05:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You wrote here Owen told reporters that she was likely fired due to a disagreement with the governor over the costs of a trip that Owen took to the Middle East - I removed that because that's not in the given source :) In reality the sources are all over the place here - some quote the governor's daughter saying she was fired because of the expenses thing, some have her saying it was because of that... confusing. § FreeRangeFrog croak 02:21, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * omg the source says, that she said, it is UNlikely that she was fired over the travel. I missed that crucial "un", separated by a hyphen from "likely" in the source. my apologies. Jytdog (talk) 12:08, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The travel was the governor's official reason for the termination, as reported in multiple sources as noted above, as well as in the July 3, 1992 AP/Fort Scott Tribune article that discusses the bond issue. In that article, the governor and the governor's daughter/chief of staff, Mary Holladay, again say that the decision to fire Owen had already been made because of the travel, before the bond issue disagreement. (Perhaps some of the confusion noted above comes because these articles all refer to Owen as Laura Nicholl, her name at the time.) I've reworded the paragraph accordingly. --Arxiloxos (talk) 15:43, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, very well edited. I may have an additional offline source provided by the subject that supports her claim that she was forced to resign, as soon as I have the full citation and verified I will incorporate it for balance into the paragraph as well. § FreeRangeFrog croak 16:28, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

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