Talk:Laurel and Hardy/Archive 1

first official pairing
This article mentions The Second Hundred Years as the first "official" pairing of the duo. Is this accurate? I have a book that says their official pairing started with Putting Pants on Philip. Minaker 11:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The book is correct.Operating 12:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

A lot of this page is copied from http://www.geocities.com/fewsterman10/ (huge page, search for one of the phrases). Is it the same author or a copyright issue? -- Gaurav 11:34, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * I think, but cannot be absolutely certain, that the converse is true - the geocities page copies Wikipedia. I wrote much of the 'copied' material and for sources I used a number of books, notably the 'Biographical Dictionary of Film.' I have absolutely no recollection of using the 'John Ebenezer West' page. I would have never plagarised in such a crude and obvious fashion ;) -- TwoOneTwo (not logged in)


 * I don't normally do this, but I have to commend you for this absolutely brilliant article. Well done. Jtpaladin 22:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you're right: they swiped from us (or, rather, you) - DavidWBrooks 17:23, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The most famous?
Anybody who doubts that L&H are in fact the most famous comedy in film history should mention one comedy duo that is more famous! - Abbott & Costello? No! - Martin & Lewis? No! - ......?

(80.184.92.139 16:40, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC))


 * Abbott and Costello are, IMHO, equally well known. Not nearly as good, I'll grant you, but in terms of people recognizing the name of the comedy team, they are right up there. That's why we shouldn't be didactic in this article; however, I'm not going to change it back to "one of the most" because it's not worth an edit war.

A&C may be equally well-known in America, but in Germany, for instance, hardly anybody still knows them, while virtually everybody knows L&H or "Dick und Doof", as they are called there. (80.184.92.227 04:47, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC))


 * : and the UK. Never heard of A&C till i came to the USA this year, back home in the UK they are not known, but everyone knows L&H!


 * But be careful about making absolute statements; if nothing else, they make articles sound like more of the gushing fan-boy stuff that already litters the Web. - DavidWBrooks 17:23, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

In general, you´re right. But even someone who idolizes, for example, Bach can justifiably claim that he is the most famous and, arguably, the greatest composer of the baroque era. So my point is that you can both be a fan and judge things from an unbiased point of view! (80.184.92.227 04:47, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC))


 * Good point about non-American famousness, I must admit. Abbott and Costello are very wordy humor and probably don't translate as well as the almost-silent Laurel and Hardy. ("Dick und Doof", eh? I wonder how those names were chosen?) - DavidWBrooks 13:34, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, Ollie is fat (=dick) and Stan is dumb (=doof) (of course only the Stan in the films). So "Dick & Doof" means "Fatty & Dummy". By the way, I don´t like and don´t use these nicknames, because I consider them too derogatory. The boys knew why they always introduced themselves as Mr Laurel & Mr Hardy! (80.184.92.119 19:38, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC))


 * Ditto on the duo's fame in Sweden (and probably the rest of Scandinavia). Abbott & Costello and Martin & Lewis are by comparison unknown over here. Laurel & Hardy (known in Sweden as Helan & Halvan, i.e. The Whole & The Half!) are still wellknown by most people here.AEriksson 10:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed the summary sentence from "most famous", to "most known" for the sake of taking any opinions out of the article. --Hoovernj 19:29, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am not sure that their comedy was predominantly slapstick, much of it revolved around the interactions of plot and characters.


 * As a child, I was far more familiar with Abbot and Costello as their films were shown on television a great deal-- but much of their comedy was verbal and relied on wordplay that simply would not have translated well into other languages-- or even to other anglophone nations due to differences in dialect and accent.  Laurel & Hardy's comedy was primarily physical and and so was more portable to other cultures.  On the otherhand, there were certainly other great comic duos who transcended national barriers such as Footit and Chocolat (an Englishman and a Cuban who made their name as cicus clowns in France!IanThal 23:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In Italy,just like in the UK and in Sweden, L&H ("Stanlio e Ollio") are fare more famous than Abbot and Costello ("Gianni e Pinotto"). I would venture that there are people who never heard of A&C, whereas this is quite impossible for L&H. --S vecchiato (talk) 13:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Utopia
I changed the bit about Utopia being an "abomination", as it is not NPOV. I happen to find the film very funny. (Ibaranoff24 04:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC))

"Compare to" section
Do any of these teams really have anything in common with Laurel and Hardy (other than them being a duo of two guys thrown into humorous situations)? (Ibaranoff24 06:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC))

Would any of you consider Zazu Pitts and Thelma Todd similar to Laurel & Hardy? Certainly Hal Roach wanted to create a female version of them, although it wasn't successful. Nevertheless, in watching Pitts & Todd, you can see a little of The Boys in them. Erzahler 20:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I don't see the purpose of this section. A simple reference to Double Acts would suffice. Why on earth would the Chuckle brothers be seen as someone to compare to????


 * I removed the section. There are few comedy duos that actually have anything in common with Laurel and Hardy. (Ibaranoff24 23:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC))

Trivia
Ronnie Barker's "Seven of One" show had a Laurel and Hardy tribute episode, titled "Another Fine Mess" (I don't know if the plot is related to the L&H short). Ronnie Barker played "Ollie" and Roy Castle played "Stan" (not the names of their characters). In the episode, "Ollie" and "Stan" sneaked out to take part in a late night talent show (their act being "Laurel and Hardy"), and much L&H-esque comedy ensued. That's about all I can remember, really. Feel free to fill in the gaps, if you've seen the show recently. (81.197.111.96 22:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC))

Crick e Crock (Italian)
This message showed up on my Talk Page, but it really belongs here. Does anybody know whether the writer is correct? My Italian is so rudimentary that I can't really be sure from the few sources I examined in Italian. Anyway, here is the message:


 * You can keep your Crick e Crock thing if you want, but it is not a correct information. In Italy, such nickname is given to ANY Goofy couple, i.e. Mikey Mouse and Goofy, Donald Duck and Daisy and probably Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy. So it is NOT another Italian name for Stanlio e Ollio. Kedar 18:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, these are the sources I found: [] []

Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 21:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I do speak Italian fluently GeorgeLouis, and I read the two sources. As I said, Crick e Crock is not another Italian name for Laurel and Hardy, but just a nick name for all funny couples. But apparently you do not trust me -- Kedar 09:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Please, do not get personal. It is quite hurtful. One does not like to look at that sort of thing on one's computer screen.
 * A user named Galmgalm added the Crick e Crock reference and it was removed without explanation. I found what I thought were two good sources for Galmgalm's addition and reverted them based on those sources. Galmgalm not having seen fit to join in here, I am perfectly content to agree with Kedar's removal of the three words.
 * (It would be helpful when reverting to indicate the reason therefor in the edit summary.)
 * Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 14:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

KEDAR YOU WRONG!!! ABSOLUTELY!!! It is not a "nick name for all funny couples"! Stan Laurel & Oliver Hardy once were best known as "Cric & Croc" (and not Crick & Crock, as you write!) or as "il grasso e il magro" (the fat and the thin), especially during the Fascist Era. Mussolini, who owned a personal theater, was perhaps the first or one of the first persons to nickname them in that way. After the war, their name changed and they became Stanlio & Ollio. Today, they are known as Stanlio e Ollio or Laurel & Hardy. But you can find a song of the fascist time, "la marcetta di Cric e Croc", that became a cult-record for children 30-40 years after, between 1960-1980s; and Da Passano's comics. Hope it helps. http://www.laurel-e-hardy.it/html/sx/approfondimenti/newspaper/stampa/paper.htm http://www.afnews.info/public/afnews/scaringi.html http://www.bombacarta.org/gasoline/gasoline03_02.pdf    etc. Jack 00:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to ask Kedar what sources he/she is referring to. I'm Italian and I don't recall hearing "Cric e Croc" for any other comic couple than Laurel and Hardy. As a matter of fact, I found the actual song I used to listen to when I was a child. Its title is "La marcetta di Cric e Croc" and it refers precisely to Stanlio e Ollio, alias Laurel and Hardy. You can find it here http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=KXN4dnbAmaM. Enjoy! :-) --S vecchiato (talk) 10:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Image
The picture is down as a "screenshot", which it isn't (it is a studio publicity photo). Is this a copyright vio?Sambda 11:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * If the photographer is known then it would be copyright until 70 years after that photographer's death. If the photographer is not know then it should enter the public domain on January 1st 70 years after publication. If it was published in the year of the movie, as seems reasonable to assume, the image should be in the public domain by now, since the photographer is not given. AFAIK, IANAL.--Timtak (talk) 09:37, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

"Certainly proved Laurel right"?
The article is very informative but may be a bit long... but the problem I see with it is that the article often seems to venture to personal estimations of the quality of various movies. "History has certainly proved Laurel right: the weakest of their films are the ones possessing the most baggage, while the best are those that unblinkingly focus on Stan and Ollie." Even if this were the consensus of 100% of reviewers, either contemporaries of Laurel & Hardy or current film historians, this would still violate NPOV. Maybe "Subsequent history has seemed with the general public to bear Laurel's view out: The movies commonly accepted as the strongest focus unblinkingly on Stan and Ollie, while the weakest possess the most baggage." ArekExcelsior 21:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Lost
What are the three films which are lost?
 * Hats Off, Now I'll Tell One and The Rogue Song (film). Operating 17:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Laurelandhardychumpatoxford.jpg
Image:Laurelandhardychumpatoxford.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 05:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Deleting other language section
This is the English language version of wikipedia. There is no need to have this section when L&H pages already exist in all those languages. For formatting and linking reasons the robot references to L&H in other languages are appropriately logged and remain hidden from English language readers and that is how it should be. Operating 10:21, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Laurelandhardychumpatoxford.jpg
Image:Laurelandhardychumpatoxford.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 02:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Fixed the link to Billy West
It was linked to another Billy West before. Hope there's no objections.--Lordkelvin (talk) 16:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Gay couple
I just removed Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy from the List of LGBT couples. There is nothing in this article to indicate L&H were a gay couple - I know they played camp from time to time in a very subtle way in some of the shorts, but even then, that would have been acting (in the absence of evidence to the contrary, at least). Is there anything to suggest they were a couple in such a way? Neıl ☎  00:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No. They were often depicted sharing a bed - but in a far more innocent age. There was no overt suggestion of anything sexual. In fact, they were consistently portrayed as straight, either married, courting or trying to charm this or that female. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.164.105 (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hardy was given the nickname 'babe' because a gay barber used to say something like 'Nice-a baby, nice-a baby'. At least the book I read implied the barber was gay, if he wasn't then I have no idea what he was doing. Well anyway, the point is that that is the only time I have heard 'gay' and either 'Laurel or 'Hardy' in the same sentence. Except the daft notion that two men sharing a bed means they are a gay couple. The reason they did was that it was quite common back then when money was a lot tighter and so two buddies saving money by sharing a bed was a good idea, plus it opened up new comedy situations to exploit.--EchetusXe (talk) 23:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Popular culture
I added the inclusion of the Maurice Sendak, Caldecott-winning book, "In the Night Kitchen" as a significant use of the Laurel and Hardy visages in a childrens' work. It remains a standard in school libraries and the use of the nearly subliminal image of the pair is widely recognized as unique and one of the first uses of the comedy team's persona to reach a new audience, far removed from the children who once may have known of their films. FWiW, As a childrens' librarian, I came upon Sendak's work and found that there is a comprehensive body of literature that analyzes his style and evaluates its impact. That's the reason for including this note. Bzuk (talk) 01:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC).

Caldecott Medal winners
The Caldecott Medal was named in honor of nineteenth-century English illustrator Randolph Caldecott. It is awarded annually by the Association for Library Service to Children, a division of the American Library Association, to the artist of the most distinguished American picture book for children. The prize is the most prestigious one awarded to an illustrated book for children. Author/illustrator Maurice Sendak has not only won the Medal but various titles have also received the "Honor" which is awarded to the runner-ups each year. "In the Night Kitchen" was the 1971 Caldecott honor award book. This recognition of an an illustrated work is the highest tribute to a work. It surely should be considered in the same regard as a Simpsons' cartoon. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC).
 * I don't believe being the winner of this prize and mentioning L&H makes it worthwhile or notable. However as i'm unable to check the references i will no longer delete it. Operating (talk) 10:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * All you have to do to check the relevance of the Laurel and Hardy connection to Maurice Sendak is do a Google search. You will find numerous mentions in books, articles and electronic sources about Sendak's upbringing. He was a poor child who relished matinees at the movie theatre and countless authors have commented on his fascination with the duo. As a gifted illustrator in later life, he portrayed the pair in a lifelike homage in one of his books. It appears to be one of the few instances where the Laurel and Hardy team was depicted in childrens' literature. As a school librarian when I was taking university courses, one of the subjects was on "picture books" and Sendak was considered a master in this field. I recall one class entirely on his technique and impact of his style where the Laurel and Hardy connection was brought out. As a university lecture, this mix of popular cultural reference within a children's book was unusual and still sticks in my memory; Sendak's art was thought to be very relevant and an example of illustration that was more than decorative. The Laurel and Hardy connection was considered to be a visual representation of Sendak's childhood in that he was recapturing in a very personal way, his life story. Although no photographs exist of him as a child, the young boy in the book is thought to be Sendak himself, reliving moments of his life. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 11:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC).

Distribution in Europe, nicknames and dubbing
I think it may be very interesting to collect in a same page the translation of L&H in other countries, as one may find on the Spanish wikipage: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_gordo_y_el_flaco#Laurel_y_Hardy_en_otros_idiomas. Besides, an information available on the Italian page was that when the sound was added to films, Hal Roach asked Oliver and Hardy to dub their own films, repeating the same scenes in English, French, German, Spanish and Italian. The result was that, when dubbing was invented in 1933, Europeans were so used to L&H's "English" pronunciation that the distributors asked for it to be preserved in dubbing. This is why for example in the Italian dubbed version, the actors Mauro Zambuto and Alberto Sordi speak with a strong English accent. (And why whenever an English-speaking person speaks Italian with a strong accent, people tend to think of Laurel and Hardy! ;))) --S vecchiato (talk) 10:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

For Operating : Sorry, I read your post after adding mine about foreign dubbing. You are right that it may loaden the entry a lot, however, the distribution of L&H's films abroad brought up the question of dubbing, which was done by L&H themselves. In my opinion this is not a minor part of their professional history and also had important consequences in the perception of L&H in countries other than English-speaking ones. The celebrated Italian actor Alberto Sordi began his career as Oliver Hardy's dubber, and recalls in an interview that in their final years, Laurel and Hardy were so poor that they travelled across Europe playing their comedies, while they pretended to speak, but they were "dubbed" on stage by local actors. Sordi, in that interview, expressed the wish he would be never obliged in his life to accept that misery. Excuse my poor English. Cheers.--S vecchiato (talk) 11:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Leroy Shield
I have read in many places that the composer Leroy Shield was the uncredited composer of most if not all of the music used in the Oliver and Hardy movies. This deserves mention in the article. More information can be found at http://www.leroyshield.com/

Ormewood (talk) 16:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)