Talk:Laurynas Gucevičius

Similarity
Now that the unnecessary and almost childish banter has been put away in Archive 3, I return to my question (which I asked in good faith and in earnest). It is, if some of the participants in the debate regarding Gucevicius' nationality see any similarity in the recent debate concerning Jan Dzierzon? In a nutshell, the Polish side appears to be claiming that Dzierdon's name, his mother's maiden name, and the location of his birth, prove his Polish origins. The German claim rests largely on the basis of his citizenship and that the majority of his work was performed in the German language, in what was Germany. Perhaps an oversimplification, but I think that's the gist of it (excluding tombstones and a few other tidbits). In fairness to the German position, I believe they are claiming that his place of birth was German prior to the Partitions of the PLC (not sure). Perhaps analyzing this debate can help in trying to understand both positions in the debate concerning Gucevicius. Dr. Dan 03:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * And yet you voted against "Jan" after arguing here, and there again, contradicting yourself once again. A cynic might start to think that you just reflexively vote against any kind of Polish name anywhere anytime.radek (talk) 01:43, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

"NPOV" of Halibutt

 * 1) If Latin: Migance, then Polish must be Migańce.
 * 2) Why for NPOV is so necessary to transcribe Lithuanian names into Polish: Szymon Masul?
 * 3) Original source in church records writes: babtisavi infantem n(omi)ne Laurentium patris Symoni Masulis et Matris Catharinae Masulowa de villa Migance, but not as (original Catherine Masulowa née Ziekonaycia).Orionus 12:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It is yet another example of POV and Original research. reverted to previuos version. M.K. 14:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It was a custom in the times Guczewicz lived that church records were written in latin (very rarely in polish language). There is no evidence Guczewicz ever used lithuanian version of his surname. In 1790 he was nobled by polish king Stanisław August Poniatowski (Syrokomla coat of arms). His full name was then Wawrzyniec Montrym Żakowicz-Gucewicz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.8.173.250 (talk) 08:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Citations request
Requesting original and translated citations which could support current sentence which starts In his last will he dedicated all of his projects to. M.K. 09:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)P.s. as well as for In 1773 he joined the Academy of Vilnius under his Polish name. M.K. 09:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Wawrzyniec Gucewicz
name of the art should be Wawrzyniec Gucewicz because majority of English language dictionaries of art states so. See Mathiasrex (talk) 23:02, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Wrong, he's Laurynas Stuoka-Gucevičius of his surname. He's not polish and his surname can't be written in this language.--86.100.205.18 (talk) 14:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, this isn't about the name, actually. It is about whether ha was Polish or rather born a Lithuanian and spoke Lithuanian in his youth, and built hos major works in Lithuania proper. It seems that modern Polish nationalists are going too far a bit, searching for something, that was never there. Read Krajowcy, for God's sake, to understand what you've lost bowing to the endecja. To put it simply - you've lost all the land that gave Poland Kings and Presidents (are you aware, that the current President of Poland had a Grandfather, who was a Lithuanian Army volunteer during the independence wars of Lithuania. And Pilsudski, And Narutowicz. Gosh.Lokyz (talk) 23:30, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Gucewicz never use form Stuoka-Gucevičius, maybe Gucevičius, and mostly Gucewicz (Gucevičius is a lithuanian translation of polish surname Gucewicz, and Stuoka adding to surname is used only by lithuanian publicist). In 1790 Gucewicz became noble (he received nobility from polish Sejm, coat of arms: Syrokomla; his full name was Wawrzyniec Montrym Żakowicz-Gucewicz, coat of arms Syrokomla). Poznaniak

If most English language sources call him "Wawrzyniec Gucewicz" then that's what the name of the article should be. I haven't checked myself if that's the case, but the argument of the OP is valid. Volunteer Marek 21:48, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Latin
Why exactly does this article have Latin versions of names in place of Polish versions? Yes, I realize that there is a "source" - a baptismal certificate written in Latin but that is clearly not useful here. Otherwise we'd have to put in Latin versions of names for all people baptized in the Roman Catholic church at this time. So while the info is "sourced" it's inclusion is also nonsensical, especially since the motivation seems to be "anything but Polish". Volunteer Marek 21:47, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Polish
Polish names of remote villages in Lithuania near the border with Latvia doesn't make sense here. Polish names of peasants ethnic Lithuanians in the remote villages near the border with Latvia seem not making any sense too. Otherwise, we could put Polish place names and people names for all the people(s) within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at this time. Žemėpatis (talk) 19:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Considering this individual is of heritage where both languages were important, it seems likely that the Polish name of his place of birth is related in this context. The only reason not to include it is if we were to try to deny his connections to Poland, which would not be a neutral approach. The Polish name should stay, just like should the Lithuania one.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

1) The birth of a person, who will be important for some culture, doesn't change the name of the village or town. That's why we do not have Lithuanian name of a place, where Tadas Ivanauskas was born in an English language article. According to the 2011 census, there were 55 Poles in the whole of Kupiškis district (out of more than 21 000). In this particular village, less than 100 people live today... Are there any evidences of different ethnic composition in the XVIIIth century? Then the name could stay.

2) Considering this particular person, nobody denies, that he is as well, part of Polish heritage too, and during his lifetime was widely using Polish language, being Lithuanian. Though, his parents, godmother, relatives is entirely different question. --Žemėpatis (talk) 23:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Just read WP:NCGN. For people with shared heritage, such as P-L case, we use the name of both locales. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:20, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

- Paris(Paryż)? - Istanbul(Stambuł)? Žemėpatis (talk) 21:52, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The difference is that there were few Poles in those places, whereas most Lithuanian cities at that time were speaking Polish (and Yddish), not Lithuanian. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:08, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to provide any numbers. :) Or is it just original research of Yours? By the way, in the middle ages in England, French language was spoken and in Russia during the 17-18th century, French was too widespread among the higher strata of the society. I wonder, why the the names of the cities, towns and villages are not written in that language in the articles of England or Russia. Also, according to the historical sources, Latin language was widespread in the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth in the 15th - early 17th centuries, nobles were pretending speaking Latin even daily. Žemėpatis (talk) 10:01, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

RIP
Actually, Gucevičius was NOT buried in Rasos cemetery, as this cemetery was opened a little bit later. There is no consensus of the place of his burial. In the book, dedicated to Gucevičius, it is said, that there are at least three places in Vilnius where he may be resting: 1) Near the closed St. Nicodemus church near the Gates of Dawn, where the cemetery of the church was. 2) After the closure of the church, the bodies were transferred probably to the graveyard near the St. Stepehen church. 3) Rasos cemetery is named as the burial place of Gucevičius only in the mid. or late 19th century, when the first travel guide books appeared, but it is unknown, how the writers knew it or was it only their imagination. There are some evidences, that he is actually not burried in Rasos, that are discussed in the article. The article in this book says, that the most probable place is St. Stepehn's church yard:

The place of supposed grave of Gucevičius is marked of St. Stephen's church. Žemėpatis (talk) 02:56, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Wawrzyniec Gucewicz was a Polish architect
This article should be moved to “Wawrzyniec Gucewicz” The reasons are:
 * 1. The standard Lithuanian language was invented in the 20th century by Jonas Jablonskis (founder of the standard Lithuanian language) – 100 years (Sic!) after the death of Wawrzyniec
 * 2. Wawrzyniec considered himself Polish and his native language was Polish (he never used the Lithuanian version of his name)
 * 3. There is no evidence that he spoke Lithuanian
 * 4. There is no pre 1990 scientific work which would use the Lithuanian translation of his name
 * 5. “Laurynas Gucevičius” is just a modern translation of his name--87.185.126.130 (talk) 09:24, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * 1. No there were lots of dialects at that time and Lithuanian language still existed like Polish, Russian. Jablonskis only simplified it, changed lots of words.
 * 2. Please give evidences he considered himself Polish, if not your arguments are useless.
 * 3. He was born into a peasant family in Lithuania propria. Isn't that enough? Lithuanian mostly was spoken by peasants then and they're the only group thanks to that Lithuanian ever survived.
 * 4. Because Polish was dominant language and Lithuanian was spoken by peasants only, so why did he need to translate it to Lithuanian?
 * 5. No, it's not. Considering the fact that he was raised up as a Lithuanian peasant, his Lithuanian name could have been his real name, your "Wawrzyniec Gucewicz" is translation to Polish (talk) 16:37, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 12 July 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 19:50, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Laurynas Gucevičius → Wawrzyniec Gucewicz – Similar situation to Talk:Romuald Giedroyć, another Polish-Lithuanian figure that used Polish name during his life, here is his epitaph. Google books hits: Wawrzyniec Gucewicz: 639; Laurynas Gucevičius: 442 Marcelus (talk) 14:00, 12 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 00:01, 20 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Google books hits for another name of this person - Laurynas Stuoka: 725. The justification of WP:GOOGLETEST to rename the article to the Polonized 'Wawrzyniec Gucewicz' does not stand up to scrutiny. Furthermore, this person was born in ethnically Lithuanian lands (the Migonys village) to a clearly Lithuanian peasant family as written in Laurynas' baptism record. Logically speaking, a Lithuanian name is obviously more fitting than a Polish one. Cukrakalnis (talk) 23:15, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * "Stuoka" isn't his real name, he never used it. His birth name is "Masulis", later in life he adopted name "Gucewicz", and that's how he is known, which Google Test only proves Marcelus (talk) 12:44, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * False, another name (Laurynas Stuoka) is preferred for this person when looking at Google books hits. The Google Test proves what I said, thus denying, instead of proving, what you said. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:41, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It's maybe preferred, but the name itself is wrong, because he never used it: Masiulių aplinkoje būta ir Stuokų (pirminė forma Stoka). Jie į Migonis iš Panemunio apylinkių atsikėlė apie 1740 metus. Vienas jų, Stanislovas Stoka, kai mirė architekto senelis Petras Masiulis, vedė jo našlę Daratą, tai yra atėjo į Masiulių namus kaip užkurys. Suprantama, tokia tolima ir šalutinė giminystė architekto pavardei negalėjo turėti įtakos. Ir jis pats niekada Stoka ar Stuoka nesivadino. (Edmundas Rimša Marcelus (talk) 05:25, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose - clearly Lithuanian In ictu oculi (talk) 14:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @In ictu oculi we aren't talking about his nationality Marcelus (talk) 18:14, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure we are, what possible reason is there to give a Polish name to a Lithuanian? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Because he was using that name, and that name is the most popular one in the literature. There is a plenty Poles with German, French and so on names Marcelus (talk) 15:03, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Strongly oppose. No need to forcely Polonize EVERY prominent Lithuanian person in history, an attempt, what is being made again and again, and again by the Poles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.131.36.111 (talk) 09:32, 17 July 2022 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support. Per epitaph. Seems like this was a spelling he and his family would have used back then. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 16:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * In light of this closure and the fact that the subject himself used a Polish spelling of his name instead of Lithuanian, I'll also support the move. (but please have his Lithuanian version name plainly visible, right next to the Polish one, since some might be looking for that historical person using the Lithuanian version). - GizzyCatBella  🍁  19:19, 18 July 2022 (UTC)