Talk:Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs/Archive 1

Release date
Some sources show a release of November, but all the official sources I looked at (including the later re-releases) say December. Noel 21:16, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

no "Tell the Truth"?
Finally, added Tell the Truth. Had some horrible problems w/ referencing so I did a longer different version of footnoting it. If you want to improve on it, be my gues!!V Schauf (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC).

Personnel list
I've gotten rid of Duane Allman as a speical guest because he was/is always listed as a member of the band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.151.155 (talk • contribs) 19:59, 11 August 2006


 * I have this memory that that's how he's listed on the original two-disc album version, but I can't find my copy at the moment to verify that. He is just listed as a band member on the Polydor 2-CD release, and the 3-CD anniversary release, so I guess that's accurate then. Technically, he wasn't a member of the Dominos (he never toured with them anyway, or appeared on their later studio work, released on 'Crossroads'), just sat in on this one album. Noel (talk) 03:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I have the original double LP (ATCO SD 2-704) and Duane Allman is also listed there as a member of the Dominos. It would appear then that he was only a member for the recording of the album. So technically (if we're correct) that makes the band article and its template incorrect. --Bruce1ee talk 05:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

First sentence
I changed that it is considered one of Clapton's best albums, by adding that it was mainly a group effort than an Eric Clapton effort. Is this ok? You can change it back, but put your reasoning here. BlackSabbath1996 (talk) 00:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

What's with the claim that Rita Coolidge wrote the coda to Layla? Is it vandalism?
The main article on Layla credits Jim Gordon as do all the references in the main article. Rita Coolidge's article says nothing about it. Jim Gordon's own tragic history may make some people uneasy about his role in such a historic collaboration but credit is due where credit has been established. Just look at the numerous references in the main article. If no other editor puts for a reliable source backing up the claim that Jim Gordon lifted the piece from Coolidge, I'm going to reword that section. It's possible some earlier version of that melody did pop up on her sister's record since Gordon belonged to a group of musicians who often worked together which included Coolidge. I'm not saying "No" outright, I'm just saying a claim like that which runs counter to accepted history needs to be backed up with a solid reference or two.LiPollis (talk) 16:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Graham Nash says Rita wrote it in 2013 autobiography Wild Tales. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vawoolf (talk • contribs) 23:46, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Bobby Whitlock also says Rita Coolidge wrote it, in an interview in Goldmine from 2011. Some supporting evidence (which I linked in my (now reverted) edit) is the track "Time," written by Coolidge, and recorded by Booker T. and Priscilla (Coolidge): granted, that track (you can hear it on YouTube) was not released until 1973.

So the evidence is that a band member says Coolidge wrote it, another musician (Nash was involved with Coolidge for a time) supports that claim, and a song written by Coolidge uses the same chords and melody.

That may not be conclusive - but it certainly should be mentioned. I should note that Gordon's history has nothing to do with it: before he lost his mind, he was an excellent drummer.

I'm not going to get into an editing war with whoever reverted my changes, but as I said: there seems to be enough evidence to at least mention the competing claims in the article. 2fs (talk) 01:07, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Image of album cover art reversion of September 17, 2010
The image representing the Layla album cover art was reverted to its initial posting of October 5, 2005 to accurately portray the original color palette of the piece. This can be confirmed not merely by anyone possessing the orignal LP but by such supporting evidence as the sale of an autographed (by members of the Derek and the Dominos) for sale this date at thie website: http://www.ioffer.com/i/DEREK-AND-THE-DOMINOS-Autographed-LAYLA-Album-111552389 (enlarged image here: http://cdn3.ioffer.com/img/item/111/552/389/jxCSxPu19Q94pkF.jpg).

It's impossible to know how the morphed version of the artwork (replacing blues and violet with vivid aqua and lavendar, etc.) appeared and spread but it is not authentic.Wikiuser100 (talk) 22:20, 17 September 2010 (UTC)


 * See also note of this day on Talk page of LaylaCover.jpg. Wikiuser100 (talk) 22:21, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

References go here!
Please don't leave references in the External links section. They belong here! Here is one good source for this article:
 * Thanks! --Leahtwosaints (talk) 06:39, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011
Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the Allmusic template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links: --CactusBot (talk) 18:59, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=A15820rjac48b

Merger proposal
I propose that The Layla Sessions: 20th Anniversary Edition be merged into this article. It contains too little information on its own. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 05:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Statements that on release the album "was successful in the US" and "received generally positive reviews from contemporary music critics"
I think we need to check these two statements, because they certainly provide a different picture from the one given in the Derek and the Dominos article, and also from the general picture one gets from biographers about Layla's initial reception and its effect on Clapton. In the band article, we have this wording about the album's 1970 release: "it was a critical and commercial flop … It garnered little attention which some blamed on Polydor for a lack of promoting the record and general unawareness of Clapton's presence in the band." That statement's currently supported by "Shapiro" (without a page number), and it ties in with comments made by Dominos biographer Jan Reid, and also with the commonly held view that the lukewarm reception afforded Layla increased Clapton's despondency (after he had been rejected by Pattie Boyd, and after the deaths of his grandfather and Jim Hendrix), leading him to drop out of music completely for three years. In Eric Clapton, we currently have: "the Layla album received only lukewarm reviews upon release" – apparently attributed to The Layla Sessions liner notes, page 12.

Regarding the issue of whether it's accurate to say that the album was commercially successful, I'm no longer able to access the relevant pages in Shapiro's book or Reid's, in google – can someone else have a go maybe? For Reid, the book's here at Amazon, and I believe the page number would be 145 (at least, regarding the album's commercial fate), although I'm quite sure there has to be more than the one comment in that book, given that it's a Dominos biography.

In Shapiro's book – Shapiro, Harry (1992). Eric Clapton: Lost in the Blues. New York, NY: Da Capo Press. ISBN 0-306-80480-8. – there's mention that Layla "died" on release (p. 123) and was then "rediscovered" in 1972. The latter scenario relates to the History of Eric Clapton compilation, which, as described by William Ruhlmann (the same AllMusic contributor behind the "was successful in the US" statement) "helped transform the earlier Dominos album Layla & Other Assorted Love Songs into a belated hit".

A point to add here: Okay, the album peaked at number 16 on Billboard in 1970–71 and was certified gold in the US (where units were counted, of course – meaning each copy of a double LP = 2 units), but those achievements didn't necessarily amount to a "success" relative to the US chart peaks and sales for Clapton's albums with Cream and Blind Faith. Not only that, but Clapton viewed Layla as his masterpiece (as did Tom Dowd), so expectations were naturally very high. Yet sales, reviews, and concert attendance didn't reflect that. (I think it's Shapiro who says that venues were often only half-filled on the band's US tour.)

The other statement currently in this album article, that Layla "received generally positive reviews from contemporary music critics", is attributed to: McStravick, Summer; Roos, John (eds) (2001). Blues-Rock Explosion. Old Goat Publishing. p. 80. ISBN 0-9701332-7-8. Again, I'm not able to access that particular page – but I'm also wondering whether something in Shapiro and/or Reid contradicts the claim.

If someone could check these sources out, and/or provide an alternative from the many, many Clapton biographies, that would be excellent. Thanks! JG66 (talk) 15:49, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

To answer my own question(s) …
 * Part II

I've still not been able to access the relevant pages in McStravick & Roos and Reid, but here's Shapiro: "When it was released in December 1970, Layla was a critical and commercial flop. Lack of critical acclaim was always on the cards and, amazing at it may seem, Eric had hardly a good notice in Britain since Cream broke up … [When] 'Layla' was released as a single in July 1972, it was a smash hit in Britain and America. By then Eric had dropped out entirely and it was virtually posthumous acclaim, the success of a musician who had died … But when in 1970 Layla died, a little bit of Eric died with it."

In his autobiography (pages 136–37), Clapton writes: "when we put out the album it died a death, because even though word was beginning to seep out that 'Derek is Eric', I wasn't prepared to do any press or help it in any way … my hope was that the album would sell on its own merit. It didn't, of course …" Also, in a piece from Robert Dimery's 1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die (reproduced on the superseventies.com page linked from the article), Michael Heatley describes Layla as "a double vinyl album that, though it bombed at the time, has since been re-evaluated as a rock classic thanks to its title track's single success".

That's not to say that the album didn't enjoy some success in the US, per Ruhlmann in the AllMusic band bio, and I was surprised to find that the number 16 chart peak on Billboard was in December 1970, not in 1972. Although, as mentioned, Ruhlmann's statement at the Dominos article is contradicted by what he writes for The History of Eric Clapton ("the original Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs album had passed largely unnoticed when issued in 1970, but this compilation gave that earlier album's title song a new lease on life, especially on AM radio, turning it into a Top 10 hit which, in turn, revived interest in the original album and sent it soaring up the charts well over a year after its original release.") – and by Bruce Eder in AllMusic's article on In Concert ("The History of Eric Clapton compilation … had helped transform the earlier Dominos album Layla & Other Assorted Love Songs into a belated hit"). [I mistakenly attributed that quote to Ruhlmann previously, I think.] JG66 (talk) 04:04, 5 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I couldn't access p. 80 of Blues-Rock Explosion, but Amazon.com's preview of Reid's book gave me a really small snippet of a relevant quote, which I then searched in GoogleBooks and found this entire portion from "Page xvii" Dan56 (talk) 04:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks but all I'm getting from that link is a nice empty search page at google.com.au! (Dependent on territory obviously.)


 * Not to worry, I can grab the gist of what Reid says from another article where I've used his p. 145 statement – if I can just remember which article … Also, I've come across a few other quotes to support the point that commercial and/or critical response was disappointing; for example, Whitlock's "the album didn’t sell very well at first and the song itself wasn’t a hit until a year-and-a-half after the band broke up." The important thing is to avoid, or at least qualify, those bold statements that are currently in the album article: Layla "was successful [in the US]" and "received generally positive reviews from contemporary music critics". That's only an issue for me because, as mentioned, the band article gives a completely different picture (and since my first post here, I've managed to find the page #s in Shapiro's book). JG66 (talk) 05:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Ook, that's weird. The quote I see from Reid's book is "As those three continued to punish each other, the record that seemed and sounded so right in the Miami studio was at first a commercial flop. It never made the charts in England, and 2 years passed before "Layla" caught fire on FM stations in the United States. By then Clapton was on a self-destructive bender of heroin addiction." As for the Shapiro book, it seems like a more reliable source, so it'd make sense to replace what's currently in the article with what you got from Shapiro. Dan56 (talk) 05:58, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah thanks for that quote. Yep, I think Shapiro (and Reid, and others) have it right – although I can't help thinking they could be exaggerating the situation somewhat. Either that or it's a case of Shapiro focusing overly on the UK reception (where Layla was undoubtedly a flop), while McStravick & Roos might be referring to the US, where reviewers appear to have been kinder. JG66 (talk) 07:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Personnel
I was just about to make the change anyway, but thought I'd bring it to Talk first.

Looking through the edit history, the article's original Personnel list, back in 2004, followed the order given on the album itself. Then, in March 2012, we get this change – which, along with a later tweak, gives us the order of musicians and technical personnel we have now. An order for the band members that's bizarre, quite frankly (but at least a slight improvement on that change that placed Duane Allman first).

Whitlock was the first to join Clapton in England, post-Delaney & Bonnie, and he's certainly second in the hierarchy in terms of creative input (not to mention 2nd in the musician credits on the actual LP and in the CD booklet). More than that, Allman was never formally a member of the band, yet he currently appears second in the list in this article! In the CD booklet I have, Allman is listed fifth (his name given the same all-capitals treatment as for the official band members'), followed by "Albee" (Galuten), whose credit gets sentence-case treatment, like the technical personnel below the musicians. The treatment given Allman might have been different on the original LP, I don't know (Discogs images I've looked at are all too difficult to make out) – but perhaps that's why the editor in 2004 separated Allman from the band members, as "special guest performer".

Was there ever consensus for this 2012 change, does anyone know? It obviously sorted the lists (musicians and technical) into alphabetical order, but why? I know that something relevant to this issue was added to the MoS recently – "It's generally preferable to list the album's personnel in the same order that they are listed on the album packaging; however, local consensus may instead determine to list them in another order." Admittedly, there are many albums where personnel credits are inaccurate, I find, but I can't see any reason to diverge from the packaging in the case of Layla. (It's not as if anyone's missing, or musical parts/instruments on the recording are unaccounted for, or the published list misrepresents the true levels of contribution in some way – all the usual suspects.)

As I say, I've brought it here first, but this is what I'd like to change Personnel to read:


 * Derek and the Dominos
 * Eric Clapton – lead, rhythm, slide and acoustic guitars, lead vocals
 * Bobby Whitlock – organ, piano, vocals, acoustic guitar
 * Jim Gordon – drums, percussion, piano
 * Carl Radle – bass, percussion
 * Duane Allman – slide and acoustic guitars (tracks 4–14)


 * Guest musician
 * Albhy Galuten – piano, "assistance"


 * Technical personnel
 * Tom Dowd – executive production
 * Ron Albert – engineering
 * Chuck Kirkpatrick – engineering
 * Howie Albert – engineering
 * Carl Richardson – engineering
 * Mac Emmerman – engineering
 * Dennis M. Drake – mastering
 * Emile Théodore Frandsen de Schomberg – cover painting "La Fille au Bouquet"

Not sure about Allman being tagged on with the four Dominos – he's certainly not identified as a member in the band article. Also, seeing as we've got an article dedicated to The Layla Sessions: 20th Anniversary Edition, I can't help thinking the credits for that reissue belong there, not in this article(?). JG66 (talk) 11:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Though it's not a really big deal, I'm okay with changing the order to match the album. To your other question, Allman is absolutely a member of the band. True, he was only a member for the recording of this album and two concert appearances, but he was never treated as a "guest" but as a member. Especially since he is listed that way on the album. Perhaps the band article should reflect that he, along with Dave Mason, was a member for a time.Bob Caldwell CSL (talk) 14:37, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

According to Discogs, here, Layla was released on LP quite a few times. A friend of mine has a copy of the 1972 pressing on the Polydor label (PD-2-3501), and he sent me a photo of the band listing from the back cover. It lists the members in the same order as in JG66's first post in this section, and with similar but not identical instruments. What it actually says is this: "Derek and the Dominos: With thanks to Albee for piano & assistance"
 * Eric Clapton – guitars & lead vocals
 * Bobby Whitlock – organ, piano, vocals & acoustic guitar
 * Jim Gordon – drums, percussion & piano
 * Carl Radle – bass & percussion
 * Duane Allman – guitars

Ignoring for the moment the bit about Albee, I propose that this article list the band members the same way, with minor orthographic changes to conform to MOS:ALBUM, omitting the "&" and including a serial comma (e.g. "Eric Clapton – guitars, lead vocals"). — Mudwater (Talk) 01:20, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that, . I'd compiled that proposed Personnel list from the current version of the article, but hadn't been thinking about specific contributions/instruments. You're right – compared with the 2006 CD I have, there seems to have been some detail added. I agree with what you're proposing: replace the ampersands with commas.


 * With the treatment for Albee/Albhy Galuten, btw, I was following the MoS guideline: "There is no standard format for how these different types of groupings should be arranged—let circumstance dictate how to best present this information. In the case of an album released by a band, it might be useful to have the band members separated from other musicians and technical personnel." We've invented "Technical personnel", after all (in that the words don't appear in the official credits), so the addition of "Guest musician" seemed appropriate.


 * As you and I have been discussing, Mudwater, I'm not convinced about Allman ever having been a member of the Dominos. That's going from all I've read about the band – in other words, aside from how he was credited for his (admittedly crucial) contributions to the Layla album. I'll take up this issue in a new section below, though; I think that's important, in order to provide a link to this page from Talk:Derek and the Dominos. JG66 (talk) 05:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm in favor of listing Albhy Galuten separately as a "Guest musician", and listing the other people under "Technical personnel" or "Production", as you have suggested. As far as whether or not Duane Allman was an official member of the band, there might not be a definitive answer to that question.  So far I'm thinking the band members should be listed as in my previous post -- the same as on the LP except for the punctuation. — Mudwater (Talk) 07:16, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Duane Allman
– hi. Although you said "Perhaps the band article should reflect that [Allman], along with Dave Mason, was a member for a time", I can't help thinking your subsequent change in the band article was a bit premature. You say also (above) that Allman was "absolutely a member of the band" – but do you have any sources for that statement? Because, I've rewritten and expanded Derek and the Dominos up to the start of the section on the Layla sessions, and with all I've read so far about the band, in the sources I've used and will be using, I can't recall reading anything stating that Duane Allman actually joined the band, or was ever likely to. Yes, all four Dominos (particularly Clapton) welcomed him as an equal, but his participation was dependent on downtime in the Allman Brothers' schedule. That downtime, as I understand it, amounts to a maximum of ten days in the studio, and two or three live dates later in 1970. (This differs from the situation with Dave Mason, who was fully committed, but then returned to the States when he realised that Clapton had no intention of doing anything for a while yet.)

In a 2011 A.V. Club article, Noel Murray writes that "Clapton tried to steal Duane Allman for the band too. Instead, he had to settle for Allman playing ferociously on 11 of the album’s songs …" and he describes Allman as "never an official member of the band". The AllMusic bio reads: "Derek & the Dominos was a group formed by guitarist/singer Eric Clapton … with other former members of Delaney & Bonnie & Friends, in the spring of 1970. The rest of the lineup was Bobby Whitlock … Carl Radle … and Jim Gordon … From late August to early October, they recorded the celebrated double album Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs (November 1970) with guitarist Duane Allman sitting in." In an 2001 feature for Mojo, Harry Shapiro writes of the night Clapton and Allman first meet and go back to Criteria: "They were there until the small hours, by which time Eric had convinced Duane to become part of the project. Duane had two gigs to do with the brothers, then he said he'd be back." So, from those sources, it seems to me that all Allman did or was asked to do was "sit in" on the sessions, "become part of the [album] project".

In this 2013 Uncut article, Clapton says: "I tried to get Duane to leave the Allmans. But he said he had to be loyal to what he called ‘the family’." And in his 2007 autobiography, Clapton writes that he asked "Duane to play on the sessions while they [the Allman Brothers] were in town". In other words, again, Allman agreed to play on the album (just as he played on many sessions), but there was no question that he actually joined the Dominos. He was just a hugely important contributor to Layla (as every biographer, commentator and critic has observed). Also, it's worth noting that when the Dominos attempted to record a second album, in April–May 1971, it was just the four of them; I can't find any mention that Allman was even considered for that later project.

On the other hand, Clapton and the other Dominos saw to it that the album credited Allman as if he were a Domino. That can't be argued with. But then I'm wondering how, in the band article's infobox and "Band members" section, we can include Duane Allman when nothing in the main text there will actually support his inclusion. So I guess the question is (to you, Bob; to and, as editors who have participated in recent discussions here; and to any/everyone else who might do): is this album credit enough to warrant Allman's inclusion as an official member in the band article, in spite of all the sources who either omit him from the list, or state that he wasn't one, or state that he merely sat in on the Layla sessions in between his commitments to the Allmans? JG66 (talk) 15:09, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I think it is enough. On that album, Derek and the Dominos was presented to the world as Clapton, Whitlock, Radle, Gordon, and Allman. The length of time or the circumstances which allowed for his participation are not the determining factor. Allman was part of the band for the recording of the album; when invited to continue with them when they toured, he declined (I guess we could say he quit at that point).
 * We consider Randy Meisner to be part of Poco and he wasn't even credited with playing on the first album because he quit before it was released.
 * I think that the album credit is more than enough. If they considered him a member--no matter how briefly--we should do so as well.Bob Caldwell CSL (talk) 15:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Thinking about this a little more, I think treating both Allman and Mason as band members for purposes of the list on the Derek and the Dominos page is consistent with how other Wikipedia article treat band members. As Del Paxton says in That Thing You Do, "Bands come and go."
 * Furthermore, I think that including all six of them in the top box will not confuse anyone. Both the body of the article and the list in the Band Members section will make clear how each member was involved.
 * JG66 I appreciate your concern for precision; but perhaps you're over-thinking this one just a bit. Bob Caldwell CSL (talk) 16:06, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


 * a hearty laugh from me at your final comment there(!). What can I say – one gets forced down these roads through previous experiences on Wikipedia. (I wish you'd been there at discussions where I've received the full letter of the law, is all I can add …)
 * I hear what you're saying. But there is that issue regarding the album credit being the sole source, whereas commentators, biographers, Clapton and Whitlock in their autobiographies – none of them appear to recognise him in that light. (I don't know, there's some WP:Due … something or other.) Personally, I'm not bothered – it's not as if I want to see Allman excluded on principle. I've put the word out at Talk:Derek and the Dominos, so let's see what others have to say. Cheers, JG66 (talk) 16:30, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


 * JG66 Thanks for having a good sense of humor about it all. Bob Caldwell CSL (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not too familiar with the nature of Allman's "membership", but if he was an unofficial member, yet is credited as such in the album credits, then I'd suggest including him under the band credits in Personnel, but with an asterisk or footnote, leading to a line that succinctly explains this. hope that helps Dan56 (talk) 17:09, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

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