Talk:Lazar of Serbia/Archive 1

Untitled
Copyrighted text on this page used with permission. - Nikola 12:52, 24 September 2003 (UTC)

Untitled
Copyrighted text on this page used with permission. - Nikola 12:52, 24 September 2003 (UTC)

Mythical vs. historic Lazar
Price Lazar surrendered

"The fact that Lazar and a good number of his knights surrendered in a vain attempt to save their lives did not excuse Vuk's failure to continue fighting...in truth the story of Vuk's treason was the direct result of a propaganda campaign initiated by Milica's supporter's [Serbian Queen Milica is the Sultan's mother in law too] as part of her quarrel with the prince."

By http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Gerolymatos The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era to the Twentieth Century and Beyond page 29

http://books.google.com/books?id=vpg8M9E4-94C&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=The+fact+that+Lazar+and+a+good+number+of+his+knights+surrendered+in+a+vain+attempt+to+save+their+lives&source=web&ots=t2Hoxcb1HK&sig=lImvN83GEQc2dfbQyrZZRi9-G_E&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result This makes sense Serb movies portray him dying in captivity. He also states that Vuk wasn't the only one that left. Keep it Fake (talk) 20:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems like this leans quite heavily on the mythical perceptions of Lazar, as opposed to relying on the historical record. Which is not to say that the folk myth isn't an important aspect of Lazar, but maybe there should be two sections dealing with the historical figure vs. the legend. Because frankly the historical record isn't really all that scarce, it's just been overwhelmed by the hagiographic songs written in his own court after his death. I don't mind writing this but would like to first get some consensus before plunging into an edit war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tracer bullet (talk • contribs) 14:57, 26 August 2004 (UTC)


 * I did that at Marko Kraljevic. But I don't see some mythical elements in this article? Nikola 15:21, 29 August 2004 (UTC)


 * Well mostly the stuff about Vuk Brankovic being expected but not arriving at Kosovo (he was there, and he fought), and speculation about how a different outcome of the battle would alter the course of Serbian history.
 * It's very important to establish that the historical Lazar was just a feudal lord, not ruler of "Serbia" but mostly just a small territory around Krusevac. There are some things he did which were lasting - like shifting the centres of power northward, but in a historical sense he was a pretty insignificant ruler, especially compared to Dusan or Nemanja.--tracer_bullet 14:07, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

Also, not sure if "Prince" is the correct translation of "Knez". Perhaps that should be clarified, as well as noting that the mythical Lazar often assumes the title of "Tsar". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tracer bullet (talk • contribs) 14:57, 26 August 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, it should. Nikola 15:21, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Prince is the only valid translation of "Knez".Prince,meaning the son of king,who offtenly got a province to rule while his father is alive.The word of course got other meaning and it means the ruler of one part of the country.The other translations of the word "Knez" is Comes,which is simillar to word count,however,the Count is translated to Grof and it has nothing to do with Knez.Title Tzar (Tsar,Car,Emperor) is not valid with Lazar,because he was never crowned.It takes to patriarchs,or at least archibishops (archiepiscops) to crown a King into Emperor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.75.2 (talk • contribs) 17:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Prince is valid translation for Lazar, though note that it isn't for all knezes. For example, at one point of time knez could be simply village chief. Lazar was not crowned for tsar, but is oftenly called tsar in tradition, which should be noted. Nikola 10:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Marriage and Progeny
I have removed the following note from Olivera Despina since it is not true: "Balkan noblewomen married to an Ottoman sultan during this era of Turkish invasion were chosen into the sultan's harem.". Until Bayezid I's (and his wives') capture by Tamerlane in 1402, Ottoman Sultans married polygamously princesses of neighboring countries -- Byzantine, Serbian or daughters of other Turkish Khans. These women were not entered into the harem as an odalisque as the note implies. These were marriages contracted for political and dynastic reasons. Free smyrnan 13:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Illogical
"Although a pledged vassal to Stefan Uroš, in 1371 he refused to participate in the Battle of Marica"; Marica Battle was sole campaign of two Mrnjavcevic brothers,it didn't include Emperor Stefan V,so Lazar had no obligation to patricipate in the battle.Moreover,at the same time,Lazar forged an alliance with king Tvrtko of Bosnia (later of Serbia and Bosnia) against Nikola Altomanovic,Serbian noble who ruled western parts of Serbia (today - Uzice and Rashka Oblast).Vukasin Mrnjavcevic was also in this alliance but few days before the armies moved to attack Uzice,Vukasin got word from his brother Ugljesa,who ruled southern parts of once Serbian Empire (in today Macedonia or Bulgaria)that Turks are on the rise and that they must attack immediatelly.Vukasin left the Allies and went on Marica alone with his army.So Lazar never agreed to participate in campaign against Ottomans at that time,and Emperor was most probably unaware of this,esspecially considering that he was trying to make peace among the nobles (with little success obviously). --Vizantinac 11:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Grb Hrebeljanovica.jpg
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BetacommandBot 10:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Name
→ Lazar (hatnote Lazar (disambiguation)).--Z oupan 03:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Seal of Lazar found at Rudnik
.--Z oupan 06:17, 22 November 2015 (UTC)