Talk:League of Ireland Premier Division

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Country
I note that a team from Londonderry plays in this league, and as such the template can be used here to signify a Northern Irish element to the league. I will add this to the infobox. Astrotrain 19:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * A team From Derry plays in the league alright but the ulster banner shouldn't used you twat —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.202.141.234 (talk) 19:30, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * 1. The Ulster Banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland and hasnt been for over 30 years. 2. The Flag can be used when referring to the IFA or the Northern Ireland football team - this relates to neither.--Vintagekits 18:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Note that using the 🇮🇪 template points to Ireland- the island, rather than the Republic of Ireland- the state. Astrotrain 11:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Intro
The manual of style for Ireland-related topics states that, where confusion may arise, Republic of Ireland should be used rather than Ireland. Given that the League of Ireland Premier Division is the first tier of the Republic of Ireland's (not the whole island's) football league, the intro should therefore used Republic of Ireland. Confusion could arise because, in sport, Ireland is usually treated as a single unit. Football is an exception. Also, in football terms, "Republic of Ireland" is the UEFA- and FIFA-recognised name for the 26 counties. Mooretwin (talk) 21:39, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "national league", the clue is in the name. O Fenian (talk) 22:13, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Except the name is ambiguous. "National" can relate equally to the whole of Ireland as it does to the Republic. Especially in sport - Ireland national rugby union team being an obvious example. Please have regard to IMOS and self-revert. Mooretwin (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have read it, and do not now, nor will ever, agree with your edit. O Fenian (talk) 22:20, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You are admitting, therefore, to a straightforward unwillingness to abide by WP policy, as your claimed reason (above) for insisting on the "Ireland" piping disguise is not valid. Your motiviation for this must be left for others to infer. Mooretwin (talk) 11:03, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Because of the unwillingness to engage in discussion, we need input from other editors. I've posted a notice at WT:IECOLL. Mooretwin (talk) 11:25, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You mean you are canvasssing for support already because I was too busy to reply when it suited you? There is no ambiguity, there is no other national league for assocation football that covers the whole island. O Fenian (talk) 17:43, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * theres an IP trying to edit war it to Moore's version!-- Lerd the nerd wiki defender  17:45, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "National league" will be interpreted by most to refer to the state, not to the island. --HighKing (talk) 18:09, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that is a very unsafe assumption. Do people interpret the national rugby team to refer to the state, and not to the island. Or the national cricket team? What about the National Football League? That argument is unsustainable. Many people are not even aware that the state and island are not one. There is clearly potential for confusion, and no reason to set aside the IMOS policy. Unless, of course, one has an irrational opposition to the term "Republic of Ireland". Mooretwin (talk) 20:57, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's centralize these discussions back at the Application of IMOS page? They're all related.  --HighKing (talk) 00:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Ulster banner
O Fenian feels that there is no need for the flag that represents Northern Irish football to be used in the list of clubs for Derry City. It seems good enough for the infobox when stating that one team is from NI, however O Fenian seems to feel that we don't need to declare which team is the one that is actually from Northern Ireland. The flag is small and simple and its placement after Derry City makes it clear to the reader without having to go into describing it. Its placement before it by the editor who originally added was bad, but it fits better after "Derry City". It is also used on the article for the managers who are from Northern Ireland so i don't see what the problem is with it. Mabuska (talk) 21:33, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I assume you are familiar with the manual of style? O Fenian (talk) 21:37, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Which MoS or which part? Your previous reason for its removal was not a MoS but that it was "inconsistent". Whilst it may have been especially due to its placement it has relevance. And as stated its widely used for managers in the Republic who are from NI. The Ulster banner represents NI in football terms no? Is Derry City not a football team from Northern Ireland? Did they up and move to the Republic? Mabuska (talk) 22:34, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Well O Fenian can you provide a reason against its inclusion? Mabuska (talk) 13:48, 19 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The manual of style, as already stated. I suggest looking before typing in future. O Fenian (talk) 00:53, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Ditto to yourself, i asked which MOS or part. Care to provide a direct quote from it to back up your stance? Especially seeing as we are dealing with football teams and not political entities. Mabuska (talk) 14:44, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I would have hoped anyone planning to add an icon to an article would be already familiar with the relevant manual of style. There is no need for quotes, since that would involve pasting post of it here. O Fenian (talk) 17:31, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you not putting it in because you can't find it? For example I can quote WP:UCN with "Search engine results are subject to certain biases and technical limitations. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 19:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

There is a need for direct quotes O Fenian as i think you haven't got a case:

2 Flags
 * 2.1 Avoiding flag problems
 * 2.1.1 Inappropriate use
 * 2.1.1.1 Do not emphasize nationality without good reason - very good reason, shows which team is the one from NI
 * 2.1.1.2 Do not use flags to indicate locations of birth and death - not doing that so not a problem
 * 2.1.1.3 Avoid flag icons in infoboxes - not doing that, though we do use them in football infoboxes
 * 2.1.1.4 Do not use a flag when a picture of the subject is not available - not doing that either
 * 2.1.1.5 Do not use subnational flags without direct relevance - or that
 * 2.1.1.6 Do not use supernational flags without direct relevance - or that
 * 2.1.1.7 Accompany flags with country names - or that
 * * 2.1.1.8 Country can sometimes be omitted when flag re-used - or that.

Is it a case of WP:IDONTLIKE O Fenian? The manual of style doesn't back up your stance. The use of the icon has a very good valid reason and follows the precedent used for managers. Mabuska (talk) 23:56, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There already was a similar issue with similar discussion here with him. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 11:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That may as well be CoE, however i'd rather argue this issue on proper arguements. His arguement so far can't be backed up so the inclusion of the flag can be justified. Mabuska (talk) 12:11, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Who said it was the inappropriate use section? O Fenian (talk) 16:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Still providing nothing to back up your stance O Fenian? Not surprised. In response to your question - because there is nothing else in that policy article that you could use to back up your stance. Also if you want to use consistency as your arguement as you have in your reason for removing the icon then the flags should remain in the infobox. See Fußball-Bundesliga, Eredivisie, La Liga, and Ligue 1 for examples. Ligue 1 being the best example to show the style used for a team from another country (Monaco). Mabuska (talk) 21:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact Mo ainm raised a good point. Derry City isn't part or have a connection to the IFA anymore so the NI which represents NI football shouldn't be used to depict the country the team comes from. Rather we should use the Union Flag. Mabuska (talk) 21:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

In fact just for you O Fenian here are more football league articles that use flags: Campeonato Brasileiro Série A, Canadian Soccer League, Primera División de México, Argentine Primera División, Chinese Super League, J. League Division 1, National First Division - wierdly enough top division didn't have it but all lower leagues do, Papua New Guinea National Soccer League, Ligue Haïtienne, Algerian Ligue Professionnelle 1, etc. etc. though obviously all articles probably don't. It would appear that its a very consistent theme and one of your arguements was consistency. Mabuska (talk) 22:02, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Have you decided to just abandon the discussion O Fenian? A think a simple acceptable compromise can be done, which i will put into the article which means no need for a flag-icon after Derry City. Mabuska (talk) 13:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Correct flag or not
UEFA the governing body dont use the UB to represent Derry as seen here so totally against the UB being used here. Mo ainm ~Talk  15:26, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant as it is clear its referring to the national league that the team plays in which you probably full well know. If thats not what its referring to then the site is unreliable as Derry isn't in the Republic of Ireland, but we know what its reffering to. So it is utterly irrelevant as we are discussing depicting which team is from NI - not what country's league it plays in. This is a good example as well to backs up my view when you compare it the Ligue 1 article. On that basis i reverted your removal as there is no grounds for it. Mabuska (talk) 21:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The UB is not the flag of NI and the club dont play in or represent the IFA so the flag desn't go in. Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah in that regard you are correct as its using country names not league associations, which means that the Union Flag represents NI officially so it should be used instead. Mabuska (talk) 21:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Again the UB is not the flag of NI the club dont represent NI but represent ROI and it's use is purely an attempt at point scoring and is petty to say the least. Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Don't make accusations Mo Ainm, your only tarnishing your own arguement, as it would be very easy to say your opposition is point scoring. I even agreed that you where correct but you go on complaining for some reason. The team presents the RoI however its not from the RoI. Ligue 1 shows a perfect example of a league with a team from another country having its country stated. As i now agree to your reasons for seeing the removal of the UB this part of the discussion is over. Mabuska (talk) 22:02, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The use of the union jack in this article is ridiculous. All flags should be removed to take away the opportunity for political point scoring like this. Onetonycousins (talk) 14:23, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Seeing as most other football league articles include flags for the countries including Ligue 1 which has a team from another country, it is hardly point-scoring and is maintaining consistency throughout the articles. Why should this article be any different? Mabuska (talk) 14:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact this article since it was created has used a flag for the country box straight for over 4 years, though for some reason it was left out that one team didn't actually come from the Republic in it for a good while. Is it not political point scoring to argue that all flags should be removed just because you find it "rediculous" despite the fact there is technically nothing wrong with it. The use of the UB was wrong from the outset however. Mabuska (talk) 14:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The union flag is not used in soccer articles check the others, such as the Championship. Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:34, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * For some reason the Home Nations don't have flags in any of theirs for some reason despite the fact most other football league articles do. Mabuska (talk) 21:48, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That is because it is not used by UEFA and in this case UEFA use the Flag f Ireland as I have shown in the link I provided above. Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:51, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * And as i already stated you know rightly that that source is only declaring that Derry City play in the Republic of Ireland's league. For if thats not what it means then it is a unreliable source as its quite obvious to everyone that Derry City don't come from the RoI! Find a better source to back up your claim. Point scoring i think is the term you used? Mabuska (talk) 21:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I dont make any claim I am well aware were Derry is I come from there and UEFA the governing body of football in Europe use the Flag of Ireland to represent this team it's a verifiable fact. Cant see anywhere that the page claims that Derry isn't in NI. Mo ainm  ~Talk  22:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * They only do so as they play in that countries league. Difference here being which you keep dodging is that the infobox is on about the countries involved in that league. As stated before Ligue 1 uses the Monaco flag for Monaco whilst UEFA uses the French flag for that team. They must be wrong too! You may as try to argue your case on that as well. Mabuska (talk) 22:08, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe you could insert the Union Flag into The Championship your all in favour of consistency and keep harping on about other articles. Mo ainm  ~Talk  22:13, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thats just playful sarcasm towards O Fenian as he used the excuse of "consistency", however i do intend to raise the issues on that article and all Home Nation leagues to bring them into conformity with other football league articles. Though no point until you get one issue sorted first. Still dodging the points i raised though Mo ainm? Thought so. Mabuska (talk) 22:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What point would that be? Mo ainm  ~Talk  22:22, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless your just skimming past everything, my statement above your Championship one. No point repeating it when its so accessible above. Mabuska (talk) 22:24, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah it is wrong I would go with what UEFA use. Mo ainm  ~Talk  22:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * We'll see what the Football Wikiproject say on the matter on whether its wrong or not and the relevance of the UEFA club pages. Mabuska (talk) 22:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

A final solution
I added what i think is actually a far better way to signify the fact Derry City F.C. aren't based in the Republic of Ireland without the need for a flag-icon after it. Just a simple sentence at the start of the clubs section making it clear that Derry City isn't based in the RoI but NI. Not very controversial and straight to the point. Mabuska (talk) 13:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Let us know when you're finished destroying the formatting in this article Mabuska. You're a credit to britain, the queen of england has you down for one of those medals she gives to war criminals and fraudsters. Nice to see you out of the closet with the section title. Onetonycousins (talk) 13:42, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I can see what you mean about the formatting, and have fixed the table. Didn't noticed that i had knocked off the club's location, but its amended now. Though isn't it the guys in Whitehall who actually put you down for a medal with the Queen only presenting it??? Mabuska (talk) 14:15, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Flags part 2
Seeing as this is seperated issued from how to signify Derry City F.C. isn't based in the RoI i'll start this in a new section.

Mo ainm, the infobox is stating which countries the league's teams come from. In this case obviously the RoI and one from NI. Its on about countries not football associations so that means no UB however a UJ as that is the only official flag for NI. Flags as shown above appear to be the standard for football league articles in the countries section. Ligue 1 uses them for both countries as well. This article has also used a flag for the RoI since it was made into an article over 4 years ago back in 2006.

The Home Nations for some reason don't have flags shown despite the fact most other leagues do. So if the RoI is to maintain its flag going by your edits then NI should have its - otherwise Onetonycousin is correct and there should be no flags at all. Point-scoring Mo ainm?? Your reasons for its exclusion whilst maintaining the RoI's don't add up. Mabuska (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't make accusations Mabuska, your only tarnishing your own arguement, as it would be very easy to say your opposition is point scoring. Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It was a question, though sure you already did accuse of point-scoring beforehand. At least try to argue your case Mo ainm with something of substance. Ironically all this talk of point-scoring, are we in a Gaelic football or association football article here? ;-) Mabuska (talk) 22:02, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Countries in the infobox question over at WikiProject Football talk
Link here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football. Hopefully we can keep our sarcasm and throw-backs out of it and just concentrate on the actual issue and the points raised in a more professional way than we have been doing. Mabuska (talk) 22:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Well looking at the points raised by Kevin it would appear that Northern Ireland should be removed from the article altogether as the League of Ireland Premier Division is not a multi/bi-national league and this bit onlyt relates to the countries it covers. It simply has a team from another country in it. Thus no need for a flag for NI as NI it would seem is not needed so i shall remove it. I've also removed England from the Scottish Third Division for the same reason. Mabuska (talk) 23:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Situations like this are why I am opposed to the addition of flagicons, IMO they don't add anything to the article and are mostly used purely as decoration. Mo ainm  ~Talk  09:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Seeing as the article has had a flag since 2006 and most other football league articles do as well, it is a matter of consistency. Removing one flag as it doesn't sit easy with some editors whilst maintaining the use of another one in the same section is also inconsistent. But no matters there is no problems here anymore. Mabuska (talk) 14:43, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Stadia
I added a contradiction template to this section because the figures for capacities don't match. Also the article says there is little disparity in capacity but the table shows capacity varies from 2,000 to 9,600. User:Boreas74 Talk 14:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress
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County Londonderry
See Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles - "Use Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county in articles." Alekksandr (talk) 22:56, 18 January 2023 (UTC)