Talk:Leasing

Can anyone explain the intended meaning of the following sentence, under "Real estate leases?"
 * "Unlike with other forms of property, there is no depreciation component to leasing real estate"

Clearly a property that is leased could be considered an income property for which depreciation would be a major factor to the owner. Lupinelawyer 01:29, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * The distinction being made here is between typical closed-end leases for movable property, which are frequently structured as "depreciation plus rent" (where the lessee may be able to vary the cost by varying the expected depreciation over the lease term), and real-estate leases which are "rent only" (i.e., the depreciation taken by the lessor is not relevant to the lessee because the lessee is presumed not to have any influence over it provided the property is maintained in accordance with the lease). Put another way, depreciation in real-estate leases is structural, but in (e.g. and most commonly) auto leases is point of negotiation.  18.26.0.18 07:35, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Tax Deductible?
Leasing is a process by which a firm can obtain the use of a certain fixed assets for which it must pay a series of contractual, periodic, tax deductible payments.

I don't think that we can say that ALL lease payments are going to be deductible under EVERY taxation system. For example, I know that under the Australian taxation system, lease payments are only deductible where they are incurred in producing assessable income or necessarily incurred in carrying on a business for the purpose of producing assessable income (and certain other tests are met). That bit should be removed. Joaq99 (talk) 03:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

First steps
I have rewritten the Introduction and introduced a new section to define the general concepts. What remains is a little confusing so I shall return in the next day or so, and gradually rewrite the sections to clarify the details of the transactions and to broaden the scope to include different sets of laws. So view this as a work in progress that anyone else with the interest and expertise is more than welcome to join in.

David91


 * I am not sure that all of that background belongs in this article. I would also hope that you do not "broaden the scope" to such an extent that it is not intelligible to people from locales other than your own.  I believe the section on closed-end leases is currently clear and accurate as it pertains to a very common and important type of transaction in the United States; please take care in your edit not to destroy its explanatory value.  (And please note that we do not "hire" things, only people, so use of a more neutral verb would be preferred.)  121a0012 22:29, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

U.S.-centric
I am not interested in writing a page that is particular to any individual legal system. If you feel that there should be a page specific to the U.S. legal system, then you should argue the case for writing one or transfering elements from this page to separate pages specific to the U.S.. As it is, this is labelled as a non-specific page on the principles that underlie leasing. Thus, whereas America may very well lease movables, many other countries hire them and so both terms should be used (equally, the majority of common law jurisdictions employ people and not hire them, but this exchange of views between us is not supposed to be about semanitics). Equally, whether any one element is "good enough" for one country is hardly relevant to the rest of the world. If it is intended to be specific, it should be labelled as such. By failing to indicate its limitations, it becomes misleading to the rest of the world. Hence, I have written an entirely general introduction that would be useful to both common law and civil law jurisdictions. It is true that it mentions elements that should also appear in other articles. That is as it should be. To fail to contextualise and only to particularise is to give inadequate information to the general user.

However, if you feel that the remaining elements should be left untouched on this page, I am happy to concur on the condition that they are clearly marked as being specific to whichever jurisdictions &mdash; is this entirely federal law, or is it a summary of the conflict situation, or is it a clear statement of principle to be found in all state laws within the U.S.?

David91


 * It is, as with many financial matters, a mixture of both Federal and state law in the U.S. There are numerous laws, regulations, and accounting practices involved.  In general, at the consumer level (as with the example of an auto lease), disclosure and many aspects of the terms are set by a Federal law (the title of which I cannot recall at the moment), but the businesses engaged in it (retailers and financing companies) are regulated mostly by the states.  For non-consumer leasing much remains a matter of contract law, which I can't speak to.
 * I am not trying to suggest that you not edit the article. What I would like to avoid is the possibility that someone who is trying to understand leasing arrive here and be blown away by legal jargon which mostly does not even apply to the legal system they live under.  The needs of the (English-speaking) audience should be reflected in the amount of space given to practices in various places; while other jurisdictions and legal systems certainly merit mention, the meaningful content for most users should not be overly diluted by international comparisons that apply principally to non-English-speaking countries.
 * I can't speak for the Real Estate section as I didn't write most of that and many features of the housing market vary significantly in both mechanism and terminology even within a single country.
 * 121a0012 02:15, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

So. . .?
Let us move towards some form of agreement. I propose that we separate out those elements that are specific to U.S. law and create pages for them. I will redraft the conceptual material so that it is less jargon-ridden and more accessible to the lay reader, putting in links to the new country-law-specific pages. Frankly, being a resident of ASEAN, I have no idea what the law currently is in Europe so we will have to wait for some kind souls to come along from the UK and some of the civil law countries to fill in the gaps. As to the U.S. material I understand you to say that, as currently drafted, it is more than adequate for everyone domiciled in one of the states, i.e. it implicitly refers to the only relevant Federal Statute and there is sufficiently commonality in the laws of all the states to justify what has been written up. Nealry 25 years ago, I did have some passing acquaintance with the U.S. conflict system — are there any current interstate problems that should be referred to, particularly now that so many transactions may be concluded via e-mail or internet exchanges across state boundaries?

All the best

David91

Tired of waiting for an answer
Time has passed and the paged remained untouched. I have therefore completed the merge of material requested and wikified the page so that it is non-specific. I transfered the material on closed-end leasing to a new page and flagged it for wikification. -David91 20:24, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Too legal?
Needs de-lawyer-ification. Or at least something that would explain it again in more simplified terms.--213.22.136.230 22:27, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Hard to see how a legal topic can avoid being lawyerly, use legal rather than simplified terms, and remain useful. David91 02:01, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Everything that humans do can be described in legal terms, and it is good that this article does that fairly well for this topic. However, that does not mean that the topic can and should not be introduced using normal English vocabulary and in discussing those aspects of leasing that interest a normal businessperson or consumer who are looking for basic info. David91, imagine how funny an article on sports would sound if written like this article -- and how frustrated normal users would be. --Espoo 13:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Apartment or real estate rental article
I understand the above-mentioned concern that the article concentrates on the legal aspects of leasing in general. This article, although sufficiently lengthy, seems to neglect some practical aspects of leasing real estate such as apartments. An article on the legal aspects of leasing is perfectly alright. However, I've tried to look for a Wikipedia article on the practical aspects of apartment rental. So far, I have not found one. Does anyone know if there is such an article? Maybe one should be written on the practical aspects of renting and leasing apartments, real estate, etc. covering lessor/tenant relationships, security deposits, rent payments, housing rules, wear and tear or damage to apartments, evictions, etc. H Padleckas 09:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Your request sounds like a request for a page specific to the U.S. The page I have produced is entirely generic and not specific to any one country. Try putting in a request for a specific page. Since I am not an American, I cannot volunteer to write it for you but you may find a passing American with the expertise to write it. David91 10:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply. H Padleckas 10:07, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Rental_agreement and Leasehold_estate are what you're looking for, Padleckas, and no, David91, this is not a U.S. issue. --Espoo 08:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

From the end of October, throughout November, and early December, I've expanded the Apartment article considerably describing apartments themselves, but I have not added a section on "Apartment rental" (or Apartment renting, leasing, leases, whatever). The apartment article is still not very long and I think it could benefit from an "Apartment rental" section on the practical aspects mentioned above. Alternatively, a separate article can be written on either on Apartment rental or more broadly on Real estate rental which covers more specific practical aspects of renting apartments and/or other real estate such as commercial or business suites, stores (in malls), etc. Maybe some day (one of these years ??), I may muster up the ambition to include an "Apartment rental" section at the end of the Apartment article. In the meantime, if anyone else wants to take a crack at writing an "Apartment rental" section in Apartment, go ahead. H Padleckas 11:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I've previously expanded the Real estate contract article covering the purchase/sale of real estate, trying to concentrate on practical as well as legal aspects. Although the article is written generically, I admit my experience on this subject is based on what happens in the United States. If somebody (like David91) wants to review Real estate contract article from an international, legal, or any other point of view, go ahead. H Padleckas 11:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

There is a page with the strange name housing tenure that is almost as bad a case of legalese and therefore unusable for normal users as this one. --Espoo 13:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * See my comments below under "renting" section on this Talk page. Also, the Leasehold estate article seems to smack of legal theory to me.  Non-lawyers don't use that term in the USA.  H Padleckas 03:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Leasing in international law
I agree that it might be relevant to make a reference from a municipal law page to an international law page. Unfortunately, the page referred to is not a law page. An international law page would consider the Public International Law maxim of pacta sunt servanda within the context of a lease between sovereign nations. It would start by considering the municipal issue of leasing a piece of land in a host state for the purposes of establishing an embassy and then move up to leasing for the purposes of, say, a military base, to the question both historically and contemporaneously, of whether one state may lease a piece of territory from another, e.g. Hong Kong, Gibraltar, etc. so please, let us not confuse a historical page with an internatioal law page. David91 13:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Lease Banker
I am new to the industry and find this page very insightful. I commend everyone involved. I think having a seperate page one for accounting and one for legal. This would help those who would choose to get a more in-depth education.

renting
This article should explain whether "renting" is a synonym, and the disambiguation page renting needs mention of leasing of business premises, not just for residential purposes (called "housing tenure" there), and it needs a "real" link to leasing, not just under "See also". --Espoo 13:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * On Aug. 4, 2006, I've expanded the both the Renting and Rental agreement articles a bit, particularly in the area of Real estate renting, and mentioning the possibility of renting business space too. Espoo has seen this expanded version later about Aug. 26.  Although, if I would have written that section on Housing/Real estate Rental in Rental agreement originally, I would have written it in a different style, that section is really not bad.  I think a link from the Apartment article to these articles may be adequate for the topic of Apartment renting, at least for now.  Espoo, do you want to fix these up any further?  Go ahead and give it a try, if you want to.  H Padleckas 02:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Other aspects of leasing are dealt with as part of the conveyancing process involving leasehold estates.

The article itself says farther down that conveyance refers to ownership, not leasing, which is what leasehold estate is about. --Espoo 10:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)