Talk:Lecithin/Archive 1

Egg Allergy
My son has an egg allergy and drank a malt that had lecithin as a component of the malted. He vomited about 10 minutes later and stated that he could taste egg in the malt initially (he can usually tell if a product has any egg, even if it's in minute amounts) and that his stomach had been hurting after drinking it. He is 5 and he liked the taste of the malt, so he drank the whole thing and never said anything to us. I could not figure out what caused this until I ran across this article. It sounds as if the lecithin must have been egg based. A similar (but worse) reaction occurred with albumin (also not marked as egg containing on the ingredient list). The article could use an allergy section mentioning the likelihood of egg being in the product. I will return to add that information if time allows. --206.72.66.29 (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Todd

Lecitin in health
I have edited some of the content, some health related subjects were wrong, lecitin (PC) DOES inprove cholesterol and TG in mamals (mice), it is also indicated for fat pulmonary embolism, but I am too tired to research the references just now. There are also some studies aiminga at using Lecithin as a injection to obtain fat reduction in aesthetic clinics, but it is not yet proven to be harmless (the basic underlying alteration seems to be fat tissue necrosis). RogerioLuz (talk) 07:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Phosphatidylcholine (PC) needs its own page.
Phosphatidylcholine has its own page. Unfree (talk) 08:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

What Claims Do Lecithin Supplement Suppliers Make About Lecithin's Functions?
This section really does not belong in an encyclopedia, at least not in its present form, which is more like a debate article or something. Moreover, it has its own section of references separate from the rest of the article.

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Is lecithin ever made from grains (wheat, barley, etc) or is it only made from egg yolks or soy beans?
 * I believe lecithin is extracted from egg yolks or soy beans because these tissues are relatively concentrated sources of lethicin. I suspect that it is present in other tissues but is not considered commercially practical to purify it from these tissues. ike9898 14:04, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

''As you stated, the main sources of lecithin are egg yolks, soy beans and sunflower seeds. Indeed, this is due to the relatively high lecithin content (crude soy oil ans sunflower oil contain approx 2% lecithin). Soy as well as sunflowers are grown mainly for their high oil content. Grains are grown for other purposes, as they do not contain large amounts of oil. Evenmore, the oil from grains contains only small amounts of lecithin. This makes it an economically unattractive source of lecithins.Robbeltman 19:19, 6 November 2005 (UTC)''

Can lecithin make you thinner?

''Lecithins have a chemical structure which is very similar to fats (triglycerides), and have a energetic value very close to fats. It will not make you thinner.Robbeltman 19:19, 6 November 2005 (UTC)''


 * I think that's true if you eat lecithin with a spoon; but the lecithin may affect in other ways the metabolism. I'm removing that paragraph from the article.

GeoAtreides 07:32, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

What are the true effects of this on skin?

"Virtually" non-toxic
What is meant by *virtually* non-toxic to humans?

Lecithin taken at the end of a night (or day) of drinking will ease many hangover symptoms

I believe any fat would ease hangover symptoms. Alcohol goes directly across the cell membrane(by diffusion?) and can eventually destroy the cell. I bet fat like molecules have a role in this. Anyone with some biochemistry skills around? --207.216.251.85 00:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Soya Lecitithin tablets
I saw a bottle of Soya Lecithin pills at the supermarket the other day. Seems relevant to the article. If someone could snap a picture it'd be useful. Scott Ritchie 20:55, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Lecithin and phosphatidylcholine
The article states that Lecithin is a synonym for phosphatidylcholine, while this may be true in biochemistry references, phosphatidylcholine is only the major component of commercial lecithin, which also containd phosphatidylinosotol, phosphatidylserine, linoeic acid, as well as other components

The attached picture appears to show the molecule as being C44H84NO8P or 1,2-oleoylphosphatidylcholine (Dioleoyl lecithin). The is _a_ phosphatidylcholine molecule, altough is the base phosphatidylcholine not C12H24NO7P ? I understand that phosphatidylcholine can attach to two fatty acids, which I assume creates distinct molecules which are all classified as phosphatidylcholines. If somebody could please clarify this subject.

[Regarding paragraph above: actually one can see that there is a cis double bond on one of the acyl chains and not on the other, so in fact is is not DOPC but SOPC since a saturated oleoyl is a stearoyl (1-Stearoyl-2-Oleoyl-sn-Glycero-3-Phosphocholine).] http://www.avantilipids.com/Phosphatidylcholine.asp

sharia
Why is lecithin restricted under sharia? Could someone add the reason to the article?

Lecithin itself (as commercially sourced from plants and eggs) is not restricted in Sharia, however the enzymatic hydrolysis and ethanol fractionation require to be properly certified and monitored by halal prodution guidelines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.3.114 (talk) 14:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Is the term jalalah a typo? I can't find any definition of this term elsewhere. Section should probably limit itself to saying that lecithin may or may not be considered halal according to its source and method of extraction.

What business has this religious crap in a biochemical article? This superstitious nonsense is ridiculing Wikipedia and should not be tolerated in a scientific article or else it will damage the reputation of Wikipedia as a source of serious scientific knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.24.168.220 (talk) 18:27, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Removed Essay-Like Intercalation
I removed all of the out of place content in the middle of the article. I also removed the tags, which I assumed were in reference to the inserted content. The article looks much better now. If you feel this edit was to drastic please revert. JohnJohn 19:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism
Parts of the text seem to come from here: http://www.1001herbs.com/lecithin/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.126.186.36 (talk) 07:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

A should statement???
The article includes this sentence:

"There is no general agreement among vegetarians concerning egg-derived lecithin, but vegans especially should try to avoid consuming it."

A neutral informational statement that some lecithins are derived from eggs, and are thus outside what the strictest vegetarians eat, might be appropriate.

A statement telling any group of people what they should do is completely inappropriate for an encyclopedia article.Daqu 20:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

spattering
"In margarines, especially those containing high levels of fat (>75%), lecithin is added as an 'anti-spattering' agent: it helps in suppressing spattering during shallow frying."

Who fries with margarine? This is one of those weird ideas that makes me think it's a cheap bulking agent. industry jargon


 * I avoid margarine, but most people, I assume, don't. Toss a pat of it in a hot frying pan, and of course it would be nice if it didn't spatter too much. What's "weird" about that? Lecithin certainly can't be considered a "bulking agent," since it's high in calories, and probably more expensive than the oils it's added to. Unfree (talk) 09:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Kosher status
Lecithin may or may not be kosher, depending on what it is derived from and how. See.

Also, regardless of other concerns, soy-derived lecithin would certainly not be kosher for Passover. It is kitniyos.

71.130.168.34 05:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)rivka


 * I believe that's a matter of controversy, Rivka. Kitniyos foods have been marketed as kosher for Passover, and the definitions of both vary among strains of Judaism. Unfree (talk) 09:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * According the orthodox tradition, Ashkenazic Jews consider beans to be non-Kosher for Passover, while Sephardic Jews regard beans as Kosher for Passover. summguy1 (talk) 15:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Questions: 1) "http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:4jE5ekma5DEJ:www.ok.org/Content.asp?ID=171+kosher+lecithin&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us] " will not load for me. 2) "it is considered pareve," is an ambiguous referent:  does "it" refer to a) "lecithin", b) "soy lecithin", or c) "egg lecithin"? 3) Further complicating "it is considered pareve", is the very discussion above, citing the controversy.

I am editing this passage to reflect my questions. SalineBrain (talk) 03:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually it has been approved as kosher for Passover for those who refrain of Kitniyos as well, although there are some who still refrain from using it on Passover. See here: Lecithin on Passover (Hebrew, Tzohar Rabbi's website) פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 23:11, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Superstitious beliefs should have no place in a scientific article. Or are we from now on going to have ridiculous comments to any chemical substance by every obscure religious sect that existed at some time in history? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.24.168.220 (talk) 18:32, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Why the biochemistry bias?
I've heard that lecithin is an important industrial commodity used in making plastics and paints. Is nobody able to provide any information about common, commercial-grade lecithin and its uses? Also, I'd like to see which foods are good sources of lecithins and the distinctions among them. Unfree (talk) 08:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I was wrong. I did some research and had typed it in, when suddenly it all got lost. My palm accidentally touched my laptop's touchpad, and there's no telling what happened. Darn! Unfree (talk) 09:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

sir, I use it in Leather softening formulations. This woks out excellent. But as this is used along with water proper Preservatives should be added. On long storing - a green foul smelling develops. This effect can be minimised by keeping in under the sun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.87.213 (talk) 15:43, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

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Dietary Sources of Lecithin
There needs to be a discussion about the dietary/food sources of lecithin. Within this wiki, there are references to egg and soy but not in specific food forms (ie: raw vs. fried egg; soy been vs. tofu). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.209.167.220 (talk) 03:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Still lost.
A recipe I plan on executing demands "lecithin" as an ingredient, and I was only vaguely aware of it being one of the obscure ingredients listed on candy bars and had no idea what it looked like, where to get it, or what it even was. After reading this article I still don't (well, I know what a molecule of it looks like but besides that). Maybe a picture of a lecithin product marketed for culinary use, or a mention of common brands under which it's sold? (inb4 hurp durp wikipedia is not a photo album, wikipedia is not a venue for free advertising, wikipedia should not contain any information that's even remotely useful) Wormwoodpoppies (talk) 19:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Removed Offensive Matter
Someone had edited this to readL "There is no general agreement among vegetarians concerning egg-derived lecithin; since it is animal-derived, Jains, Vegetarian Hindus like Brahmins and vegans choose not to consume it, as they have little regard for their own health, saving said regard for insentient moving meat."

The last two clauses were offensive, so I deleted them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErikBFlom (talk • contribs) 12:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Melting point, solubility, decomposition temperature
I miss these information here. "low solubility" doesn't help me.--Clocktwibright (talk) 22:42, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Redundant info
What's the difference between 'fish eggs' and 'fish roe' (or just plain 'roe') as used in the opening section listing items with a demonstrated presence of lecithin?

76.14.123.243 (talk) 06:16, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Claimed health benefits?
To somebody who's looking on improving this article, I would suggest adding more content about its supposed health benefits. Its been marketed as a nutraceutical for quite some time now. Lighthead  þ 01:59, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I read an article today saying that bacteria in the intestines may turn lecithin into what are called TMAOs, or trimethylamine-N-oxide, which in turn will turn into plaque, clogging arteries. Obviously, this may bring a lot of controversy to the edited article. Here's the link. Demf 13:06, 25 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.64.0.254 (talk)
 * Thanks for your suggestion, 199.64.0.254. We do not add health information to Wikipedia based on primary studies.   This violates not only wikipedia's foundational policy on sourcing content (see WP:PSTS) but also the guidelines that have been created for sourcing health content, which are more rigorous (see WP:MEDRS).  Jytdog (talk) 23:54, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Jytdog, take a look at the L-carnitine and TMAO pages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-carnitine#Atherosclerosis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylamine_N-oxide#Health_issues MartinLevac (talk) 04:39, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for calling my attention to those sections of those articles. Neither of them is sourced nor written according to WP:MEDRS but even more importantly not according to WP:PSTS.  Amazing how bad content can get spread around wikipedia. Jytdog (talk) 05:35, 27 April 2013 (UTC)


 * There is a passage that makes what I would call implied health claims. "Research studies show soy-derived lecithin has significant effects on lowering serum cholesterol and triglycerides, while increasing HDL ("good cholesterol") levels in the blood of rats."  I'm not sure what you mean by 'primary studies' but the articles cited appear to be that.  Moreover, I would love to find out if those articles cited were funded by the industry...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Star-lists (talk • contribs) 21:16, 28 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I corrected that. The sources seem to all be somewhat problematic:
 * Decreased serum... Veterinary Research Communications, 1997 (Japanese team of researchers participating in paid study group) This research is repeated again and again from different sources giving the feeling that its widely accepted... please read on.
 * research from Sao Paulo University primary source - and seems not too reliable... The study itself calls for further research, gives no theory into reasons for reduction, nothing about the rest of the diet, and was done with 30 patients only, and not with healthy people.
 * a study of the studies with the result that, quote: most of these were poorly designed. The combined results of the four

appropriately controlled trials suggest that dietary lecithin does not lower serum cholesterol in man.!!! !!!
 * Neutraceutical and Specialty Lipids and their Co-Products not a serious medical publication, repeating the other stuff...
 * פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 23:03, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

sourced and corrected. ok now?
I added reliable sources and corrected unreliable text. Is it ok now. Can the banner be removed? פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 22:42, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Soy lecithin - Health concerns
Soybean lecithin comes from sludge left after crude soy oil goes through a "degumming" process. It is a waste product containing solvents and pesticides and has a consistency ranging from a gummy fluid to a plastic solid. Before being bleached to a more appealing light yellow, the color of lecithin ranges from a dirty tan to reddish brown. The hexane extraction process commonly used in soybean oil manufacture today yields less lecithin than the older ethanol-benzol process, but produces a more marketable lecithin with better color, reduced odor and less bitter flavor.

Today soy lecithin is ubiquitous in the processed food supply. It is most commonly used as an emulsifier to keep water and fats from separating in foods such as margarine, peanut butter, chocolate candies, ice cream, coffee creamers and infant formulas. It also helps prevent product spoilage making it a preservative and extending shelf life in the marketplace.

The majority of soy sources in the world are now genetically modified (GM). Researchers have clearly identified GM foods as a threat to the environment, pollution of soils and a long-term threat to human health with links to of the world with unnatural genetic material that may have unknown long-term consequences with links to decreased fertility, immunological alterations in the gut and the exacerbation and creation of allergies.

Genetically engineered soy contains high concentrations of plant toxicants. The presence of high levels of toxicants in the GM soy represent thousands of plant biochemicals many of which have been shown to have toxic effects.

The manufacture of soy lecithin is also typically confined to unfermented sources because it is quicker and cheaper to make. Unfermented soy products are rich in enzyme inhibitors. Enzymes such as amylase lipase and protease are secreted into the digestive tract to help break down food and free nutrients for assimilation into the body. The high content of enzyme inhibitors in unfermented soybeans interferes with this process and makes carbohydrates and proteins from soybeans impossible to completely digest.

Unfermented soy has been linked to digestive distress, immune system breakdown, PMS, endometriosis, reproductive problems for men and women, allergies, ADD and ADHD, higher risk of heart disease and cancer, malnutrition, and loss of libido.

http://preventdisease.com/news/09/073009_soy_lecithin.shtml

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Correlation between Cardiovascular disease and choline?
"However, a growing body of evidence indicates the phosphatidylcholine in lecithin is converted by gut bacteria into trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO), which is absorbed by the gut and may with time contribute to atherosclerosis and heart attacks." is premature and should be removed.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Choline#Correlation_between_Cardiovascular_disease_and_choline?

and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Carnitine#Deletion_of_Nature_l-carnitine_study

Drsruli (talk) 01:17, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Also:

Free Choline, but Not Phosphatidylcholine, Elevates Circulating Trimethylamine-N-oxide and This Response Is Modified by the Gut Microbiota Composition in Healthy Men

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7258772/

Drsruli (talk) 08:13, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33872583/ - Dietary Choline Supplements, but Not Eggs, Raise Fasting TMAO Levels in Participants with Normal Renal Function: A Randomized Clinical Trial

Participant's plasma TMAO levels increased significantly in all three intervention arms containing choline bitartrate (all P<0.0001), but daily ingestion of four large eggs (P=0.28) or phosphatidylcholine supplements (P=0.27) failed to increase plasma TMAO levels. Platelet reactivity also significantly increased in the three intervention arms containing choline bitartrate (all P<0.01), but not with eggs (P=0.10) or phosphatidylcholine supplements (P=0.79).

Drsruli (talk) 18:23, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

It seems like a better study would just to follow a group taking lecithin and one group that is not, and report on the results......as far as I can tell, no report has come out saying individuals who take lecithin are more likely to have a heart attack..... also, all the studies are from 2013; it seems like there has been no progress on the research made since then......maybe it should be removed. RomanGrandpa (talk) 18:46, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Meanwhile, to summarize, we have studies demonstrating that lecithin does not increase serum TMAO, and also studies showing that increased TMAO is not actually a greater risk. (Or at least, not causative.)

Drsruli (talk) 06:14, 2 March 2022 (UTC)