Talk:Lee Archer (pilot)

Ace Claims
The sections of the article that refer to Archer's kill claims require heavy editing. The bulk of the claims are cited using either forum posts (WP:SPS) or were edited in by the author of the original research on which the claims are based. (WP:SELFCITE) The latter citations make up a substantial portion of the support for these claims, which are themselves based on a secondary source. The primary sources that this research is based on should be cited directly, with the claims made in the secondary source then used to synthesize the meaning of this data, so as to satisfy the conflict of interest present due to the author-made edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.214.49 (talk) 22:31, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

It's been several years and no progress has been made on satisfying the issues presented by the (WP:SPS) and (WP:SELFCITE) which call into question the legitimacy of the portions of the article that dispute Archer's record. Therefore, I'll be striking them from the article.Rowd149 (talk) 13:39, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Per https://www.afcent.af.mil/News/Article/220718/original-tuskegee-ace-passes-away/, which describes the circumstances surrounding Archer's 5th kill and its controversy in detail. The original research that is cited to support the claim that Archer never reached ace status should not be considered legitimate and used in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14A:600:1780:A5C1:F37F:73BD:C3B4 (talk) 02:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Typo?
The article says Archer "is officially credited with five enemy fighter aircraft shot down."

However the source says, "according to the World War II records of the 332d Fighter Group and its squadrons, which were very carefully kept by members of the group, Lee Archer claimed a total of four aerial victories during World War II, and received credit for every claim.9"

It seems like someone accidentally typed five instead of four. 24.12.6.25 (talk) 17:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

History Channel Interview
During an interview for the History Channel show Dogfights, in their Tuskegee Airmen episode, he specifically says he made ace while serving as a wingman. I'll have to watch the episode again to be sure of when and where, but I know he says he made ace. Also, on the side of his plane at the Fantasy of Flight Museum, Lakeland, Florida, there are 5 swastikas. Don't suppose anyone could help me sort this out, could they?

Hey, I re-watched the episode, and it was 12 October, 1944, over Hungary... Lake Balaton, or something to that effect... no captions, can't tell the spelling... hope someone can help me sort this out... Magus732 (talk) 15:55, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Some other sources:
 * St. Louis Post-Dispatch, July 2, 2001, Madison County Post, p. 6. Steve Cowell's Labor of Love Is Testament to Tuskegee Airmen. Robert Goodrich. "Lee Archer was credited with shooting down 4 1/2 enemy aircraft in the war. Five would have made him an "ace." Modern research showed it should have been five. Archer is now listed as the only Tuskegee ace."
 * New York Beacon, August 29, 2001, p. 34. Lee Archer's Flame Grows Ever Brighter. "Lee Archer, for one, flew 169 missions, shot down six German fighters including three on a single mission, and fought the military bureaucracy for forty years to be designated as "ace.""
 * USA Today, June 7, 2004, p. 5A. France Presents Its Highest Award to Veterans of WWII. William M. Welch. "Archer was a fighter ace with five certified kills of enemy planes.
 * and see this long section from Tuskegee's Heroes on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=Ne5nMaxDYbcC&pg=PA66&ei=emuSSbwilNSVBKKXiLMK
 * I'll leave it to you to reword the text though. -- JHunterJ (talk) 06:15, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Text/edit on Tuskegee Airmen mythology
I am moving the following here to preserve it, although it is a detraction from the story of Lee Archer, it has some value in exploring the myth of their escort duties:

During an era when the U.S. armed forces were strictly racially segregated and its military leaders were reluctant to give African-American pilots combat responsibilities, the four squadrons of the Tuskegee combat wing, collectively known as the Tuskegee Airmen, proved their skills and courage by safely escorting U.S. bombers to and from their targets, with a bomber loss rate approximately half that of other fighter escort units.

The 332nd Wing "lost" approximately 25 bombers during their World War II escort missions, many to ground flak weapons fire for which there was no defense by escort fighters. Post-war research attributed the 332nd's lower bomber loss rate to the mission objectives assigned by high-level air force staff to the various escort groups in the theatre—and thus to the orders given to the unit commanders on what procedures the escort fighters were to follow in combat. In this regard the 332nd pilots were shown to be neither superior nor inferior to their non-black counterparts in other escort groups. The 332nd would ironically be later criticized in one air force report for its pilots having a lower kill rate of enemy aircraft (compared to white pilots), which again reflected the fact that 332nd pilots were following their orders of staying with their bomber groups at all costs in order to protect them. REF: Haulman, Dr. Daniel L. "Nine Myths About the Tuskegee", Organizational Histories Branch, U.S. Air Force Historical Research Agency, U.S.A.F., October 21, 2011. Retrieved from the Tuskegee.edu website, February 23, 2012. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 22:47, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Bzuk, I've added the cite above for clarity. It appears I was enthusiastically carried away, but its probably good enough to fit into the Tuskegee Airman article which already has similar text. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 23:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

The dilemma faced in evaluating the role of the Tuskegee Airmen can be sumarized as: The other 8th Air Force escort fighters were "tied" to the bombers until late 1943, being released by orders from Lt. Gen. Jimmy Doolittle, commander of the 8th Air Force, to go "hunting". The 8th Air Force high command had determined that shooting down the intercepting German fighters would be more effective in protecting the bombers, as the enemy would be reduced significantly in numbers before reaching the bomber streams. The fighter missions continued to be adapted to attacking the Luftwaffe, even to the extent of hitting airfields as Luftwaffe flights were taking off (and in the case of the Me 262s and Me 163s, timing their strikes to shoot down the jet and rocket fighters when they were returning to their bases and were highly vulnerable).

The U.S. bomber crews felt that close escort was more effective and resented that their fighter escort's mission had been changed to destroying the Luftwaffe rather than staying close to the bombers. When the Tuskegee Airmen took on the role of bomber escort, their task was more of a closer escort mission, although the Red Tails also did their share of going after the enemy defenders. The fact that bomber crews felt that they were in jeopardy when they observed their fighter escort leaving, to strike out against the defenders, was a point of contention throughout the war, note the similar circumstances of bomber-escort tactics when the Luftwaffe bombers attacked Britain in 1940, and the B-29 raids over Japan.

The Red Tails gained the respect and gratitude of bomber crews because their mission was specifically to protect the bombers, as both the 8th Air Force and 9th Air Force struggled with how to most effectively counter German fighter opposition to the Allied daylight bombing campaign over Europe. When the Tuskegee Airmen began their fighter escort missions, the Luftwaffe had already been significantly reduced so that a close escort mission, which was the most difficult to achieve as the disparity between the speeds required to stay with the bombers and the need to reach the interceptors roaring in at high speed from the advantage of altitude and orientation, was a formidable hurdle to overcome, yet achievable. Their escort missions in 1944–1945 did lead to lower losses amongst the bombers, although as later postwar research has shown, there was no "magic" ability to bring them all home safely, as up to 25 bombers were shot down while under the Red Tail's protection. Many of the losses could be attributed to flak, accidents or the inevitable mechanical failures, however, the Red Tails did have an enviable record. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 23:46, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The 332nd Fighter Group did not serve with Lt Gen Doolittle's Eighth Air Force in England. They served in the Mediterranean Theatre, first with Twelfth Air Force and then, as bomber escorts, with Maj Gen Nathan F Twining's Fifteenth Air Force based at Foggia, Italy. (Doolittle had commanded the Fifteenth for only a matter of weeks before, in December 1943, Eisenhower and Arnold ordered him to replace Ira C Eaker at Eighth Air Force, Eaker having somewhat lost Arnold's confidence due to extremely heavy bomber losses.) By July 1944 the Fifteenth had four Mustang and three Lightning escort groups. They were quite thinly stretched as there were more than 20 bomb groups to look after.
 * At this time -- despite the success of Doolittle's 'free-roaming' order to the Eighth's escort groups from January 1944 -- greater stress was placed again on the importance of close escort. This was due to the first encounter with Me163 rocket fighters on 28 July during an 8AF raid on Leuna-Merseburg. RAF reconnaissance Mosquitos had meanwhile begun to meet Me262 jets. The USAAF feared that these very fast fighters would soon appear in numbers, and therefore close escort assumed greater importance. First, a close escort had more time to react to the incoming threat; and second, the presence of a close escort meant that jet and rocket pilots could not decelerate to engage the bombers without becoming immediately vulnerable to attack, so their firing time -- the interval between coming into range and breaking away to avoid collision with the target -- was only about a second and they were less likely to score fatal hits. Maj Gen Kepner of VIII Fighter Command gave close-escort orders accordingly (Alfred Price, Battle Over the Reich, Ian Allan, Shepperton, 1973, ISBN 0 7110 0481 1, p.147), and it is likely that Fifteenth Air Force took similar precautions, though in reality the rocket fighters never amounted to much and the jets did not appear in numbers until March 1945 -- when the 332nd met them over Berlin.
 * Reputedly, though I don't know how factual the reputation really is, the 332nd specialised in close escort. Jerry Scutts, in Mustang Aces of the Ninth & Fifteenth Air Forces & the RAF, Osprey, London, 1995, ISBN 1 85532 583 7, p.71, suggests that this was a personal order from Col Davis: 'Benjamin Davis... drilled it into his pilots that their job was to protect the bombers, and not to go off chasing after Messerschmitts and glory. "Too often the fighters left the bombers to go chasing enemy fighters and their personal glory. Davis said that 'Your job is to keep enemy fighters away from the bombers. Your job is not to shoot down enemy fighters and become an ace,' " remembered Woodrow Crockett, a long-serving pilot with the unit. Such was the awe in which Ben Davis was held, many of his high-spirited young pilots would not have dreamed of disobeying his dictat [sic]! "I never considered wandering off," recalled Lee Archer, "and I'm a pretty independent person!" '
 * This has the smack of mythology about it and one would need to know more about the way Fifteenth Air Force was run to determine whether a fighter group commander could really make policy like that or whether the higher command preferred to keep the 332nd in the close-escort role. Note that there were three P-38 Lightning groups available, whose twin-engined fighters were not very suitable for close escort, and that the 332nd was the newest and least experienced of the four Mustang groups (two of which, the famed 31st and the 52nd, were veterans who'd started out on Spitfires and considered the Mustang a bit of a comedown except in terms of range). It is also conceivable that the higher command wished to limit the 332nd's activities for regrettable reasons of prejudice. Scutts, p.70, notes: 'The Group was the last in Fifteenth Air Force to receive Mustangs, and was assigned fewer missions than its rivals, thus encountering fewer enemy aircraft. Many claims by Negro [sic] pilots were disallowed or downgraded, and the evidence seems to show that high-scoring pilots from the unit were quickly sent home before they could become aces, with the attendant (unwelcome) publicity.'
 * It is not the case that any of the 27 bombers lost under the 332nd's protection, as listed by Dr Daniel L Haulman, were downed by flak. Obviously losses to flak could not be a 'fail' on the part of the fighter escort, so Haulman discounted those. His researches specifically identified 27 bombers lost to enemy fighter attack, in contrast to the average 46 bombers lost by each of the other Mustang groups, the 31st, the 52nd and the 325th 'Checkertail Clan', plus the three Lightning groups. This may indicate the excellence of the 332nd's pilots, and/or it may indicate their lower mission rate and their specialist close-escort assignment. It is of course worth recalling that, on most of the 332nd's escort missions, for months at a time, enemy fighters never put in an appearance at all. https://www.redtail.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/A-Short-History-of-the-Tuskegee-Airmen.pdf Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:48, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

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