Talk:Lee Myung-bak/Archive 1

tense shift
Mr. Lee is the current president. Everything involving the investigation and especially referring to Mr. Roh as current president should be shifted. I started to go through and change some things to the past tense, but i'm a little confused. Do these parties still assert these things? If so it is wrong to change them to the past tense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DaronDierkes (talk • contribs) 08:04, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Time to declare this page neutral
I think the page has come a long way in the last couple of days and should be removed from the NPOV watch list. The tone has been changed to neutral, in my opinion and most unrefferenced or inapropriate remarks were removed. Anyone agree/disagree... reasons?Mikeonatrike (talk) 04:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I take this back! Words like 'supposedly' impose guilt... also, words like 'alleged' are not to be used if anyone want's this article to be neutral... If these words continue to be used, maybe this article should be removed or made a stub!Mikeonatrike (talk) 21:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

birthplace
Lee Myung Bak was born in Japan (not in Korea) and he does not have a Japanese name. --DandanxD 12:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

he has a japanese name: tsukiyama akihiro —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.79.120.15 (talk) 22:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Incidents of corruption and illegalities
Why was this erased from the page? The BBK incident is a hot issue in Korea right now and I believe it should be included —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.148.205.37 (talk) 03:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Lee Myun-bak is Zainichi, or not?
I think Lee Myung-bak is Zainichi. He was born in Osaka, Japan. the Korean people who live or lived are called as Zainichi. and he had the Japanese name 月山明博. that's why he should be categorized as Zainichi people. --Yuan.C.Lee 12:03, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course not, I get where you are from even though your nickname could lead people to misunderstand. You should know that when Korea were out of the rule of Japan. Until 15th of Augutst 1945, not only did Koreans living in Japan have Japanese name, but also every korean in Korea have Japanese name by the unjust force of the Japanese Government. Beside, Mr Lee left Japan for good at three years old with his family. He doesn't need to carry any identification to prove foreigner living in Japan like Jainichi.--Appletrees 14:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Appletrees told "Don't try to insult him". what do you mean?

Zainichi is the NPOV word. Because it tells just his birth place or his residence. Don't you think you should not push your ego to us? your birth place would be Korea. if you visited USA, you'd introduce yourself as a Korean. that's the same. Korean is a Korean. Zainichi is a Zainichi, wherever you go. --Yuan.C.Lee 15:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That is just the Japanese point of view. Korean have heard and known from media in Korea and Japan that "Jainichi" doesn't pure meanings. Of course, the literal meaning of Jainichi refers to the permanent residents among foreigners in Japan who keep their own nationality. However, the nuance of Jainichi sounds a little unpleasant for Korean whether living in Japan or not. Some Jainichi authors have published books regarding their experience lving in Japan. They said living as a Korean-Japanese is a gross discrimination and feared to uncover their real identity in the Japanese society.


 * I have a friend who was born and raised in Japan until 12 years old due to his father's business, he did never refer himself as a Jainichi Also nobody called him "Jaeilgyopo" (Korean-Japanese) except when a trouble between him and a schoolmate happened. As you guess, Jailgyopo was not used in a good way against him.


 * It is weird that Japanese wikipedians try to label him as a Jainichi or former Jainichi. Why? What intention do you have in mind? It is highly unlikely for Japanese to proud that the big Korean figure like Mr. Lee is once related to Japan. Mr. Lee has been living in Korea for over 60 years and only lived in Japan for 3 years!


 * I think your attack on me with the comment, "pushing my ego" is very absurd and offensive. Less of your nonsense. --Appletrees 00:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Appletrees why is calling someone Zainichi an insult? are you saying that it is degrading to be connected with Japan? is there something wrong with being born in Japan? Please dont insult all Zainichi with your comments, Im sure many people, including myself find them highly offensive.Sennen goroshi 15:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Read my answer to Yuan.C.Lee first. If you call Chinese born and once lived in Korea for just few years as "hwagyo" (Chinese-Korean), that label could be an insult for him/her. One of you mentioned Korean-American to compare with the case on Mr. Lee, but the categorization is not quite fit to this matter. Because North America select the territorial principal, if people are born there, naturally get a citizenship unlike Korea, China, Japan. But if Korean-Americans living in Korea for their business give up their citizenship or green card, they would not be called as neither Korean-American anymore nor former Korean-American. They are just Korean, not Jaemigyopo like Jainichi. So read my comments throughly. I don't intend to insult any Jainichi as you imagned. --Appletrees 00:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In terms of Jainichi, Korean students in Japan can be included in it. From 1910 to 1945, could only a few of rich and intelligent Koreans get a permission to study aboard such as US, Russia, China, or Japan. The intellects have led the society of Korea before and after 1945 with their learnings and make a boast of the experience. But people who once were students in Japan never been titled as Jainichi. Besides, except the fortunate people, most of Korean in Japan at times were originally poor in Korea and conscripted for force labor by the Japanese Government. Some people against Mr. Lee use the information of his birth place as an attack. Because there are suspicion of whether his parents were Chinilpa (the pro-Japanese group) at times or not. There are two critical weakness not to be elected for the president of Korea. One is Chinilpa before 1945 and their descendants and the other is Communists at Korean war and their families. The truth regarding the matter is unknown and I am rooting for an opponent of Mr. Lee, but but the labeling seems way too much for him.--Appletrees 00:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The word "Zainichi (Korean)" usually means the people who keep living in Japan for many years after the WW2. Maybe, the word is useful to distinguish Koreans in Korea from Koreans in Japan after the war. Before the war, Koreans both in Japan and Korea are Japanese, and they were just called Chosenjin, not zainichi. I think the people who left Japan soon after the end of war are not called Zainichi.--Mochi 16:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your comment in some way, but Chosenjin is very offensive slur to Korean like Jokkbali to Japan. The instance seems less persuasive to me.--Appletrees 00:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * "Chosenjin" is not an offensive word whatever South Korean people feel like. Chosen is the pronouciation of Joseon in Japanese, and "jin" is people. During the era of Joseon Kingdom (except Korean Empire), Japanese occupation era, and North Korea today, the people are called Chosenjin in Japanese due to its country name. Still, Zainichi North Korean people call themselves "Chosenjin". We should not talk about the usage of the word "Chosenjin" here.--Mochi 03:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In the same viewpoint, Ilbonnom can be not a slur against Japanese, "ilbon" is refering Japan and "nom" is simply refering to man in Korean. Under the rule of Japan, they were not called as Japanese from the outside world at times. Do you ever hear that Vitaminsee were once refered as "French". I guessed not. They were call Vietaminse under the rule of France. Anyhow, Chosenjin provokes Korean to feel very offensive at least for South Korean. Moreover, Chililpa is also just indicating "pro-Japan party. But every words have several meaning inside words. --Appletrees 03:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Appletrees's argument upsets me and couldn't just let it be. "Nom" in Korean and "Jin" in Japanese are totally different, first of all.  "Nom" usuually used to call someone lower rank of yours, but "Jin" just means a person.  It sure sounds bad to call a Korean "Josenjin" because Japanese people used the term during the dark era.  But it mearly means "Joseon-Person" just like "Kankoku-Jin" means "Korean."  Please don't spread biased information on Wikipedia.


 * No, I didn't spread the biased information as you assrert. South Korea is not a class society like Joseon period. Nom can be used to people and friend like a "chad". Besides, the discussion past 3 months ago, but the most upsetting thing for you is not obviously false labeling like Lee Myung-bak as a Zainichi. Just let it go and look around yourself. You seem to spread the very biased information to other articles already. I clearly see that now.--Appletrees (talk) 15:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I searched to know who Lee is, and a lot of people already made comments about other biased infomation.

I looked through a sentence by sentence on both main article and this discussion and found a small false information and made a comment. Now you see what? I'm making biased infomation on other articles? Of course you can use Nom to friends, but that's pretty much it. Would you call a stranger walking down a street Nom in good will? Would you call your uncle Nom? Would you call your mentor Nom? "Nom" is a assaultive word and well mannered person won't use it to anybody but close friends. If you disagree that argument, I must not know Korean culture as much as I thougth I knew. Why would you say my argument is biased? Because I said "Josen-jin," one of the most assaultive word a Korean can hear, is not as assaultive as it sounds? Please, don't get caught up in 20th century ideology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.175.182.141 (talk) 16:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Back to the topic, I think this is quite simple. "Zainichi Koreans" means permanent Korean residents of Japan. Does Lee Myung-bak have Japanese permanent resident rights? If not, I do not think describing him as zainichi is appropriate. Phonemonkey 15:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Korean Wikipedian would think they are the same meaning. that's why we need to talk. then... Korean Wikipedian should create the new Category:Jainichi, and decide not to include him in it. This candidate should be in Category:Zainichi. it's a fair treatment, isn't it? --Yuan.C.Lee 10:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a quite simple matter. Zainichi is NOT equal to Jainichi.



CAMPAIGN MATERIAL ON WIKIPEDIA?
The section "Mayor of Seoul Metropolitan City" reads like a campaign advertisement rather than an encyclopedic entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.245.238.250 (talk) 20:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

intimate relations
This sentence is inflamatory, useless to readers, and unsupported: Please remove. "It is believed that Lee and Kim's sister have had intimate relations." Foreign3r (talk) 09:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Article needs work
As mentioned before, much of the article needs citations and NPOV work done, as well as some slight grammar fixes. I've done some preliminary work on a couple of the later sections, but the whole still leaves much to be desired. --FriedBunny (talk) 20:30, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that this page is biased.
For example, it stated stuff like "environmentally civic jewel"- a completely biased comment- and negative stuff about him isn't really stated, such as the fact that he ran a salon that was revealed to be more of a whorehouse than a salon. There's a lot of negative stuff about him that's currently floating around in Korean websites that are too much for me to list right now, but it seems like none of these were accounted for.

Not only that, but the BBK incident isn't mentioned, and there's a lot of sentences that wouldn't sound out of place in a North Korean article about Kim Jeong Il, such as "He was the fifth child and grew up with three brothers and three sisters in Pohang, Gyeongsangbuk-do, in extreme poverty, as was the case for many Koreans at that time. Lee spent his childhood helping his mother sell ice cream, wheat flour cakes, cloth, fruit, matches, and candy. One of the most embarrassing moments of his life was when he sold popcorn to high school girls his age. He would be so shy selling that he used to put on a big straw hat so that he would be unrecognizable. His mother encouraged him by telling him to have confidence in what he did." I don't see why this sentence is necessary. Here's another example- "More quietly, Lee also revamped the city's transportation system, adding clean rapid-transit buses. But his lasting accomplishment was in changing the Asian political dynamic, showing that environmentalism can go hand in hand with development." Hello? This has been criticized because it is not working as well as it should be. Also, where's the evidence that he "changed the Asian political dynamic"? I don't think he's had that much effect on other Asian countries, and he's not the first Asian leader to show that "environmentalism can go hand in hand with development" either.

Oh, and another thing, if he's trying to put environmentalism, why is he trying to pushing for the canal, which environmentalists speculate is going to harm the environment?

All in all, I think that this article is too biased and should be re-written.

P.S: I don't think he's that good at economic policies either, because under his leadership, Hyundai Engineering and Construction had split into little groups.

Idoversuperego (talk) 09:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

story
This article's tone is way too unencyclopedic. Examples:
 * From "Early life and education": "He would be so shy selling that he used to put on a big straw hat so that he would be unrecognizable. His mother encouraged him by telling him to have confidence in what he did. His mother was an inspiration for his book Mother."
 * From "Mayor of Seoul Metropolitan City": "So the "Bulldozer" (a nickname given to Lee) went green — and in dramatic fashion."
 * The "Quotes" section

Also, the article lacks citations, footnotes, and references. — Kurykh  20:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, this article has those problems which will be soon gone or expanded by many editors from many countries, I guess. One problem is that currently accessible sources are mostly written in Korean. --Appletrees (talk) 21:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I have made some serious changes to this page
This page wasn't and still isn't an encyclopedic article. I have dropped as many biases that I could find. NPOV does not exist, or, atleast, didn't. If I deleted something that is essential, by all means add it again.. althought I don't believe I did. "Selling 'something' to a girl in his class" isn't really the kind of information that this article needs.Mikeonatrike (talk) 23:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It isn't proper to make this page look like his 'struggle'... He isn't, or atleast shouldn't be, writting this article...Mikeonatrike (talk) 23:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that the sections on his background would be better if they were backed with some references. For example, both allegations of corruption and of good practice as major should be linked to evidence.Miguel Andrade (talk) 09:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. It sounds more like an autobiography of Kim Jeong Il. Uhm, do you think people would mind if I find some negative and positive things that he did and upload them? Cuz this article sounds too outdated as well. Idoversuperego (talk) 14:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Go ahead, here is an open encyclopedia for everyone, and you can add relevant contents as long as you keep yourself neutral as possible. This article also needs his career as a businessman while he was in Hyundai corp. That is his cornerstone on which he stands and which makes him "President-elect" now --Appletrees (talk) 14:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

more Citations!
We need to use in-text citation on this page, like every other wikipedia page. As of now, there are only 4 in-text citations -- and this page is linked from the Main_Page! Heroeswithmetaphors (talk) 08:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Mikeonatrike (talk) 21:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC) don't be afraid to use these...

Controversy
Please do not use "controversial" as a synonym for "unpopular", unless many people oppose him. (And surely you would not use it as code for "I don't like him"; our personal feelings are irrelevant here.)

If there is a controversy, that means there are 2 sides, e.g., for and against. Please research the pro and con of at least one proposal or action of Lee before saying there is a "controversy". --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this was a mistake just blatently removing the section. I have added it back in. If there are problems with the wording I welcome someone to work on it. Everything was well sourced. There are many controversies surrounding Lee and by not addressing them at all, it purposely leaves out important information. Davidpdx (talk) 09:01, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I have once again added back the controversy section and urged whoever removed it to discuss that here on the talk page. Davidpdx (talk) 14:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Pro North or Anti- North??
In the first paragraph it says that he is anti North Korea.. Later it says that his opinions, or rather his standpoint has changed. We should make it clear his current standpoint on the subject. If others agree, I will change this... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeonatrike (talk • contribs) 04:19, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Also "anti" is not a clear word. Does he hate North Koreans in general? Does he oppose communism? Kim Il-Jong? A particular economic or military policy of the North Korean government?


 * Let's not do labels or engage in "original research". Just give the facts. --Uncle Ed (talk) 04:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Anti is unclear. I am wondering what his current standpoint is towards diplomatic relations with North Korea. It is stated in the first line that he has 'hardline' approach.. Just wondering if we should link what is written further down with what is written in the first paragraph.Mikeonatrike (talk) 04:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I have read that source for the 'hardline' on North Korea.. That is a very liberal way of describing his standpoint. I believe he was talking about aid to DPRK if they would denuclearize, which leads me to the idea of 'hardline compared to what'... I am deleting this sentence from the opening paragraph.Mikeonatrike (talk) 21:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Start over
This is a high importance article, but I had to delete so many things after finding they did not accord with their news stories. So I just turned it back into a stub.

We need to check each paragraph carefully, and then restore the info one paragraph at a time. --Uncle Ed (talk) 04:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't recognize your User Name and reverted your changes instantly. I agree that we have to re-evaluate this site and improve on it. I don't think that the link from the main page should come to a stub. Granted a bad article isn't much better.Mikeonatrike (talk) 04:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I went through here yesterday and deleted almost a third of what was written. It was bad and still needs work. I think the POV is more or less neutral now, although the site needs references. I can't read Korean and am not upto date on Korean national affairs so I'm not the one to add references.Mikeonatrike (talk) 04:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I was probably too hasty; see Treebeard. My preference is for short, completely accurate info instead of long, poorly written info. Too bad there's no generally accepted way to have a "showcase" version for the general public and a "working draft" version for us collaborators. (I designed the software for this feature and my friend wrote it, but it never became popular.) --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This article is suddenly on the spotlight, but most wordings regarding the allegation on him is generally ongoing matter. --Appletrees (talk) 15:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to delete all information that isn't referenced. this includes his letters to the president and other events that could be original research. If they aren't, support them!Mikeonatrike (talk) 21:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Tennis Scandal
Did you write this glowing "report" yourself, Mr Lee? Why nothing here about your tennis centre scandal? -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.109.32.173 (talk) 09:17, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Write something about it... something neutral and sourcedMikeonatrike (talk) 21:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Editing this page
I have tried to remove biased information but I believe Mr Lee's best friend just keeps coming and re writting this page. I don't know who Lee is, so, I don't have a bias. If he was "poorer" than most give some proof! If not, quit adding it! This isn't a propaganda site for the glory of his struggle, it's supposed to be an encyclopedia... In addition, if he wrote a letter to the president that changed Korean policy, there must be something.. anything... that says this! Find some sources and then put the facts back! Why do we need long articles that have no proof.. Please don't revert these kinds of edits without sourcing the revisions. In addition, when I put it's because people should know that this information isn't sited and has no proof.. Place a citation there if you want people to believe it.. Otherwise it's unsourced! Mikeonatrike (talk) 15:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

That quote is just his opinion on his success.. Does the George W Bush article have a quote about why he thinks he is succesful? Maybe this is annapropriate for this page.. Mikeonatrike (talk) 16:57, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Mike, I'm wondering if the things that were removed were written in broken English. If so, it's possible that English is not their first langauge. I'd recommend leaving a message on their talk page (even if they aren't a registered user) using simple English phrases explaining what you did here. It's possible they won't understand it or won't look here. Just a thought. Davidpdx (talk) 01:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this page should show his failures as well
The fact that he was convicted more than a dozen times is not mentioned. Also, his failures as the mayor of Seoul are not mentioned here. Under him, Seoul's economic growth rate was one of the lowest among the major Korean cities and Seoul was almost bankrupt. His failure to Cheonggyecheon's restore ecosystem and the original landmarks should be also mentioned as well. The waters in Cheonggyecheon are tap water and the cost to maintain this large fish tank is a burden to Seoul. Evanescenter (talk) 02:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If you could prove any of this, we could write it into the article.. If you have any reliable sources (that can be verified) there wouldn't be a problem writing about his shortcomings... RegardsMikeonatrike (talk) 14:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Election results
This article mentions the election results and voting turnout being low and these stuff. I actually think these sentences need not be up there(notability); everyone can do math, it seems like somebody just didn't like him to be elected 1wonjae (talk) 10:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)