Talk:Lee Shelton

"Brand new Cadillac"
Surely a "brand new Cadillac" could not have been in existence in 1895? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.37.214.121 (talk • contribs) (17:08, 14 April 2003)
 * According to the Cadillac automobile page, the company started in 1902. Though there were no Cadillac cars when the murder took place, it just might be possible that the cars existed when the song was written.  Then again, there are as many variations as there are performers, it seems.  (Nick Cave's is my favourite)  -- IHCOYC 18:25 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
 * The original lyrics I put here were Ike and Tina Turner's; they were the easiest to find. I have revised it to use Lloyd Price's instead; he had the biggest hit with the song, although the hit version was the censored version that had his original lyrics rather than the traditional ones.  Price's turn the Cadillac into a Stetson hat, which seems more plausible as well.  -- IHCOYC 19:50 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
 * Argh! This song already had a good age on it when it yet again became a hit in the r&b era. The lyrics from the the 1950s were not the same as those 20 years earlier, much less in the 1890s.
 * Also, a challenge: has anyone seen any version of the song or lyrics called "Staggerlee" before World War II? Pre-WWII it seems almost always to have been "Stack O' Lee". --Infrogmation 23:16 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"sources say..."
"Other sources say that black roustabouts on Mississippi River docks were called "stack o lees" as they would stack cargo on the lee side of the docks." Would that be Prof. Matilda Sources, the dyslexic folk etymologist? Why does the expression "sources say" always introduce some kind of a wild March hare? Wetman 08:05, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC) Blame it on Nixon, Wetman. "History will absolve me." But strangely, there are no entries in Lyeberry of Congress that list "History" as an author. My favorite variants of the crime you are lamenting are, "According to tradition ...." and "Well, I've always heard ...." Yeah, when I was a small child I "always heard" that the moon was made of green cheese--and now I KNOW the moon shot was faked, because those guys brought back ROCKS. Those of use who went to grad school and were taught to cite things were fools; all we really had to do is preface every declaration with, "The record shows ...." and leave it at that. :) 98.148.73.179 (talk) 19:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC) I removed it. It has all the hallmarks of a false etymology. Mandoliniment (talk) 22:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it has those marks. If the claim can be sourced, it could be included as an item of meta-folklore, but it would take a senior linguist staking professional reputation to make the claim itself begin to be credible. DavidOaks (talk) 17:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Some additions and some questions
I added brief quotes from the versions sung by The Clash and Nick Cave--they seem notable in their differences from more traditional renditions. I'm thinking that the article might work better as an article if the two earlier versions are similarly excerpted with links to full versions. Shouldn't Stagger Lee be referred to as a folk character that may be based on an actual person? Even if that were a settled question, it's the song character that's famous, not the 19th Century criminal. Nareek 04:02, 14 January 2006 (UTC) Went and looked at the history, which I guess I should have done earlier. I see that a whole bunch of names of performers has just recently been removed. I think that may have been a little overzealous; true, there are still links to lists of every known Stagger Lee version, but it would be helpful for this article to boil those down to the best known versions. Nareek 05:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC) Nareek--Speaking as a musician, I most ardently disagree. Performing and appreciating traditional folk music, IMO, is all about "variations on a theme." This particular song, along with Casey Jones and House of the Rising Sun, have not simply been "covered," they have been essentially re-created in many different styles across the whole pop music spectrum. Bulletin: That's the whole point of the exercise. The musicians I play alongside of the most are not amused by people whose only comment is, "You did that wrong; it's not how they do it on the CD." Sorry if I'm getting "confrontational," but the Arts are about creativity. The thought of somebody pruning a list of different versions with the idea of, "Let's not have anything on here that everybody doesn't already know about" goes against the whole thrust of the Arts. I want to know how many versions there are, so I can judge for myself whether they can be milked for creative ideas. I can't speak for Wikipedia, but I would hope that Wikipedians would err on the side of inclusiveness rather than exclusiveness. Your comment, again IMO, reminds me of the character in "Amadeus" who complains that one of Mozart's compositions has, "Too many notes, majesty." Please rethink this. Thanks. 98.148.73.179 (talk) 19:43, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Copyright question
Are the Lloyd Price lyrics copyrighted? If so, they can't be here under Wikipedia's copyvio rules. Same with any of the other lyrics that might be still under copyright. 23skidoo 16:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Lloyd Price claimed that his lyrics were "traditional": i.e. anonymous and from the public domain, and he did not write them. Smerdis of Tlön 17:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Right. Post 1922 US lyrics should generally not be included in Wikipedia as they would be likely to be copyright violations-- but if it is credited as "traditional", that is an exception. -- Infrogmation 17:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * A brief excerpt from copyrighted lyrics for purposes of criticism or commentary is allowed under Fair Use--republishing the entire lyrics is more questionable. Nareek 19:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, attributing a copyright to "traditional" in the US is the same as saying "no known copyright holder" and may be reproduced as the equivilent of public domain. -- Infrogmation 21:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

SInce Mississippi John Hurt died more than 70 years ago, and Lloyd Price's version (traditional") be restored? DavidOaks (talk) 18:09, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

"Toast" lyrics
The sentence "(This version actually retakes a street "Toast" poem on Stagolee. Toasts were 'pre-rap' poems and stories especially popular among those in the "life" and among prisoners. One famous toast "Duriella DuFontane" was covered by Jimi Hendrix and members of Harlem's Last Poets")" seems unlikely to really refer to the Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds version, as implied by it's position. It's something The Clash were much more likely to have used as inspiration, so it looks to me like the line about the Nick Cave version was added in the wrong place.  I'm not sure though, so I'm going to hold off on correcting it.  Thoughts, anyone? Eldang 22:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC) No, the Nick Cave version's the one based on a prison toast.  The Clash version is a cover of a version by the reggae band The Rulers.  You can read more about the origin of Cave's version here:  http://www.daveyd.com/historystagolee.html

Emboyo?
The Clash song "Wrong 'em Boyo" was a cover of a reggae song which was called "Wrong Emboyo". What does "wrong 'em boyo" mean or what's an "emboyo"? Please help! Maikel 20:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

1895 St. Louis Globe-Democrat
It doesn't seem to me that the 1895 article is quoted properly, either in this forum or in others. There appear to be many differing versions of this incident, all stemming from one newspaper account. Accordingly, I have sent a request to the paper archive organization for a copy of the original article. For one thing, the term "fast car" used in the quotation here is either dead wrong, or refers to an anachronism that by itself requires citation as to its meaning. SqueedlyB 10:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Is this fixed? I can see differences from the quotation here and the one in the references. That doesn't look good. // Magnus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.224.178.80 (talk) 11:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

"the crime" section
The article mentioned under the heading "the crime" is entirely false. They're lyrics written by the hardcore band Modern Life is War for a song called "Stagger Lee" which is the last track on their album Midnight in America, which was released August 21st, 2007. Some fan must have found it entertaining, but it should be removed for historical accuracy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * Given that that part of the article was added to Wikipedia sometime before 2007 that seems unlikely. Mandoliniment (talk) 22:36, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Two articles: the person; the song
This article presently combines the story of this person (and his crime) with information about the song (and its many versions) named for him. The two topics should be separated and disambiguated. There are other real persons with songs about them, for whom this is clear in WP. I would like to hear others' views on this. Hult041956 17:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Briefly, I don't think the story of Lee Shelton amounts to much without the connection to the song. Ergo, they ought to remain together.

98.148.73.179 (talk) 19:46, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The two articles should definitely go back together. Anyone looking for Stagger Lee information should be presented with info of the song and the man. The song is inspired by the actions of the man. Without the song, no one would remember nor be interested in Lee Shelton. He committed one single murder over a century ago. I believe Lee Shelton's murder of Billy was 1 of 5 murders in that city on that night. Any of the information about the man is worked into the various lyrics of the various versions. There is nothing about him of interest except his relevance to the song.

Cameason (talk) 06:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Referenes in popular culture
I cut this section from the article and I bring it here for discussion:


 * Stagger Lee, a graphic novel based on the story, was published by Image Comics in May 2006, written by Derek McCulloch and drawn by Shepherd Hendrix (ISBN 1582406073).


 * In the 2007 film Black Snake Moan, Samuel L. Jackson's character sings a boastful version of the song from Stagger Lee's perspective. This version is based on R.L. Burnside's rendition which can be heard on the album Well, Well, Well.


 * The 2004 release, Rubber Factory from The Black Keys features a song titled "Stack Shot Billy".


 * Pro wrestler Junkyard Dog used the name (and theme song) Stagger Lee to surprise his rival Ted DiBiase, returning from a "Loser Leaves Town" match under a mask during an infamous feud in Mid-South Wrestling.


 * Author and music critic Greil Marcus explicitly ties the Stagger Lee archetype to Sly Stone and his album There's a Riot Goin' On in his book Mystery Train: Images of America in Rock 'n' Roll Music.


 * Stagg R. Leigh is the assumed name under which Thelonious Ellison, the protagonist of Percival Everett's novel Erasure writes his parody of blaxploitation literature My Pafology (later changed to Fuck).


 * The St. Louis River Front Times ran a comic feature in the summer of 2007 telling the story of Stagger Lee.

Most of this is just plain irrelevant, and adds nothing of substance to the article. The Greil Marcus reference should be greatly expanded and included in the main body of the text, in a section or subsection on "analysis" of the song and its meanings. The references to the film Black Snake Moan and to Percival Everett's novel Erasure could also be valuable in the context of "contemporary uses" of the song and its themes. The rest is, in my opinion, rubbish. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  15:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The graphic novel is a significant treatment of the subject and should be included in a "contemporary uses" section too. The pro-wrestling mention is less significant, but it should be included too because it shows how the archetype continues to be used. And the only leftover thing is the comic feature, which sounds related to the graphic novel so it can be left out. Now, we have to write that section... Dreamyshade (talk) 05:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, I did this and tried to follow the somewhat reluctant guidelines at "In popular culture" articles - listed in chronological order, referenced, not too many of them. Dreamyshade (talk) 08:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

"Badass" black man?
Not that I have a problem with unprofessional language, but isn't calling him a badass black man both needlessly colloquial and sort of ethnically stereotypical? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.176.22.47 (talk) 23:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Version mentioned as one of "500 greatest country songs"
I don't own the book so can't provide exact info but I recall the early twentieth century version of this from Frank Hutchison (As "Stackalee") was named in a book by David Cantwell and Bill Friskics-Warren, entitled "Heartaches by the Number: Country Music's 500 Greatest Singles". I've linked to the Amazon entry. GBrady (talk) 14:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

History of this article
This Wiki article was really interesting a year or more ago. It was one of my jumping off points to a far more thorough investigation of the history of the song. This article has been dumbed down from something astounding to something sort of interesting. Part of what makes the history of this song so fascinating is how it gets retold and refashioned. It is not merely 100s of people singing the same song with the same music and same lyrics. The story surfaces in a variety of media from pornographic film to graphic novel and is so iconic it was referenced in professional wrestling. This is almost certainly the only song to have been every genre of modern music since ragtime. This song traces the history of last century of music and the article used to give some sense of that. Now it's been whittled down to dullness.

Cameason (talk) 06:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Name
The current name is somewhat anachronistic, as he was never known as "Stagger Lee Shelton". In his own life he was known as "Stag Lee" or "Stack Lee". Stagger Lee was corruption that came about later; the folklore accounts don't include the last name. Additionally, "Stagger Lee" isn't the only popular name in the folklore, and it isn't even the most common. Since "Lee Shelton" already redirects here, I suggest moving the page there; if there are no objections I'll perform the move.--Cúchullain t/ c 22:20, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Done.--Cúchullain t/ c 13:09, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

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