Talk:Lee Smith (baseball)/Archive 1

Lee Smith (baseball) (6 votes, stays until August 16)

 * Nominated July 26, 2006; needs at least 9 votes by August 16, 2006


 * Support:
 * 1) Jaranda wat's sup 21:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) ''Em-jay-es  02:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) PDXblazers 03:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) - A Man In Bl♟ck  (conspire | past ops) 05:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) --M @ r ē ino 13:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 6) -- Nish kid 64 19:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Comments:
 * The all time leader in Baseball saves, one of the top relief pitchers of All-Time, just a stub list Jaranda wat's sup 21:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Definitely one of the top relievers in baseball history - deserves a much better article.   ''Em-jay-es  02:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Its saves, not safes, but, yeah, this article stinks. PDXblazers 03:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed the two typos :) Jaranda wat's sup 03:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, we can do better than this for Lee Smith. --M @ r ē ino 13:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a shame that Lee Smith is not in the Hall of Fame even though he's had quite an impressive career, which includes being the career leader in saves. Hopefully, we can do justice for one of the best relievers in baseball history.-- Nish kid 64 19:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Some sources to incorporate
I'm dumping some links that look like they'll be useful to the article: --M @ r ē ino 18:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Buck O'Neill was the scout who signed Lee Smith
 * Lee Smith discusses coaching in Europe and South Africa (wma file)
 * Lee Smith sits down with Sports Fan Magazine
 * ESPN's player card


 * I've used one so far (a more official-looking version of the 1st one). I also welcome anyone who can find a source for "saved nine games in the Orioles' first 16 games, the fastest to nine saves in major league history".  I found it at April 23 in baseball but there's no source listed there.  —Wknight94 (talk) 03:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

A few more: —Wknight94 (talk) 16:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 2004 Interview including family info and minor league coaching info.
 * Table showing all-time Cubs saves leaders - can also be determined from.
 * Table showing all-time Cardinals saves leaders - shows Smith as second. June_13_in_baseball mentions when Jason Isringhausen passed him.
 * 2003 Giants transactions listing Smith as a roving instructor.
 * 2006 San Jose Giants press release saying Smith is still a roving instructor - probably redundant.
 * Regarding HOF snub. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Great job guys!
It has been almost one week since Lee Smith (baseball) became the COTW and here are the results:

I thank everyone who has contributed to the article, and I hope we can further improve it to Featured Article status.

-- Nish kid 64 20:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Image
Well, it's gonna be extremely hard for this to pass out of GAR without any images. Could this be a case whee a free use image would be alright? (Not in the box of course, but somewhere I'm sure you could argue successful fair use). -- Wizardman 03:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Response left on your talk page.  Nish kid 64  02:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

GA?
Here's what I've noticed while reviewing it as a possible GA: -Okay lead, but I think it could be improved. -No references in the Boston section. -Many paragraphs start out with a year. Maybe change "1985" to "The 1985 season" to make it look better. Reading it so far it doesn't look too bad, at the same time I don't know if I would pass it. -- Wizardman 04:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops, I totally forgot about fixing the lead. I'll also get to work on the other parts of the article.  Nish kid 64  02:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There is alot of weasel words thoughout the article like 1986 World Series in shocking fashion started 1994 in fantastic fashion, etc that should fixed. Jaranda wat's sup 20:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, those are probably my fault. Actually, I'd like the 1986 one to stay - the Buckner play is the most shocking moment I've ever seen in sports.  I literally jumped out my chair involuntarily when that ball trickled into right field.  (And yes, I watched it live so I'm dating myself...)  One of those "I remember where I was when..." moments.  But I'll defer to everyone else since I probably added that.  —Wknight94 (talk) 21:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright, it's up to GA standards now I'd say. I'd like at least one reference in each paragraph, and an image (which I understand is near-impossible to get, that's why I ignored that GA guideline). Those two are something to shoot for if you decide to go for FA-Class status. -- Wizardman 01:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The Current Baseball card fails WP:Fair Use policies, which explicitly states, An image of a Barry Bonds baseball card, to illustrate the article on Barry Bonds. A sports card image is a legitimate fair use if it is used only to illustrate an article (or article section) on the card itself; see the Billy Ripken article. Given Smith is retired, any image of playing is an unrepeatable event, as long it is used to describe his playing career. --   ShadowJester07  ►Talk  20:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have removed the image from the article. A previous image of the same baseball card was also removed and deleted, but for a different reason (copyvio). Nishkid64 (talk) 19:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a look
Per a request on my user talk page, I thought i'd stop in and take a look at this. Not sure i'll make any changes major right away (assuming they are needed). // Tecmobowl 01:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that most of the content in the article is good. Some of the grammar could be improved upon, but that is not a major concern.  I would say the one thing i would suggest is a restructuring of the content. I'm very fond of the way the Hank Aaron article and the general structure of the Sandy Koufax article.  I think it would be beneficial if the article is structured more like those sections.  I don't think the HOF section belongs.  It seems based on speculation and conjecture and not on "facts".  I would also think that the information in the highlights section should be incorporated into the article.  Information like At-Bat by Steve Garvey is repeated unnecessarily. I think this is a great start, but it is far from what i would want in a featured article. // Tecmobowl 19:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Tecmo Banned Indefinitely. FYI--Tecmo has been banned indefinitely for repeated violations of Wiki policy.--Epeefleche 01:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed pagemove
Shouldn't this page be located at Lee Smith (baseball player) instead of Lee Smith (baseball)? The article was originally created at the former title, but was moved on April 10, 2006. However, shouldn't the article title reflect that fact that he's a baseball player and not imply that he's a baseball? :P – Black Falcon (Talk) 17:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Page moved. Thanks, Nishkid64 (talk) 09:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, according to our (extremely) informal guidelines, we tend to use just (baseball). The reasoning is that so many baseball players go on to become baseball coaches and baseball commentators and various other baseball-related occupations.  I don't think we're very consistent about adhering to that but we probably should be.  —Wknight94 (talk) 13:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Naming conventions (people) seems to be the relevant section for this issue. Although it gives no specific guidance regarding athletes, all of the examples given (except two used to distinguish between people of different generations) use an occupation as the parenthetical disambiguator, rather than an activity or object. That is, (chemist) instead of (chemistry), (artist) instead of (art), and (cyclist) instead of (cycling). If a person's occupation changes over time, I suppose the disambiguator should reflect the occupation/profession that most contributes to their notability. – Black Falcon (Talk) 16:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The word "occupation" does not appear anywhere on that page. Looking at other sports, it's difficult to determine the standard.  Ice hockey appears to use "(ice hockey)"random example, NFL is splitrandom example (I see the particularly ugly Sam Baker (American football player) where the disambiguation is longer than the player's name!), NBA uses "(basketball)"random example.  I think the multiple occupations issue applies even more to baseball because many many players stay in the game in some capacity afterwards.  —Wknight94 (talk) 16:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The word 'occupation' does not appear on the page, but "the examples given ... use an occupation as the parenthetical disambiguator" (chemist, actor, musician, congressman, and so on). Thus, what little guidance the page does provide hints at disambiguation by profession.
 * After looking at the examples that you provided (and some others), it seems apparent that there is no clear standard for pre-disambiguating articles on athletes. Ice hockey players (e.g. here) are disamiguated as (ice hockey), (ice hockey player), and (hockey player). NFL is also mixed, as you note. Association footballers (e.g. here) are consistently disambiguated via (footballer). Basketball players (e.g. here) are disambiguated mostly via (basketball) and only rarely as (basketball player). Perhaps centralised discussion on the subject is needed.
 * While the presence of a disambiguator that is longer than the name may be undesirable (as in the case of Sam Baker (American football player)), I think a grammatically misleading disambiguator is even more undesirable. Using (baseball) as a parenthetical disambiguator implies that the subject of the article is: (1) an actual baseball, or (2) a baseball-related topic. This is clearly a case of the latter, but it seems awkward to describe a person as a topic. – Black Falcon (Talk) 17:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess I disagree with your base claim. A "(baseball)" disambiguator does not imply that the person is a baseball - it just implies that "baseball" is sufficient to distinguish him from other Lee Smiths.  Other non-sports examples can be found such as this random category.  Surely no one is going to think that John Blanchard is Pennsylvania.  We have to allow for some application of common sense.  —Wknight94 (talk) 18:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I should point out that you're focusing only the first possibility. However, as I said above, this is clearly a case of the latter – that is, the disambiguator implies that Lee Smith is a baseball-related topic. Thus, the issue is not the possibility for confusion, but rather the accuracy and awkwardness of disambiguation (describing a person as a topic). As for John Blanchard, I have moved the article to John Blanchard (politician) as the only other John Blanchard we have an article about is a preacher and author. – Black Falcon (Talk) 19:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit
I'm belatedly adding my signature as LoCE proofreader. I did the proofreading 12 hours or so ago, but the copyediting was done much earlier by another editor. Finetooth (talk) 19:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated, thank you! Nishkid64 (talk) 08:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Playoff teams
Just a note - one thing which I think would be interesting to note for most closers is whether they were on the mound when their team won a championship, clinched a pennant or division, etc. Unfortunately, this apparently doesn't apply to Smith; his only two playoff teams were the 1984 Cubs (clinched the NL East with a complete game win by Rick Sutcliffe) and the 1988 Red Sox (clinched the AL East on a day that they lost), and both lost in the playoffs. He didn't pitch too well in the postseason; his biggest save may have been in Game 2 in 1984, putting the Cubs one win away from the Series, but he gave up Steve Garvey's game-winning HR in Game 4 which tied it at two games each. He also lost Game 2 of the 1988 ALCS. MisfitToys (talk) 01:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Hall of Fame voting?
It says he's received just over half of the 75% of votes needed - does that mean 38% or so? or 50%? It's kind of weirdly written --AW (talk) 22:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * In 2007 it was 39.8% See article. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks --AW (talk) 16:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Native of where?
"Natal", "native", "nativity" etc properly refer to birth. At one point the article says he is a native of Castor; at another point it says he was raised in Castor but born in Shreveport; and some of the stat sites list his birthplace as Jamestown. Mild Bill Hiccup (talk) 02:21, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Changed to "native of Shreveport". I will make a note of the discrepancy between Jamestown and Shreveport, though. Some sites say Jamestown and some say Shreveport. The locations are miles apart, though. Nishkid64 (talk) 21:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Lee Smith is not a native of Shreveport. He is in fact a native of Castor, Louisiana. He was raised there, still lives there and his kids went to school there. Maybe it isn't a reliable source but the classmate website says he graduated from CHS in 1975.

Mythical (talk) 05:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Native typically refers to place of birth, and sometimes the place where the subject spent most of his life in. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 02:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Lee Smith (baseball). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070207082201/http://www.baseball-reference.com:80/teams/MON/1997_trans.shtml to http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MON/1997_trans.shtml

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