Talk:Lefortovo Tunnel

LOCATION
Russia is located in Asia and not Europe as stated in this article. See map at http://www.mapsofworld.com/asia-political-map.htm
 * Russia spans two continents. The western half of Russia (which includes Moscow) is in Europe, while the eastern half is in Asia. 80.203.224.129 17:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Hoax claims
The claims that the video is a hoax are unfounded.

At 00:49, the video shows two cars veering into the wrong lane and being hit on the side by another car coming from behind at high speed. The outcome is perfectly possible, and saying that cars are "flying" over each other is a gross exaggeration. As for 00:57, the first truck does not hit the wall, it is hit from behind by the truck that "seems to be coming out of the wall." That truck appears to have lost traction and slams into the first truck.

As for all the accidents happening in the same day, neither the current YouTube link nor the Ochevidec website where it appears to originate from seem to make any such claims. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.203.224.129 (talk • contribs).


 * For one thing, when you choose to respond to other users' comments/claims, learn to leave them intact and respond without deleting them. It's a matter of education and respect. You've repeatidly deleted other users' contibutions just to keep your own comments, which is somewhat suspicious.


 * At 00:49 the second car can be clearly seen coming from behind "flying" over the road, hitting the one "in front of it". Call it gross exaggeration, it doesn't change the fact that the tunnel road is flat and cars cannot fly.


 * Between 00:58-00:59 if you run the video in slow motion you can see lots of frames where the first truck can be seen past the camera view threshold with no other vehicles following (and there is no vehicle in front of it for a very long distance). At approx. 00:59 the truck hits the wall (could be well because of the slippery road) and when it bumps there is another truck coming out of nowhere (seems like it came out of the tunnel wall), already facing the wrong direction of travel! There is not a single frame showing any other vehicle hitting the first truck from behind, as a matter of fact it appears coming from the front of the first track, facing the wrong way! At that point the video skips a few frames and resumes later.


 * The claims that the accidents all happened on the same day were made on YouTube and were reffered to on past Wikipedia articles by other contributors and you deleted them for the second time without posting on the discussion page.


 * It is obvious to anyone who can hit "pause" on their player and observe that this is a hoax, which might be entertaining but doesn't mean that it has to be on wikipedia as something original. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.74.64.132 (talk • contribs).


 * At 00:49 the second car can be clearly seen coming from behind "flying" over the road, hitting the one "in front of it". Call it gross exaggeration, it doesn't change the fact that the tunnel road is flat and cars cannot fly.
 * Again, there are no "flying cars." All the cars are sliding, still in contact with the ground.


 * The original source has a higher quality clip of this crash available at http://www.ochevidec.tv/vid/1134472262.avi


 * The accident starts at about 00:07. I am sure that if you review this, you will see that the wheels are still in contact with the road surface. In other words, all the cars involved are sliding. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.203.224.129 (talk • contribs).


 * It's true, cars cannot fly. And they don't on this video. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.199.138 (talk • contribs).


 * Between 00:58-00:59 if you run the video in slow motion you can see lots of frames where the first truck can be seen past the camera view threshold with no other vehicles following (and there is no vehicle in front of it for a very long distance). At approx. 00:59 the truck hits the wall (could be well because of the slippery road) and when it bumps there is another truck coming out of nowhere (seems like it came out of the tunnel wall), already facing the wrong direction of travel! There is not a single frame showing any other vehicle hitting the first truck from behind, as a matter of fact it appears coming from the front of the first track, facing the wrong way! At that point the video skips a few frames and resumes later.


 * Here is a longer clip of the crash: http://www.ochevidec.tv/vid/1134472317.avi


 * The second truck clearly comes from behind, outside of the view of the camera, and partly obscured by the first truck. What happened to it before it enters the frame is anyone's guess, but it doesn't seem to be appearing "out of nowhere/from the tunnel wall." Note that this accident happens in a curved section of the tunnel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.203.224.129 (talk • contribs).


 * It's possible (and looks like) the tunnel becomes thinner at this point. The truck that crashes appears to have been attempting to overtake the other, misjudging his speed and clipping the side of the tunnel causing the spin and subsequent collision. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.199.138 (talk • contribs).


 * The claims that the accidents all happened on the same day were made on YouTube and were reffered to on past Wikipedia articles by other contributors and you deleted them for the second time without posting on the discussion page.
 * Well, then maybe a good compromise would be to write that although certain sites claim that it was shot in a single day, the original source makes no such claims. If any of this belongs in the main article at all, that is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.203.224.129 (talk • contribs).


 * I find it extremely unlikely that these occured on the same day. For one thing, the tunnel would have been closed or subject to restrictions in order to clear the debris, which wouldn't leave much time for all the other accidents to occur. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.199.138 (talk • contribs).


 * These videos that circulate in email chain letters are highly suspect. There is no evidence the video is from the Lefortovo tunnel, no evidence it represents a single day's accidents.  Material from viral emails should not go directly into an encyclopedia article. DonPMitchell (talk) 17:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * This video, or something like it, was shown in Britain as part of Road Wars 10 pm to 12 pm Monday 24 October 2011 on Pick TV (freeview 11). (Someone may have used "fly" to mean "go fast on the ground".) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:22, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

my 2 cents re the two box trucks
Well, obviously there are two roads in the tunnel where traffic moves in opposite directions, so... the second invisible box truck was moving backwards from the second road through a connecting tunnel, hoping against hope to make a short cut but miserably failing at doing so. The first truck hit the "invisible" box truck on the back part, swerving it so much so that it's now facing the oncoming traffic. --Dennis Valeev 15:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

More on the Hoax Video
Some people seem determined to establish the video was authentic. I would challenge them to provide some corroborating evidence, or at least an explanation for why they insist the dodgy video is genuine.

Firstly, if you look at the video it is clearly a computer simulation, not actual footage. The cars do not decelerate realistically, nor is there any reaction from other drivers when a crash occurs. The bit with the trucks shows one truck spawning into the same location as the other - causing an improbably spectacular crash.


 * Why would you jump to the conclusion that it is a hoax? I'm all for keeping an open mind, but just because something looks sensational and you don't understand parts of it doesn't mean it cannot possibly be real. You have clearly never been involved in or been a witness to an accident such as this. Other drivers generally want to get away from a crash as quickly as possible. They mostly will not stop if they are ahead of the crash. As mentioned previously, there is no spawning. The angle from which the video was shot obscures one of the trucks from view and it only becomes visible when it collides with the side of the tunnel. I do not see any evidence in the video that it is a computer simulation. 84.9.199.157 00:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, if you search the web for the Lefortovo tunnel, the ONLY references to the high crash rate and the "tunnel of death" tag are with relation to this one clip. I couldn't find any references to these horrific accidents in any official or journalistic source, which there would be if they were as horrendous as those shown in the clip or as regular as described in the accompanying text.

If the only source of this information is one questionable youtube clip, it is not verifiable and shouldn't be on Wiki. Provide corroborating information if you have any, but otherwise stop deleting valid questions over the accuracy of the article. Nix6 12:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no idea how you can say that it "clearly" is a computer simulation. While the claims that it has an extremely high crash rate and that the crashes happened in a single day are probably untrue, there is no question that the actual tunnel exists and that people have accidents in busy tunnels. None of the clips look particularly horrific to me or different from what one would expect on a high-speed road, and when you consider how big the world is, you can't expect every single crash in every single tunnel on the planet to make the international media.


 * The reason you're having trouble finding information about the tunnel is probably because it's an insignificant tunnel somewhere in Moscow, Russia. You know, Russia, where they primarily speak Russian. Lefortovo just happens to be one of many transliterations of a russian name. The tunnel appears to be part "third transportation ring" in Moscow and runs under an historic area transliterated as Lefortovo, Lefortovsky, Lefortovski and so on. It also runs under the Yauza River which means there is probably some water buildup in the tunnel (that certainly happens in such tunnels where I live) which combined with low temperatures make for less than ideal driving conditions.


 * Here are some references to the tunnel and accidents:
 * http://www.utro.ru/articles/2006/08/14/574475.shtml
 * http://www.escortpro.ru/services.php?theme=escort&body=install6
 * http://www.ita-aites.org/cms/399.html
 * http://www.metrostroy.ru/index.php?id=70#avto
 * http://www.sistema-hals.ru/english/main.phtml?pid=4&addpid=282


 * That's in addition to the links in the actual article! As for the "tunnel of death" nickname.. If they don't call it that in Moscow, it's certainly the nickname it has gotten on the internet, as evident by your search results. 80.203.224.129 00:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way... what about russian editors living in Moscow?
Seems like nobody lives in Moscow who actually could agree or reject all the claims here? Why do we debate how the Moscow people call their own tunnel? Ask one. My not so humble opinion. --grin &#9998; 14:01, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

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