Talk:Left Party (Turkey)

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Özgürlük ve Dayanisma Partisi

ODP ODP Kadikoy

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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I fixed this. "BetacommandBot" is perhaps the biggest pain in the ass on wikipedia, and that's saying something. T L Miles (talk) 04:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Repeated removal of libertarian socialism has had no reasonable justification whatsoever
There's two editors removing it: User:Darkstar1st repeatedly (who's on a Wikipedia-wide cleansing of any mention of libsoc upon deciding it's some kind of international hoax) and User:Toddy1, whose edit summary reads: "I see nothing in the 20 page document that explicitly supports the claim that the ideology is Libertarian Socialism (liberter sosyalizm), so remove unverifiable claim"

Please see the actual reference given: Gunter, Michael M. (2010). Historical Dictionary of the Kurds (2nd ed. ed.). Lanham: Rowman & Littlefield Pub. Group. p. 247. ISBN 0810875071.

I quote directly: "The ODP, or Freedom and Solidarity Party, is a Turkish socialist libertarian party founded in 1996" fi (talk) 23:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * the source given for the ideology is in Turkish, no translation provided. . Darkstar1st (talk) 01:46, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Google translate. Look why are you removing references for socialist libertarianism from countless articles? Thats POV pushing, please read WP:NPOV. --Mrjulesd (talk)  01:56, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I did google translate it and the term libertarian socialist does not appear in the link next to ideology.Darkstar1st (talk) 02:30, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, did you miss the part where I explained, again, that the source is written in American English by a respected professor from Tennessee? What on god's earth you even talking about? Look at the citation I added after your second or third removal of libsoc. That would be the citation above. The one in English. fi (talk) 02:35, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't even... not that it matters, but the book is in English. You can look it up on Google book search, for example. That's an English quote, from an English book, by an American academic. Did you even look at the source? fi (talk) 02:03, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * the source I tagged was in ideology and that is not the source given there. Darkstar1st (talk) 02:34, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please do us the courtesy of reading the article you are editing before editing it further. fi (talk) 02:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


 * The source given for ideology was Özgürlük Ve Dayanişma Partisi, Tüzüğü. I see nothing in this 20 page document that explicitly supports the claim that the ideology is Libertarian Socialism (liberter sosyalizm).  If you think there is, please quote a sentence from it that does support it - please quote in the original language, so we can verify that the sentence is present, and provide a translation of the sentence you are quoting.


 * If you think the source is the wrong source, then please edit the article, to provide the right source.-- Toddy1 (talk) 03:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


 * It's already in the article. I assumed there was some other reason for referencing the libsoc-flavored manifesto and left it up to the concerned editors, but the point is that it's completely superfluous because the affinity has already been sourced, if anyone had bothered to look. fi (talk) 03:15, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Look it says"Özgürlük ve Dayanışma Partisi, özgürlükçü, özyönetimci, enternasyonalist, demokratik planlamacı". Now look at https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberter_sosyalizm it describes libertarian socialism as "Liberter sosyalizm veya özgürlükçü sosyalizm", Liberter and özgürlükçü are words for libertarianism. Özyönetimc means self-government. --Mrjulesd (talk)  03:29, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Since User:Finx said that the source for it being libertarian-socialist is page p247 of Gunter's Historical Dictionary of the Kurds, I have changed the citation for the libertarian-socialist to that. My edit summary makes it clear that though I have not checked that source, User:Finx says he/she has.--  Toddy1 (talk) 03:50, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


 * User:Mrjulesd's quotation "Özgürlük ve Dayanışma Partisi, özgürlükçü, özyönetimci, enternasyonalist, demokratik planlamacı", translates as "Freedom and Solidarity Party, liberal [or libertarian], self-governing, internationalist, democratic planners". I do not see how that directly and explicitly supports the claim that the party is libertarian-socialist. WP:STICKTOSOURCE suggests that Wikipedia articles have citations that directly and explicitly support statements in articles.--  Toddy1 (talk) 03:50, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


 * You don't see how a socialist party identifying as libertarian... makes that party libertarian socialist? I find that rather incredible, but I guess it's beside the point now, so I may as well drop it. fi (talk) 03:55, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * What you are doing is called original research. That is against Wikipedia policy.--  Toddy1 (talk) 04:01, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It's... original research... to assume that self-described socialists and libertarians... subscribe to libertarianism. Okay then. fi (talk) 04:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Quotations from non-English source
WP:NONENG says "As with sources in English, if a dispute arises involving a citation to a non-English source, editors may request that a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided, either in text, in a footnote, or on the article talk page." User:Mrjulesd has cited Özgürlük Ve Dayanişma Partisi, Tüzüğü as the source for the various quotations in Freedom and Solidarity Party. Please could you provide the original Turkish for each of those quotations.-- Toddy1 (talk) 04:01, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * So you can't translate text? Sigh ok, but you will actually believe me?

Bu evrensel ve tarihsel özlemin taşıyıcısı olan Özgürlük ve Dayanışma Partisi;

yeniden üreten eşit, özgür, sömürüsüz ve sınıfsız bir dünya arayışı insanlığın özlemidir.

doğrultusunda, sermaye güçlerinin egemenliğini, emperyalizmin tahakkümünü ortadan kaldırarak,

emek güçlerinin siyasi iktidarının kurulmasını amaçlar.

kapitalizmin ve onun insanlığa dayattığı bütün baskı, sömürü, şiddet ve eşitsizlik biçimlerinin ortadan kalkmasını savunur. Özgürlük ve Dayanışma Partisi, özgürlükçü, özyönetimci, enternasyonalist, demokratik planlamacı, doğa


 * --Mrjulesd (talk)  04:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

i used google to translate and still no mention of libertarian socialism. do you have a better translation? ''Freedom and Solidarity Party, who are carriers of this universal and historical aspirations reproduce equality, freedom, humanity's quest for a world without exploitation and classless aspirations. In line, the domination of capital strength, eliminating the domination of imperialism, It aims to establish the political power of the labor force. all the pressure of capitalism and impose his humanity, exploitation, violence and advocates the elimination of inequality format. Freedom and Solidarity Party, liberal, özyönetimc, the internationalist, democratic planners, nature'' Darkstar1st (talk) 06:15, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

So User:Mrjulesd has the following Turkish quotations to back his translations: Unless anyone objects, I will delete the first quotation from the article, and add the other Turkish quotations to footnotes, improving the verifiablity of the the article.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Bu evrensel ve tarihsel özlemin taşıyıcısı olan Özgürlük ve Dayanışma Partisi" ["carrier of the universal and historical longing"]
 * Google translate says: "This universal and the bearer of the historical longing for Freedom and Solidarity Party".
 * I think we should delete that quotation since the quotation is a longing for the party not for the stuff in the paragraph of the article.
 * "yeniden üreten eşit, özgür, sömürüsüz ve sınıfsız bir dünya arayışı insanlığın özlemidir" ["an equal, free, exploitation-less and class-less world."]
 * Google translate says: "reproducing equality, freedom, humanity's quest for exploitation and a classless world is longing"
 * Yes, that can stay.
 * "doğrultusunda, sermaye güçlerinin egemenliğini, emperyalizmin tahakkümünü ortadan kaldırarak" ["end the power of the forces of capital and imperialism"]
 * Google translate says: "In line [doğrultusunda], the domination of capital strength, eliminating the domination of imperialism"
 * Yes, that is probably right.
 * "emek güçlerinin siyasi iktidarının kurulmasını amaçlar" ["set up the power of the labor forces"]
 * Google translate says: "It aims to establish the political power of the labor force"
 * Yes, that can stay.
 * "kapitalizmin ve onun insanlığa dayattığı bütün baskı, sömürü, şiddet ve eşitsizlik biçimlerinin ortadan kalkmasını savunur. Özgürlük ve Dayanışma Partisi, özgürlükçü, özyönetimci, enternasyonalist, demokratik planlamacı, doğa" ["towards a libertarian, self-rule-based, internationalist, pro-democratic-planning, ecologist, anti-militarist and feminist socialism."]
 * Google translate says "all the pressure of capitalism and impose his humanity, exploitation, violence and advocates the elimination of inequality format. Freedom and Solidarity Party, liberal [or libertarian], self-rule-based [özyönetimc], internationalist, democratic planners, nature"
 * Yes, that can stay.
 * I object to removing it as a citation for libsoc above, right where it was before you and Darkstar1st pulled it, because (as was pointed out to you already) the word for liberal is "liberal" and never "özgürlükçü" which translates to one thing only: libertarian as in "libertarian socialist." That is, the only thing libertarian means outside the context of American establishment politics. There was absolutely nothing wrong with this original citation and it's only the POV-pushing farce going on here presently that even compelled me to add a redundant English-language citation. Leave it be. fi (talk) 11:08, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Google translate says özgürlükçü = freedom, My dictionary says it means liberal or liberalism, liberality. --Obsidi (talk) 17:59, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Go to http://tr.wikipedia.org/, type "özgürlükçü" in the search box and press enter. fi (talk) 23:01, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * (repeat from earlier) Look at the Turkish article on libertarian socialism at https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberter_sosyalizm; it describes libertarian socialism as "Liberter sosyalizm veya özgürlükçü sosyalizm", Liberter and özgürlükçü are both words for libertarianism. --Mrjulesd (talk)  18:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Then why does it say at the top of the page "liberteryen ile karıştırılmamalıdır." or in other words in English "Should not be confused with libertarianism?" --Obsidi (talk) 06:45, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Gunter (p. 246) writes, "The ODP...is a Turkish socialist libertarian party...." Google translates "libertarian" to "özgürlükçü;" freedom and liberty to "özgürlük."  "özgürlükçü" translates back to freedom.  While the literal translation may be "socialist freedom party", the point of reliable sources is that they can be relied upon to capture the meaning.  "Libertarian" derives from the word "liberty" which is the Norman-derived synonym for the Anglo-Saxon derived "freedom."  TFD (talk) 18:50, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * There we go, now that's a good cite, we should use that. --Obsidi (talk) 06:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It's already used and in the article. That was the original source Darkstar1st requested and subsequently removed. fi (talk) 07:34, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * would anyone object to me adding an inline citation until a human can translate the source? Darkstar1st (talk) 12:24, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Gunter is in English, and should be used as the source. Although it was used in the article until removed by Darkstar1st, it was quoting a different sentence about a different issue.  --Obsidi (talk) 12:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought Gunter was only talking about dev yol, not the entire ODP? Darkstar1st (talk) 13:00, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It had previously been used only to talk about dev yol, but it also talks about the entire ODP before it gets to that. --Obsidi (talk) 17:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * ah ok, thanks for the clarification. my apologies for the disruption/error on my part. Darkstar1st (talk) 17:56, 9 February 2015 (UTC)