Talk:Legacy of Leonid Brezhnev

Deleted phrase

 * but support for the ideals of communism and Marxism-Leninism continued to be evident, even on the eve of his death.

This phrase is nothing but a piece of communist propaganda. Not to say, a vague one. Of course some supported it, even in United States. But in late soviet Union  "ideals of communism " was matter of jokes rather than support among common people. Also, how it is related to Brezhnev's legacy? Also, how it was "evident"? In Pravda newspaper? Please do not restore contested text without supporting references. Lovok Sovok (talk) 21:44, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I just referenced it, and no, the reference is not in the lead! --TIAYN (talk) 22:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see what supports your reverts in the references. It's much the opposite. 24.184.232.19 (talk) 22:16, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It says fewer and fewer people believed, but that there were still believers there.. If you want to reword, please do. I reverted you back . --TIAYN (talk) 22:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The changed phrasing makes sense and doesn't sound like communist propaganda. However believers into something are always there. Some even believe in rabbit's eggs. But this does not prove that it constitutes legacy of Brezhnev. Therefore I am still against this addition. This article is specificalyy about legacy of LB. YOu cannot put the whole history of the Soviet Union into this page. You have to add only facts that are proven to be direct consequences of LB, not just everything that happened at these times. Formally, even Gorbachev is a "legacy of Brezhnev": he became politician in Brezhnev's times. So you may claim that perestroika is legacy of Brezhnev as well.
 * Concluding my rant: everything which is not directly proved in refs that it is "legacy of Brezhnev" is to be rightfully deleted from this article. Lovok Sovok (talk) 23:03, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, there will need to be a reference that states that such material is directly related to the "legacy of Brezhnev". Also, the article owner should provide a direct quote from source that essentially states that "support for the ideals of communism and Marxism-Leninism continued to be evident" rather than continue to revert dozens of times in order to push this non-supported vagueness that he is reading into the book into the article. 24.184.232.19 (talk) 02:14, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Citation tags
Please don't remove citation tags without addressing the issue. Lovok Sovok (talk) 15:37, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn't read the above. YOu should have made a new section. Lovok Sovok (talk) 15:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Still I disagree with the phrasing. You are referring to a 2002 book. Even if the statement in in was correct, this was 10 years ago. "Scarce" is a vague, inexact, time-bound opinion. It sounds like a grumble of a dissatisfied researcher (or, after reading, as a bragging of a proud researcer who "filled the gap"), rather than an encyclopedic info. Lovok Sovok (talk) 15:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


 * And finally, the claim of scarsity is plain false (at least for today), as a google books search readily shows. Of course, there is much more books about Stalin, but about Brezhnev (and his legacy, or, rather, consequences of his rule) are quite enough. Therefore I am going to delete the corresponding phrases. Lovok Sovok (talk) 15:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Article title
The article title is catchy, however IMO it is good for a book, but not for an encyclopedic article. An indication for this is rather meaningless firt sentence: "The legacy of Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev .... began to become apparent soon after his death." It is just a placeholder for want of something informative. And by the way, who says so? And what it is "soon"? and how apparent? and why only after death? And so on.

I would suggest to rename it to something specific, such as "Consequences of Brezhnev's rule" or "Historical impact of Brezhnev's rule". Lovok Sovok (talk) 16:00, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * See Legacy of Pedro II of Brazil which is a GA. + you'll have to take searchability into account, no one will ever search consequences of Leonid Brezhnev rule. It should be noted that "consequences" and "historical impact" is just the same as "legacy" in any sense of the word. No reason to move, but those titles should be redirected to this page. --TIAYN (talk) 19:52, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Brezhnev legacy Brezhnev's legacy are searchable terms, so I agree with you. However the first sentence (copied from Pedro) sucks. I will think how to replace it. Lovok Sovok (talk) 21:38, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It looks better now :) --TIAYN (talk) 06:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

About Sandle and Bacon
I have read Sandle, Mark; Bacon, Edwin "Brezhnev Reconsidered." with interest. The overall impression is that of a solid work. Unfortunately there are quite a few factual errors in minor details. Fortunately, as far as I could see they are unimportant for the major issues, so I guess the authors didn't bother to double check (and wikipedia was not available at that time :-). Lovok Sovok (talk) 18:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Should be merged into Leonid Brezhnev
After reading this and briefly scanning the Leonid Brezhnev article, I'd argue that this could be easily merged into the Leonid Brezhnev article. I mean, it would make that article more comprehensive, and it doesn't post that much WP:SIZE problems, at least not compared to other similar articles on very famous political dignitaries, the Brezhnev article is only slightly above 80KB size, far smaller than many other similar articles out there. But then again, I also think Lenin's article could easily be 2x expanded without splitting anything, as he was an extremely important international figure and important in many other aspects. –MuZemike 07:46, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * But the Brezhnev article is waiting for another expansion; before I do this I want to make the article smaller..... If the article doesn't become that much bigger after my second expansion effort I'll merge the article. --TIAYN (talk) 07:55, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Other matters
Some of these are little covered or not covered in the article.


 * Soviet cinema underwent its golden age under Brezhnev.
 * The War in Afghanistan - one of the USSR's biggest disasters. And later the West's.
 * The Vietnam War - a success.
 * Continued support for the space programme which despite Apollo performed very respectably against the USA. Support for science.
 * Expansion of nuclear power generation, submarine fleet and the transformation of the Warsaw Pact into a quasi-autonomous federation. All of these had consequences which we still deal with.
 * Corruption appears to have proliferated under him.
 * Aggressive secularisation and atheism appears to have been less of a priority.

I hope this is an even handed list. It is all relevant to his legacy to the USSR and the present day region.

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