Talk:Legislation on Chinese Indonesians

Repeal of these laws
It is not correct to say most or almost all of these laws have been removed. Some are still enforced.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.56.68.221 (talk • contribs).
 * which ones? please contribute --Merbabu 12:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Speedy deletion proposal
While i agree the quality of this article is poor, and maybe incorrectly makes assertions about the current situation, I believe that the information is useful from a historical perspective and the problems in the artilce can be fixed. It is an important part of recent Indonesian history - even if it is currently a bit POV in its current form. Deletion would only be POV in the other direction. --Merbabu 12:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Deletion disagreed. These are facts and do not constitute any biased statements. 70.243.237.170 11:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Why is that there are numerous people who claim they know about this topic, but no-one will improve the article. It's just a list of legislation. I think I will start deleteing it. It's an article, not a list. Merbabu 11:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Deletion disagreed. Renaming article proposed. This list was a spin-off from Chinese Indonesian article. Another option would be to put stub tag to encourage more users fix up the article. Lack of details shall never be the grounds for Wikipedia deletion policy. 70.243.237.170 17:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Anomalies and Exceptions
There are exceptions on such laws and regulations banning the use of mandarin language, for example, the use of mandarin language in traditional chinese medicine prescriptions are not prohibited, since the legal proceedings related to this case has been suspended after a lobby made to the the Attorney General (Jaksa Agung) of Indonesia by INI ( Ikatan Naturopatis Indonesia )Blunardi 14:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Presenting A Few Bitter Facts
1. How many percent Indonesian Chinese students are allowed to enroll in Indonesia State University ? 5% ? Naah, Less than 3%. 2. How long it has been going like that ? Since the beginning and up to now. 3. How many Indonesian Chinese Politician Indonesia Goverment has, beside Kweek Kian Gie ? None

This is just a Few Facts. Evidences are everywhere and quite overwhelming as the matter of fact. I hope the title of "a few" will not be mis-interpreted as "nothing happened" for future reference. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ip2665 (talk • contribs).
 * Well, please contribute if you can verify with references. No-one is pretending that this article doesn't need work. Merbabu 12:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll answer your questions.

* Arief Budiman (Soe Hok Djin), scholar in political studies. * Alvin Lie, member of Parliament from PAN. * Harry Tjan Silalahi, former student activist in 1960s, former member of the Supreme Advisory Council, former member of the Parliament, intellectual focusing on politics and policy studies, Co-Founder of CSIS. * Jusuf Wanandi, former student activist in 1960s, former representative in the People’s Consultative Assembly, intellectual focusing on policy and strategic studies, Co-Founder of CSIS. * Kwik Kian Gie, PDIP politician, former minister in the administrations of Abdurrahman Wahid and Megawati Sukarnoputri. * Mari Pangestu, Minister of Trade in the era of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono (2004 - present) * Oei Tjoe Tat, Old Order politician and once President Sukarno's advisor * Soe Hok Gie, political analyst and activist in 1960s * Yap Tjwan Bing, member of the Committee for the Preparation of Indonesia’s Independence (PPKI) I believe that the problem with Chinese Indonesians-Native Indonesians problem lies within both of the parties. If the Native Indonesians can accept that the Chinese Indonesians as a part of Indonesia and not some foreigners, and Chinese Indonesians can see the Natives as equals and not some semi-human beings, they would get along fine :) Matahari Pagi 04:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Most of them are not even interested in enrolling to state university, focusing more on private owned universities (usually Christian Universities)instead where their own ethnicity is the majority, so they can keep to themselves rather than mingling with the natives in state-owned universities.
 * 2) Since the beginning of time since Chinese ethnicities were given special status above native Indonesians by the colonial Dutch, made them think themselves as an exclusive society, more refined thatn the natives. Later, the discriminatory legislations by the government made it worse, making them leaning more to decide to flock within their own community.
 * 3) Most of them are not interested in Indonesia's politics to start with. This partly due to discrimination from the former governments. But there are a lot of prominent figures such as:

Someone is ignorantly pretending nothing happened to Chinese in Indonesia. I strongly advised that someone to look at the article's examples just as start and then search the Wikipedia for a lot more overwhelming references. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ip2665 (talk • contribs).
 * As I said, there is no reason why you can't do this as long as the references are reliable sources. People can request information of other editors, but ultimately, it can only be up to the individual editors what articles they chose to work on. Merbabu 01:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems that someone is disagree with this topic for some reasons. And instead of giving his/her own contributions about the grounds of his/her disagreement, this someone so far can only ask other editors contributions. Furthermore, proposes a deletion based on current condition ? A speedy one.

While facts may not be reliable but they are still sources. The quality of those sources depend on who, what, where and when they come from. There were no rape cases in Indonesia Riot 1998 if we are talking about police report is the 'Only' reliable resource, while facts and other reports from different organizations are overwhelming, just for an example. Funny thing is I just remember how Suharto will exactly handle this similar situation. Any disagreements with him is good for deletion. A speedy one (read: kidnapping). Please be more contributive yourself. Add more and be more constructive and lead other wikipedians to build the community in a more constructive ways. I strongly agree with Lack of Detail shall never be the ground for any deletions policy. Especially for a good Wikipedian policy. Ip2665 11:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ip2665, who is "someone" that you keep mentioning. Why not improve the article yourself instead of berating others for not doing it. That is how wikipedia works! If you want something improved, start the improvements yourself. You don't need permission. he he Merbabu 11:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Tidying up
Important as the subject of this article is, I don't think it justifies a separate article for each of the discriminatory laws. I think the way ahead is for editors to track down the relevant laws and regulations and replace the redlinks with a brief summary of the relevant legislation, as I have done with the MPRS decree. Davidelit

Please change the title
Hello, I wrote (not me exactly, I took it as a third person perspective [reader] of course) this article in Bahasa Indonesia. Could you please change the title, for one thing the title is not correct and not neutral. This law is an anti monopoly law of a sort (PP 10), and the Chinese is not spesifically reffered to in this law, it is so happened they are the biggest affected by it. Please also note that when this law is made, Indonesia is recently just became an independent country, the Chinese in Indonesia (although they live, say forever, in Indonesia) were asked to choose whether they wanted to be an Indonesian citizen or they want to keep their Chinese citizenship (at that time they were allowed to have dual citizenship).


 * This rule apply to every dual nation individual in Indonesia, not just the Chinese. Australian-Indonesia, American-Indonesian, Arab-Indonesian : all have to choose and this rule still apply until now (recently when the individual turn 17).

Later on I find another paper in Sumatera that refer to this law (PP 10) that the riot breaks because the vendor (mostly Chinese) refuse to follow the rules and worse, they kept basic food materials hidden so the price would rise up. People were upset, and though the event was triggered by some, angry people doesn't choose.

So please change the title, I don't think the article should be deleted, just change the title. Serenity id (talk) 03:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The question is to what SatuSuro 04:01, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Legislation relating to ethnic Chinese in Indonesia? --Merbabu (talk) 04:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I just change it. Serenity id (talk) 04:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not agree with the current move (it does not make sense to a native english speaker for a start) or the suggested titles - cumbersome and lack any adequate understanding of Indonesian history from a long term perspecitve (there have been difficulties between ethnic groups in Indonesia for hundred and in some cases thousands of years) this needs more discussion than just a move - it is one of about 10 or so very problematic articles in the Indonesian project that need discussing at the roject noticeboard- and not here SatuSuro 04:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, it may not be a perfect title, but does sound more neutral than the first, what is your suggestion?
 * Wow, I just realize that re-neutralization is a big job in here, Phiuh on the language *LoL*, whoever wrote it is not neutral. I can fix it but it is a "10 hour straight job" of editing and moving references from Indonesian language article. In there they were numbers and references for every line. So much better, not like here, a lot of the lines were opinionated. Serenity id (talk) 04:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Please do not consider this change with such urgency - it is a contentious issue - and at the English language Indonesian project we do not want material from the Indonesian language Indonesian project that does not have WP:RS and WP:V - as it is a constant problem that material is transferred - and never follow ed up if no refs tags are given - some articles have 1 or 2 year old tags because the eds who have added material never come back to attend to the issues that they add. If you actually have an article inthe Indonesian language project that is actually cited - the next problem is if all the sources are in Indonesian - this is English Wikipedia - we need to see english language sources wherever possible SatuSuro 04:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

This discussion needs to go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Indonesia - as it affects other articles concerning chinese in Indonesia as well - it needs one place for a centralised discussion SatuSuro 04:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I have edit until background and stop since the statement need reference. My reference however will be valid, it cited from a nationan wide circulation or a top regional circulation, so don't worry about the validity. So don't you worry about references. I am at my office right now and consider "a 10 hour straight editing job" is unfair, so I will wait until I got back home and edit it mercylessly until it has a neutral sound. Until after my edit, you are free to state your objection. I'll finish it don't worry, kept my word, but after this article I'm gone. Laterz. Serenity id (talk) 04:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Thats fine - no rush :) SatuSuro 04:59, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not gonna rush, I'll ask for two weeks "do not edit major changes in progress" tag on the article. Serenity id (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Captain's log on changes

 * For example, the enforcement that triggered the 1967 incident in Western Kalimantan took the life of 42,000 Chinese Indonesians. They were accused to be separatists who wanted to establish a Chinese nation in Western Kalimantan. -- I am removing (if anyone object, feel free to put it back in) this statement. Because:


 * Double check: Other references to the event was called: The Paraku case, which left 42,000 Tionghoa dead, carried out by provoking ethnical sentiments between the Dayaks and the Tionghoas (ref: http://home.snafu.de/watchin/Discrimination.htm) and did not mentioned anything about (or irrelevant) to the event or article topic.
 * Triple check: Another references by blog and yet took the number from Kompas daily (national circulated daily paper (http://handy.hagemman.com/index.php/2008/01/25/mangkok-merah-dan-paraku-pgrs/) mentioned similar forces by military and not mentioning anything about topic (trade law being implemented) - and more closely related to Indonesian-Malaysian dispute during the '67. PLUS the number of victim mentioned was not 42,000 but 3,000. I think both numbers should be mentioned in a more relevant topic (but not this one) providing that both have references. Serenity id (talk) 16:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Note a different kind of numbers:
 * "During the implementation about 500 thousands affected [8] (Tempo)"
 * "about 25.000 small groceries/ booths by foreign retailers (mainly) Chinese affected by PP No. 10 [9] (Waspada)."
 * "About 199 thousand apply, but only 102 thousand manage to be placed in a ship sent by The PRC government [18] [19]."
 * My own note about this is: I doubt that there are 500 thousand, since even the one who applied to leave was only 199 thousand. But I'm not one to judge which one is correct and which one is not. So I put everything and leave it to the readers to decide.


 * Removal of some previous entry with notes:
 * this statement needs citation and related to another law for citizenship in 1958 concerning Chinese Indonesian, it may have a connection to the subject but not as simple as the accusition stated. The statement may safely considered as opinion and fact needed to back it up: "The reason was that at that time was that Chinese Indonesians were never acknowledged as proper citizens of Indonesia and always considered as foreigners" (not true, see second point of pro and cons about citizenship).
 * this is pure opinion and not fact based - Despite a lot of protests from Chinese Indonesians, which unfortunately all failed due to the lack of political power in the congress, the government executed the directive anyway. [Note that The loudest protest recorded by the media is from the chinese government]
 * citation needed for this statement. Notes that Hong kong, Taiwan, and Singapore is not an official destination. Official destination is China, later on it is noted that some actually move to Hong Kong and Taiwan after a few years. As per Singapore I don't have any data. But I guess it is only natural since it is the closest, not sure whether there is any news from Singapore official or whether Singapore is already a country at the time? "Alarmed by the news of the early unfortunates, many Chinese Indonesians started mass exodus to China,  Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore."
 * This statement sounds like an allegation with no citation, while the second statement sounds like anti-Indonesia propaganda technique #3 (card stacking), because it has no relation with a trade law : "Those who stayed were forced to re-register themselves as Indonesian citizens by renouncing their alleged Chinese citizenship regardless of the valid Indonesian citizenship they may already have had. In addition, the terror intensified the urgency to do away with their Chinese names and adopt Indonesian-sounding ones."

Translation help
Anyone know the English word for "politik mengadu domba" or "politik memecah belah"? Is there any certain term used in English for this? Politik memecah belah is a politic tactic specially use in order to make a united one group into several group that attacks one another. Serenity id (talk) 02:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps "deliberately divisive political tactics", "the politics of divide and conquer", "pitting political foes against one another" or "playing opponents off against each other". The last two sound better to me....Davidelit (talk) 16:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, thank you- thank you: "the politics of divide and conquer" -- I think this one appeal to my memory, does 'devide et ampera means the same? We were told about this when we were elementary school. My brain is rusty, so I can't really tell whether devide et ampera is a song or I got it in my history class :D Serenity id (talk)


 * "Divide et impera" is the Latin phrase from which the English "divide and conquer" was translated, and it means the same thing. It's probably not as familiar to the average English speaker, though. See also divide and conquer and divide and rule. -- pne (talk) 04:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Removal of tag
Sorry don't have time to do research, I'm removing tag for edit in second section. Serenity id (talk) 02:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Background
Background is inaccurate, it should stay as:
 * Indonesian law concerning Chinese-Indonesian are laws, directives, or constitutions enacted by the government of Indonesia that affected the lives of Chinese Indonesians or Chinese national living in Indonesia since the nation's independence.
 * The laws are considered discriminatory by some, and taken as laws made against Chinese Indonesian. This article is a list and background review behind controversial laws and directive officially issued by the Government of Republic of Indonesia.

Compare to this one (now):
 * One of the points of contention is the selection of a proper term to describe Indonesian residents of Chinese descent. Accompanying explanatory text to Article 26 of the 1945 Constitution used the term Tionghoa to describe this group. In 1948, the Communist Party of Indonesia began using Tionghoa in its terminology, prompting the beginning of an unofficial ban on its use.

It talks about the terminologies, it has no relation to the article. It can be one law discussed, fine, and we add terminology as one of it, but it shouldn't rule as the background when the article was stating law about merchant (economy) and citizenship. Serenity id (talk) 06:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Interwikilink
Some genius change the interwiki link to id to none existing page, I'm changing it too. Serenity id (talk) 06:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Already moved to a different title, which seems grammatically fine. Ucucha 14:47, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Regulation of Chinese Indonesians → Indonesian laws concerning Chinese-Indonesians — Page was recently removed without discussion, yet alone consensus, to a grammatically incorrect and confusing title. — Davidelit (Talk) 17:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. Should be moved back. Then if anyone feels the title is inappropriate they can explain. --Merbabu (talk) 21:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This is part of a larger effort to improve articles on Chinese Indonesians that have fallen into significant disrepair. The move serves as a precursor for material that generally discuss the nature of these regulations collectively instead of simply listing them. The term "regulation" is synonymous to "law" but further specifies it as laws that serve "to guide or prescribe the conduct" of society. Other similarly titled articles include Regulation of sport, Regulation of chemicals, and Regulation of ship pollution in the United States. Arsonal (talk) 22:08, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not a discussion about the merits of your title,and it is not an exercise in seeking “oppose” or “agree” to move it back. Rather it’s a request that due process be respected and that anyone moving a page gets a clear consensus on the talk page first. --Merbabu (talk) 23:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is a dicussion. Requested moves "may be seen as a place to advertise move debates that would benefit from wider community input". Arsonal (talk) 23:49, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I've restored it. Now, if editor/s feel that the current title "Legislation on Chinese Indonesians" should be changed, please explain why, and why any new name is better. Once agreed first, then we can move to that page. “Regulation of…” sounds like government regulation of an industry. I do not support this. --Merbabu (talk) 00:14, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hi, Merbabu, I think the title is incorrect. The law never mentioned specific ethnic, never, but it affected specific ethnic <-- fact. So it is not Legislation made for Chinese Indonesian re: Legislation on Chinese Indonesians. Serenity id (talk) 16:44, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

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