Talk:Lei tai/Archive 1

Pictures
I know this article is severely missing pictures. I've looked around and found several pictures of the famous leitai masters and even a picture of a modern Sanda fighting stage. I just need to get permission from the owners before I add them to the page! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 06:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC))

References, Citations and POV
References have been added throughout, but I'm not certain as to their relevance. The first references appears to be in support of the statement of the age of the Leitai, but the referenced article only mentions a Leitai tournament in 1929. The fifth supports the "rules" of Leitai, but the reference doesn't include any text to support this.

This kind of claim does require support - I find it unlikely that a master who was defeated on the Leitai would have his school disbanded through a departure of all the students, who would agree to such a match? what if the fight was close and he went out from the leitai being unstable? - this is also contradicted by the "champion" continuing in a "winner stays on" arrangement. Any fighter will concede that a series of fights would be likely to tire them and eventually for them to lose to a fresher, but less experienced, fighter.

It also seems unlikely that challenge fights would only be fought on Leitai - such a structure would take time to erect. There have been a few individuals in history who have been described as "travelling prize fighters" - Guo Yun Shen is one - and although these men undoubtedly had other jobs (as caravan guards etc..) it seems unlikely that they would wait around for a leitai to be constructed in order to have a fight; especially if the craftmen needed to be paid for the construction, more people being payed = less money for the fighter.

The article also needs some POV cleanup - for example "were so brutal" might be better as "resulted in so many injuries amoungst the participants". -- Medains 08:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "The first references appears to be in support of the statement of the age of the Leitai, but the referenced article only mentions a Leitai tournament in 1929."


 * 1) Read the article again. It mentions leitai first appearing within the scope of the Tang and Song dynasty info:


 * "During the Tang dynasty (618-896), and especially during the Song dynasty (960-1279), there came about many martial arts organizations throughout China?s society. There were martial arts performances with paired weapons sparring, sword and spearplays on the street. Many weapons fighting arts came down from the military to the martial arts community and schools of performing arts, physical education and sports training. Madame Sun of Tang Kaiyuan (674-741) was most famous for her intriguing swordplay performance which inspired many poets and artists. Another famous martial artist of the Tang dynasty was Xu Xuanping. His 37 Changquan was similar to traditional Taijiquan. Lei Tai (stage) bare hands fights also came into existence. There were very simple rules with a referee on the Lei Tai and judges on the sides. Many martial arts systems were also developed. Cha Quan was developed from this period on in Shangdong province. Song Dynasty brought much prosperity to martial arts especially Shaolin styles due to the Song empeor. At this period, Song Taizhu, the Emperor of Song, not only studied and taught at Shaolin, but also appointed General Gao Huailiang to reside in the temple to teach and learn."


 * Sorry, missed that in the text - it uses Leitai (without a space) later and in scanning the text for the reference I missed it. -- Medains 08:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "The fifth supports the "rules" of Leitai, but the reference doesn't include any text to support this."


 * 2) I'm assuming this "Offical Chinese Olympic Committee" website figured that everyone knew about the history of the leitai. But that is how it worked. Read about Sanda and the like in the "Modern Day" section. You will see a pattern. Today, if you get knocked off the platform, your opponent gets points, back then, you lost and he stayed on the stage until he won the championship or was defeated himself. What if a fighter set up his OWN leitai and was then defeated? The fighter who defeated him would become its "owner".


 * So you agree that the referenced link doesn't directly support the rules? -- Medains 08:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I somewhat agree with you. However, I will search the Chinese web to find better support for the "owner" issue. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC))


 * Like I put in the article, it took Chen Zhaopi and Wang Yinlin 17-18 days and at least 150-200 consecutive wins in order to establish the dominance of their style in their area. If they had been defeated, another stronger fighter would have taken their place.


 * This kind of thing is rife amoungst MA lineage oral history, whilst it may be true it is difficult or impossible to verify - most MA have some figure (sometimes but not always the founder) who was undefeatable. 150 fights in 18 days is one every 2 hours (assuming time spent sleeping each night), or one every 3 hours with no sleep - that's in the realm of superhuman, which is what the tale is meant to convey.  This would be grounds for opposition in an A-class or FA review on the verifiability rule.  -- Medains 08:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand what you are saying, but I think you are reading into this too much. From what I've read, most Leitai fights only take a few seconds. I've even read how most fights ended before they even began. Most competitors would touch hands and one would concede defeat for they could tell they weren't his advisory’s match. So defeating 20 or thirty people in a day wouldn't be that hard. Who's to say it didn't actually happen? (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC))


 * "I find it unlikely that a master who was defeated on the Leitai would have his school disbanded through a departure of all the students, who would agree to such a match?"


 * 3) Well, that was the danger of taking on the challenge or sending out a challenge. If the person won, they became famous, if not, (as the article says) they lost their credibility as a teacher and fighter. Besides the Praying Mantis founder Wang Lang, who was supposedly defeated on the leitai, every other master mentioned were champions. Notice that the names of the opponenets they defeated are barely mentioned. And I'm guessing the only names that are mentioned were also famous masters at the time. The rest not mentioned are lost to history.


 * And what about those masters who willfully joined the government-created national boxing competitions? I'm sure they were fully aware of the remafications of loosing to another master on the leitai. Everyone would want to learn from the winner not the looser.


 * The verifiability of national competitions is better, but the rewards of a national competition are also better. A local leitai would only gain local reputation, whereas the winner of a national contest (or even a finalist) would command national respect. -- Medains 08:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Granted semi-modern info from the 1920's can be varified easier, but the info about fighters setting up their own leitai's should not be overlooked. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC))


 * "It seems unlikely that they would wait around for a leitai to be constructed in order to have a fight; especially if the craftmen needed to be paid for the construction, more people being payed = less money for the fighter."


 * 4) I doubt they waited around either. That is the whole point of leitai. A person "issues" a challenge to another fighter. A person may not know if another master wants to fight him. And in regards to the building of the leitai. I'm at a loss. I don't know what they used or if it cost anything to build. I'm just going off of the information coming from the histories of such fighters as Wang yinlin and Chen Zhaopi. The info says they set up their own. So it must not have been to hard or costly to do.


 * "The article also needs some POV cleanup - for example "were so brutal" might be better as "resulted in so many injuries amoungst the participants"."


 * 5) "were so brutal" is as NPOV as it can get. People died on this platform. I tried to point out the "former" lethality of the leitai in the "History" section. The opponents didn't wear protective gear and continued even until someone died.


 * Better would be to refer to the actual incidences of death or serious injury that caused this reaction - this Leitai tournament is probably the easiest to find any information about, so should have the most data in the article. -- Medains 08:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I just recently found some background info on this Competition which I will add to the article. It mentions how several of the first people to fight were maimed and two were killed. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC))


 * I appreciate you replying to my post. Thanks. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 16:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC))


 * No problem. I seem to remember seeing in a MA magazine something about an international tournament held in the early 90's (I think it was the 7th World Kuoshu Tournament) where the leitai was surrounded by water (and there was also various internal "specialty" demonstrations like lifting a bucket of water from an eyelid!) - that might form some more substance to the article if you can find a reference.  (I can't) -- Medains 08:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't even know where to begin to look. It would be great ff you could add that info onto the "Modern day" section (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC))

New Info
I've added new info about the "Central Guoshu Institute" and rearranged the order of the page. It looks kind of messy, but I will clean it up and add even more info when I have more time. Right now, I gotta go to work. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 00:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC))


 * Some suggestions to clean up the article...


 * 1) Move the Mantis origin story into the Mantis article - the story is about what happened after the leitai, so doesn't fit well here.


 * I understand what you mean. However, I feel it should stay because his defeat on the leitai eventually led to the creation of the Mantis Fist. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC))


 * Perhaps it would be sufficient to mention that it may have led to the creation and leave the creation story for the Mantis article? -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 2) Follow the Chinese Manual of Style recommendation to remove chinese characters where you are linking to another article in which those characters are given.  This improves readability whilst ensuring that the information is available.


 * Looks like you've addressed this, cool -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 3) A picture of a Leitai would greatly improve the article.  A diagram might be ok if a picture can't be found.


 * I've found a picture of a modern day "Sanda" leitai platform, but I think it is copyrighted. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC))


 * I don't know if the MA wikiproject is active enough for you to request a picture there - either that or making requests of webmasters for free use of their images... -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 4) First paragraph about the founding of the CGI would be better in an article about the CGI.  (Although I note that it's a red link... maybe your next project? ;) )


 * 5) Would be great to have the names of the masters who were killed (and if possible, who killed them).


 * I doubt their names would be in any english sources. I was lucky to find this info. If their names were recorded, They are probably in an old tattered book sitting on a dusty shelf. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC))


 * Not so tattered, it was only 77 years ago ;) But dusty I'll agree.  Another thing to request in a wikiproject page or on some related forum elsewhere. -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 6) Why did General Li Jinglin select the masters to send?  Was it due to his position in the institute?


 * This I don't know either. I just used what info I found in the referenced articles. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC))


 * We're building up quite a list of things that need some input from elsewhere - I sense some requests to various forums in the near future ;) -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 7) Were there any deaths in the 1933 contest?  Have there been any other contests held by the CGI since?


 * 8) The distinction between professional Chinese fighters and amateur American fighters is arbitrary, it would be better to state that "under the rules of X organization, professional competitions in China require only gloves to be worn" and "under the Y organization" etc...  Since it is not really the country, but the event organizers who set the requirements.  The whole "Modern Leitai" section should reference the organizations running these events.


 * Agreed. I made the "distinction" because I read that "American" Sanda is seen as a sort of stepping stone to the Chinese league. Whatever article I read actually referred to American Sanda in passing as "amateur".(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC))


 * Still worth referring to the organizations that set the rules if you can find them. -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 9) Is Sanda always held on a Leitai, I didn't think it was.  The San Shou article mentions "most Sanda competitions held in the US" are on Leitai - this needs to be made clear in this article.


 * Chinese Sanda fights are not always in a ring. Check out thise group of pictures (pay close attention to those at the bottom. CLICK HERE (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 19:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC))


 * My point was that it's not always on Leitai either, the article implies that all Sanda is Leitai based. -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 10) "King of Sanda" is held in a ring, not on Leitai (according to the San Shou article) so is not required here.


 * Addressed -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 11) The "Benefits" needs some reference - since it is opinion from someone advocating Leitai fighting - some styles would refute this, or say that it is a benefit from any free fighting not just Leitai.


 * I referenced where I got the info from. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC))


 * I've made a slight edit to illustrate the point of view of that paragraph -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 12) Who "elected" Wang Yinlin to the Ten Tigers?


 * I don't know. This info came directly from the Wang Yinlin article and from a martial arts page. See the links in the article. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC))


 * Wang Yinlin's article suggests he was recruited, rather than elected, and notes that this group was a revolutionary group whose aim was to restore the Ming rather than a more esoteric grouping of "the best fighters in the opinion of the chinese people" that some articles would seem to imply. I also note that the WY article is unreferenced. -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I used the cited reference page for the "elected" info. Its a very short paragraph. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 00:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC))


 * 13) Chen Fake's grandfather - better information for Chen Fake's article.


 * I'm just trying to establish who these people where. Some people may not have heard of Chen Fake, but they could have heard of his grandfather. The same goes for Chen Zhaopi who was Chen Fake's nephew.


 * You don't need to establish who Chen Fake is - he has his own article to do that; Chen Zhaopi needs the relationship at the moment, since there is no distinct article about him. -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I've made the changes. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 00:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC))


 * 14) Chen Zhaopi's victories, the referenced page doesn't detail this event (except for the 17 day part) - finding the newspaper article that provoked this would be a great addition!


 * I referenced several articles for this info. I've added another link to show the numbers. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC))


 * Any ideas where we could find the newspaper article? -- Medains 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No idea. I could ask some of my chinese friends if they could search the Chinese net for me. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 00:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC))


 * 15) More references that are not part of the discussion of the lineage of a school would be better - the verifiability of these accounts are often a problem.

Merge with Lei tai

 * Support, the Lei tai article is a stub, I'm not even sure a vote is necessary :) -- Medains 10:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I originally thought the stub page had been deleted, but I recently found it. I just merged the pages. I didn't think a vote was necessary, but I was just following precedure. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor!)

Kung Fu Magazine Article
I recently corresponded via email with Mr. Gene Ching, Associate Publisher of Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine, about a separate article I am writing on the Chicken-Saber Sickle ( 鷄刀鐮) and, its cousin, the Chicken-Claw Sickle ( 鷄爪鐮). Anyway, I mentioned the Leitai article to him and he told me that the magazine publishes stuff from amateur writers and compensates them for their work. Unfortunately, they don’t publish works that have appeared in prior venues, like Wikipedia for instance. I wrote him back and said that it would be a GREAT idea for a Leitai article to appear in the magazine since Fearless (2006) came out in American theaters. I said that it sparked many peoples’ interest in the Leitai, including my own when I first saw it on dvd many months ago. I had heard of and done some research on the fighting stage prior to seeing this movie. But it was the movie that inspired me to write this article. I suggested to Mr. Ching that maybe an intern uses my article as a “Beginning” for some REAL in-depth research. I hope he takes my advise. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 23:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC))

Capital letter?
I'm glad to see this article, I just found it by accident. My teachers told me many stories about old style leitai matches, and even set up a few for us internally and with other schools for us to train for when I was younger. My main concern is that I got the feeling that in the old days it was a generic thing, a "state fair" kind of scheduled village entertainment where a school could show off or get shown up, sort of in the spirit of the lion dances. Which leads me to question whether the word "leitai" should be capitalised in the article? --Fire Star 火星 03:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I just capitalize it because that's the name. It was more than "entertainment". People fought private duels on the Leitai and many times people died. That's why in 1928, the republic band the private duels on the Leitai. If you would like to "lower-case" all the "L's" you can. Just leave it alone in the opening paragraph. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC))

unnamed
It is very important to edit on Wikipedia for everybody and universally. Your article is all about the Wushu organization. If you really want to contribute at this free encyclopedia it will be better to talk with some person who really know about the old and modern Lei Tai fighting format. Today, there is only one organization who promote the Chinese fighting style and it is The World Kuoshu Federations based in Baltimore, Maryland and the International Chinese Kuoshu Federation based in Taiwan, ROC. The style of Sanshou (Amateur) take place on the ground and professionally inside of a Boxing ring. They use also protective legs, boxing glove and headgear. It has nothing to do with Kung Fu fighting.

Please, stop to misinform people about some thing that you really don't know. Soon, The Worldwide Kuoshu organization will announce a big change in the Chinese Martial Arts communauty. This kind of Politic is really not funny and still today...

Here some website to take some information at: WWW.TWKSF.org and www.USCKF.org

F -- This unsigned comment was left by Francombat.


 * Huh? Politics? Misinformation? What in the world are you talking about? This is not a forum for Taiwanese nationalistic fervor; this is a page for discussing the betterment of the Leitai article. Your ravings about the Kuoshu Federation do NOT belong here.


 * Don't be so quick to judge. I have been collecting material to write a section on Guoshu’s connection to the Leitai. I just haven’t added it to the page yet! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 11:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC))

Ok, i'm gonna give you a advise about your language. "Taiwanese nationalistic fervor". It is not good at all to say something like this. O.K listen, i hope it was your last comment on this page and also hope that you gonna take some info before to talk like that on the net...You are not along here, and we don't have the same interest.

O.K, i'm gonna try to explain to you once again. First of all you don't know at all with who you speak. Secondly, if you want to write something about the Lei Tai, you will better to consult the right person for your article. We are not here to promote Kuoshu or Lei Tai but simply write about the organization or government who promoted the Legendary Lei Tai platform at the beginning until today...Right!!!

First of all, why do you write Kuoshu with a "G". It is a insult. Why all writting have a link with the Wushu organization. If you really want to write something about the Lei Tai, it will be better to consult the right person, as well as Grandmaster Huang, Chien-Liang, President of TWKSF. Today,      there is only the Kuoshu Federations who promote the Legendary Lei Tai platform. It is normal that you don't have pictures featuring a bout of Lei Tai, because there is only the Kuoshu who promote Chinese fighting on the Lei Tai. Whatever, this article gonna be erased soon and replaced by a global article...with picture of Lei Tai fighters, testimony...etc

I'm the new Chairman and president of new governing body for Kuoshu in Canada and also established in Beverly Hills. We are presently working to write the origine of the first organization who promoted the platform in 1928 in Nanjing. By the way, it was the nationalist government better known as Kuomintang. Kuoshu is a term that is used in Chinese as a general term for all martial arts, but specifically refers to the fighting aspect of the traditional art. The term 'Kuoshu" translates litterally as "National art" and consists of two Chinese characters "Kuo", is an abreviation of the term Kuomintang which mean Nationalist Party and "Shu", which translates into art. I'm not here to promote any thing, but only to talk about the Lei Tai Pass, present, and Future... Why in your article and research we can read anything about the organization who promote the Lei Tai as well as the World Kuoshu Federation.

F -- This unsigned comment was left by Francombat.


 * I don’t even know where to begin. Please, please, please stop ranting about the Worldwide Kuoshu organization! These articles are supposed to be written from a Neutral Point of View (both sides of the history). I will eventually add the Guoshu information when I am ready. I am not trying to favor Wushu (Sanshou) over Guoshu despite what you think. Balance is the key. It sounds like you want to totally rewrite the article and leave out the portions about Sanshou. That is unbalanced.


 * I DO NOT care what your position is in whatever orginzation that you represent. If you would like to contribute something to the article about Guoshu, please do so at anytime. But make sure you do not remove any information that pertains to Sanshou. Otherwise, stop wasting valuable space on this talk page.


 * This article is not going to be erased at all. If you would like to make huge changes to it, you must first discuss it on the talk page. If make any huge changes without doing so, I will either revert it, or, if you keep on doing it, I will have to report you to the administrators of Wikipedia. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC))

look, why did you try to write something that you don't know at all??? The management of Wikipedia all ready know about some articles writted without consultation from both organization, Wushu or Kuoshu. The point is, he asked you first, to write Kuoshu properly such as the Federation call it and you didn't. Wathever, we gonna take care about our history. We never had problem like that before. We also wrote an article in the past about the famous Lei Tai platform used until today by Kuoshu. This article was very acepted by every Wikipedia user.

Concerning all that, Mr. Francombat is the one who improve some new rules with the athletic commission in California, Quebec, New Jersey, Neveda about the Lei Tai. I think he have a better knowledge of the product as well as you have with your Watch, don't you think.

please don't reply to me as you did with my Kung Fu brother, we are not interested by some discussion like this.

Thank you for your careful attention.

Shifu Sheldon Wongs


 * Please sign all comments like this (~) . It will open a link to your user and talk page. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 11:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC))


 * "Argument from authority" (a fallacious debating technique) will not cut it here, especially since we are unable to verify your identity. Nor will personal attacks on the knowledge of others.  Wikipedia articles are developed through consensus, if you disagree with the way that an article is written - you must debate your position here and the majority consensus of opinion will hold sway.  If you continue to edit the article adding POV information without citations, administrators will be consulted and it is likely that any accounts that you create will be blocked from editing.  You obviously have some information about the subject from the "Kuoshu" point of view, so join us and create a great article instead of trying to fight to get "your way".  (Using Guoshu is not insulting, it's simply a different romanization - if we were refering to a named organization we would use the title of the organization including any specific romanization used). -- Medains 10:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * THANK YOU! If Francombat will look at the “Dimensions” section of the main article, I quote material from the International Chinese Kuoshu Federation (spelled with a “k”). When I refer to Guoshu boxing, I spell it with a “g”. I was just minding my own business when this person started accusing me of off-the-wall-things. I'm hoping he/she will step back, take a look (past their ego) at the larger picture and actually make some constructive contributions to this page. But overall, I hope he/she remembers that this is a page about the Leitai and NOT about the Worldwide Kuoshu Federation!


 * By the way, the original Lei Tai article I merged with this one was a maybe two sentences long. I actually went into more detail. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 11:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC))


 * Francombat has sunk to a new low. He is now sending me insulting messages on my “Myspace” account. If you are going to contribute anything to the Leitai page, please do. If not, delete your account and forget about Wikipedia. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC))


 * Seriously, i think you made a mistake. Don't talk like that, please...try to be more respecful next time to him.
 * O.K you still not understood our view point.
 * We don't want to talk about that with you anymore. Youwannafight

I have prematurely added some of my research into Guoshu. I will add more when I am ready. Most of the new addition came from an article from Kung Fu Magazine (it's quicker and easier that way). I plan on going into detail about the leitai bouts from the 50's. I'm still digging for info about the one in '86. Francombat, please stop making multiple accounts, You should only have one.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 02:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC))


 * Let's try to improve this article. You just violated a copyright and took info from our organization's website. Do not sumit
 * copyrighted material without permission. This article have to be writted with a neutral point of view.


 * -Please, start to spell correctly the name of one of the two organization concerned here, the "Kuoshu". (Ref: www.TWKSF.org) named by their founders. whatever the romatization, "G"ushou is not the spellation used by the Federation since is inception.


 * -I think it will be fair to put also the Kuoshu website link, don't you think. You already did with the Wushu's site (IWUF.org). Francombat 07:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Tell me what the copyright information is in the article that I took from your page. Was it the part that says "The International Chinese Kuoshu Federation uses a stage 24 x 24 ft and 16 in. high"? Because if it is, you are wrong. I got that from this page. Check the page history, you will see that this link has been on the page for quite a while. The only reason I have the IWUF.org site listed is because I used it as a source. I'm not going to post a site that I didn't use as a source. Feel free to put it in the "External links" section only if it gives the history of the leitai.


 * Those info written about Kuoshu is from Kuoshu's members or Kung Fu magazine. Whatever it is one word or two, it is
 * copyrighted material, which involved criminal problem. 69.234.21.105 11:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If I took the material from Kungfu magazine without citing it, that would be a copyright problem. But I cited it, so there is no problem here. I've even shown the article to Gene Ching, the associate publisher of the magazine and he loves it. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

You need to write a page about the history of Guoshu. Please remember that this is an article about the lei tai. Yes, the two are connected, but the lei tai is not only used by practitioners of Guoshu. It is also used by Sanda fighters as well.


 * I agree with you, it is a article on the Lei Tai which is only promoted by Kuoshu until today. They never changed the rules
 * or platform in order to be more famous or to improve professional rules.


 * Yes, it is used only by Kuoshu. Especially Sanda bout, take place into a boxing ring with almost the same rules of Kick-Boxing. Where???, When???, Who??? They have used a Lei Tai but not anymore. Since 14 years, they tried to improve Sanshou rules
 * on a platform but they never succed. Also, a lot promoter was not confortable, to promote something that the Athletic commission didn't understand as well as to throw off a opponent. 69.234.21.105 11:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The lei tai is also used by Sanda, not just Kuoshu. Look in the "Dimensions" section, you will see that it says: "The International Wushu Federation and Chinese Wushu Association commissions a lei tai platform which is 24 x 24 ft and 2 ft high. The surrounding mats are 6 ft long and 1 ft thick. It is called the "Nine Suns Mountain Sanda Lei tai." Now tell me again that Sanda doesn't use a lei tai! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC))


 * I'm not trying to split hairs, but I think I found the article that Francombat got his information from. What he said is an abridged version of the following. I'm sure you will see striking similarities:


 * "The Lei Tai quickly, and rather easily, was replaced by the the boxing ring. It was a hard decision to make but they have all cited similar reasons. The traditional Lei Tai takes hours to construct and can cost between $3000 and $5000 once materials, transportation and labor is figured in. This is a heavy burden for most promoters, especially for a stage that frequently can not be used again. How many promoters will support San Shou when they know they have to sell more than 200 tickets just to cover the stage?


 * Another reason cited is the now infamous "push out rule". Many promoters feel that attempts to push the opponent off the platform are neither understood nor appreciated by most fans. Sifu Tat Mau Wong has been quoted as saying "that doesn't look like martial arts".


 * Another concern is the safety of the competitor as they fall of the platform. Some promoters have responded by surrounding the platform with mattresses, a practice of which one coach commented "are we fighting or taking naps?". Kinder observers have noted that no matter how it is done, it never looks quite right. Proponents of the ring also don't think it will have a negative impact upon the fighting skills.


 * This article looks like it is focused on certain divsions in the United states. I've seen current U.s. fights that takes place on a lei tai. (Ghostexorcist 21:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC))

When referring to the various Kuoshu organizations, I will use a “K” but when referring to the boxing style, I will use a “g”. If you type the character in for Guo or Kuo, whatever, into a Chinese dictionary, it always comes out as “Guo”. It is name from Kuo Min Tang wich mean "Nationalist Party" 69.234.21.105 11:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Tell me what is currently not "neutral point of view" about the article. I detail both Sanshou and Goushu. It's balanced.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 08:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC))


 * I've conceded and made all the g's into k's since the organizations go by this spelling. That should be it. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 08:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

-There is nothing in IWUF's website which talk about the Lei Tai. (Ref: .IWUF.org). -It is not a boxing style but rather a different name used by the Federation to describe the Lei Tai fighting format named Kuoshu Lei Tai. -For "wushu", the name is Sanshou (the amateur format), while Sanda is the professional division, using the Kick-boxing rules with boxing ring, protective kicks and boxing headgear. Also, it is sanctioned by the International Kick-boxing federation. (Ref: www.CungLe.com or www.IGFLF.com, www.kingofsanda.net) For many reason, the wushu's promoter never wanted to promote Sanshou on the Lei Tai because of the cost of the platform and the rule which allow a fighter to throw off of the platform. Thank you to respect the correct spelling of the federation!!! Remember, i never asking you to stop writing but simply to consult both organizations about a subject that involved more than just two person. Whatever, if you really like this kind of fight, go to see by yourself a Tournament of both organization and you will see. The wushu are more involved in the sporting aspect of the chinese art than the tradition.

In conclusion, i make those comments to make a neutral point of view that you was not willing, first to write about both organizations correctly. I even asking you many time to respect to correct spelling of Kuoshu as well as the Federation named. You did.

Soon, you will be able to see and read properly some info about divers subjects such as "Kuoshu" " Kuoshu Lei Tai fighting" and the new professional format. Please, be careful with copyright, there are all right reserved worldwide. Thank you for your time and interest in Chinese Martial Arts.

Best regard 69.234.21.105 11:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Sanshou and Sanda are just names for wushu or kuoshu. But Sanda is the name for the competitions. They have a contest in china called the "King of Sanda"


 * You made those comments about NPOV ONLY after I had said them to you countless times. I had already explained that I was doing research and was going to post the material on the page when I was ready. I have also warned an administrator about your multiple accounts and they will be taking action against you. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

Concerning the administration of Wikipedia, i have already communicated with them. The point was, to change the way you written this article. You did, and everybody saw your change. That was the ultimate goal. About my personality, just the time gonna prove you that it is really me. Why??? Just to show to everyone who gonna read this article in the future, in order to see the discussion, the new addition that you did from my request.

Please don't reply to this message, We are not interested anymore.

Thank you to made the changes.

Francombat 01:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I was going to add the information to the page at some point even before you first arrived on wikipedia. Your request just speeded up the process. It's as simple as that. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

That exactly my point of view. I didn't know before to read what was the concept of Wikipedia. Everybody can write a article and take info from private website. The main goal was to see your knowledge and force you to write exactly what you found on the net. Now, you have the write correctly the name of the Kuoshu competitive format as well as you did with "Kuoshu". I invite you to go back on The Kuoshu's website and write back correctly Lei Tai today : Sanshou and "Kuoshu Lei Tai" or Kuoshu Lei Tai fighting. Yes you'r all right, It's as simple as that. Kuoshu is the name of the traditional organization not the name of the fighting style.

Francombat 05:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If you are not going to edit this page, please move along to another article that you want to critique.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 05:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

You have to write correctly the name or The World Kuoshu Federation, Everyone can read correctly on www.TWKSF.org the name of my request. I just did and you erased my contribution at this article. Do your article properly Francombat 06:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC) Again, the name of the competitive format is "Kuoshu Lei Tai fighting"


 * What I wrote was taken directly from the Kung fu Magazine article. The original author made the mistake, not me. The correct format will stay "Kuoshu". We already know that this is about the Lei tai. The two sections are just talking about the two fighting organizations that use the lei tai. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 06:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

You got my point of views and i got yours... Thank You Francombat

Rules
I have added an “External links” section with the official rules for the International Wushu Sanshou and TWKSF Kuoshu Competitions. And before you say I’m breaking copy right laws again Francombat, I’m not because It’s linked to their page. I did not display anything from the manual. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 07:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC))


 * Please, put back our discussion on the page's discussion.
 * 69.234.21.105 07:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If you look up in the right hand corner of your screen, you will see a box that says "Archives". Click the link marked "Talk:Lei tai/Archive". I had to archive the page because it was getting too big. Don't worry, I didn't delete it. That's against regulations.


 * Francombat, please sign into your user account before making new comments. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 07:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

Sorry...

What exactly your goal...with this article? You have right, you don't care about my contribution or knowledge or even my position in this Federation, don't you. Never thought, that i'm know exactly what i'm talking about.

Francombat 08:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The goal of the article is to provide an encyclopedic article about Lei Tai to the internet community. Your position and knowledge, and equally my own and ghostexoricists, do not matter not because we don't think you know what you're talking about but because wikipedia requires verifiable sources - anyone with any level of knowledge can contribute, so long as a NPOV is maintained and the information presented is verifiable through the sources.  Your position may give you access to provide references to better sources than we may be able to find though, so don't think that your contribution isn't appreciated.  You'll note that currently the article is classed as "Start", this means that we need more information and better sources.  Published books in english are the best sources, though not published sources and non-english sources are good if no english books are available. -- Medains 09:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You are right; I do not care what your position is in your organization (as you have yet to too prove otherwise). However, I do value your edits that are relevant to the subject at hand. As you will notice, I did not revert the edits made when you corrected the name of The World Kuoshu Federation. But I will continue to revert your addition of the phrase “Kuoshu Lei tai”. This is an article about the lei tai. So therefore, we already know that Sanshou and Kuoshu use a lei tai. It is not necessary to write “Kuoshu Lei tai”.


 * I have received permission from the builder of the “Nine Suns Mountain Sanda Lei tai” to embed a picture in this article. I will be adding it within the next few minutes. Francombat, I figure with your many connections, you can get us a great picture of the lei tai used in Kuoshu. So don’t complain that I didn’t use a Kuoshu Lei tai first. I’m giving you a chance to drastically improve the article. This will allow people to see what an actual lei tai looks like. Small additions like this can bump an article from “start” to “B” class! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 17:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

Kuoshu/Sanshou switch
Contrary to what Francombat might think, I did not change the Sanshou/Kuoshu order for his benefit. The change was made because the Kuoshu section introduced frames of time that predate those presented by the Sanshou section. It makes the chronology flow better. Plus, the Kuoshu section mentions the dividing line when Kuoshu and Wushu went their separate ways. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 04:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC))

It is exactly my global point of view. You don't know at all about what you tried to write!!! ...and me i didn't looking the rules and way to edit here on Wikipedia. I do respect freelance writer and waiting for a respond from Wikipedia management. On Wikipedia, If the way is to take some info from some article written on the internet or even published by great magazine, the futur will tell us...right?

Thanks to Wikipedia, for the section "discussion"

"Les dents sont dure mais elle tombe, La langue est flasque mais elle resiste." -Francombat_

As usual i let you the final word...

69.234.21.105 06:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Translation using an online translator "The teeth are hard but it falls, the language is flask but it resist". Please don't write foreign phrases here. This is English Wikipedia. As far as your other comments, I truthfully have no idea what you are talking about.


 * Please sign into your user account before making any new comments. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 06:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC))

Video Game
I found the following site a long while ago, but just recently found it again by typing in the Chinese characters for "Da Lei Tai". It's a video game set in what looks like ancient times where combats face eachother on the lei tai. I would like to add snapshots of this game to the article as it falls under the fair use rule.

http://bo.sohu.com/game/leitai.shtml

I don't know the name of it or all of its details, but I've left a request for translation on an administrator's page in the hopes they can help me gleam more material from the page.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 19:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC))


 * I've added the video game section with a few snapshots. However, I think there is a lot more involved with the game than what I wrote. There is one snapshot of the game that looks like 15-16 different lei tai's connected by roads that web out from a central starting point. Plus, there is a chart for points per lei tai. But the Babel Fish translator I use is not good enough for me to get a clear picture of what is going on. Thanks to Firestar for helping me!(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 23:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC))

More pics
I just got permission to use the water lei tai photo from Kung fu Magazine associate publisher, Gene Ching. (Ghostexorcist 20:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC))


 * I added the Fearless movie poster to the "Film" subheading under "Media". (Ghostexorcist 21:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC))

Book Refs
Can someone change the book references to use the standard Template:Cite_book? -- Medains 11:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)