Talk:Lelant

I’m new to wikipedia and I'm not entirely clear where or how to put this.

I think the box after the name Lelant, viz [Cornish Lannanta], is problematic. It’s probably a question about some other Cornwall places entries too and Lelant, a well-documented instance, is illustrative.

I’m not talking here of the varieties (UCR etc) within the revived modern Cornish language.

There is no attested citation given on the Lelant page for Lannanta (two N's in the middle), the form in the wikipedia entry, or even an explanation of why this is the chosen wikipedia form out of many.

As I understand it there is no historic text in Cornish which records the name of this place, only texts in Latin or English. These record a large variety of spellings of the name and the most common in C12 to C15 appears to be Lananta (one third-letter N), or at any rate forms with one third-letter N.

The present form with a third-letter L is found from the mid-C16, and perhaps earlier, at any rate when the parish inhabitants were still speaking Cornish, so Lelant is also Cornish for Lelant.

The saintly preface to the settlement name, Uny, is also found in a variety of forms.

The seminal work of JEB Gover (1948) The place names of Cornwall (typescript at Cornwall Record Office), recording place names in Cornwall over time, shows the serious difficulty of a simple formula “the Cornish for place x is y.” See also PAS Pool (1973) The place names of West Penwith;  he records several forms of the name of Lelant and none is Lannanta.

I don't know how all this can be concisely represented, and I realise that wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a treatise, but I do think a simple, unexplained [Cornish Lannanta] is off beam and it is better to have nothing than just that without explanation.

I have no settled view on what should be noted in wikipedia as the Cornish name for Lelant - or anywhere else in Cornwall come to that - but I do think how and why one makes one’s choice should be explained either on the Lelant page or somewhere in the encyclopedia.

Of course, I'm assuming by Cornish one means what the historic documentary evidence tells us or suggests to us rather than the one-form-of-the-name-only approach which may be appropriate to C21 name plates. Perhaps the meaning of “Cornish” (ie the language) in the place name context should be made clear. If one wishes to keep [Cornish Lannanta] I do think one should explain or refer readers on and give some acknowledgement of the variety of spelling forms of the place name.

As these non-political considerations of place names changing over time apply to many place names in Cornwall - and indeed throughout the UK - perhaps a dedicated section is needed and an explanation of how one historic name out of many is chosen for notice. Perhaps there is such a section and I haven’t found it, in which case sorry. Crococolana 15:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think either Bretagne 44 or QuartierLatin1968 would be your best bet to talk to about this - they are quite expert on this sort of thing. An explaination page sounds like a good idea though. Take care Mammal4 15:59, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I have raised here a question about the Cornish comment after the name place, eg [Cornish Lannanta]. I think this is a general Cornwall point, and possibly a point about place names anywhere in Britain, but I’m continuing it here and using Lelant as an example as it is well explored.

It is inappropriate for an encyclopedia to present a comment such as [Cornish Lannanta] without any explanation or citation. Most place names have several, and often many, attested forms and the orthography varies over time and even within the same century and same document. If only one spelling is given it should be chosen on a principle that is transparent and as universal as possible.

I have already explained that there is not, as far as I know, any example of the place name Lelant written in any spelling by Cornish speakers in a Cornish-language document outside C20-21. We are talking only about Latin-language or English- language documents.

Ideally, one could develop a part of the page giving all the known forms of the place name over time. This would be a large undertaking. An approach which is more manageable would be to give the first recorded, attested form of the place name, with the date.

I have now checked with the archivist the exact form of the place name in the first attested document in about 1170 CE. It is Lananta. I have change the entry to show this as below:

Earliest attested spelling Lananta, about year 1170. Archives of the Dean and Chapter of Exeter, Number 3672. Crococolana 20:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I have added some references to the forms of the place name.Crococolana 15:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Good work ;) Mammal4 15:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I have just been to Lelant on holiday, and the bilingual road sign does read Lannanta. Standard Written Form (see http://kernowek.net/Specification_Final_Version.pdf) suggests that Lan should be spelt Lann in a stressed position to show that some people pronounce it Ladn. So Lannanta seems to be a modern spelling derived from the original Cornish etymology.Saxmund (talk) 08:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)