Talk:Lenape/Archive 1

Comment
User:Zoe I notice that you deleted the reference I had to Kraft. Is that a wiki-style thing not to put citations in? ArloBee 13:22 20 May 2003 (UTC)

Relationship with the Iroquois and timeframe of migration to the Ohio valley
This article lacks a discussion of the relationship between the Delaware/Lenape and the Iroquois/Five Nations. "The Indian Wars of Pennsylvania", Sipe, 1931, states that the Lenape were under the dominion of the Iroquois around 1720, although the Lenape described their role as peacemakers and intermediaries. In any case, the two groups fought a war that ended with some sort of Iroquois prominence over the Lenape. This source also states that the Lenape began a migration to the Ohio valley as early as 1724, that this migration was accelerated by the swindling Walking Purchase of 1737, and that by 1776, nearly all of them had pressed westward into Ohio. "The Olden time. Vol. 1", J.W. Cook, states that during his 1753 expedition to the Ohio River, Major George Washington found the Delaware's king, Shingiss, near McKees Rocks, Pennsylvania and their queen, Aliquippa, at the mouth of the Youghiogheny River, near present-day McKeesport.

Should the discussion of their early 18th century history be amended to include the above? Tomcool 03:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm including a phrase that indicates the Lenape range included Long Island Sound and New York Bay, as well as a mention of Lenapehoking.Decumanus 01:03, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Language
I've noticed there are alot of problems with the Language section, including the incorrect translation of "Lenape" and "Lenni Lenape". The paragraph should also be put in present tense, since the language survives today, although with only a few fluent, native speakers (but there are thousands of partially fluent speakers).

As a student of the Lenape language, I feel this should be fixed and expanded upon. If no one wishes to correct this, I will try to do it myself in the coming week.--Exdaix 05:02, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Please do so! This article needs expansion, and citations as well. --Kevin Myers 23:34, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)


 * I'll edit a little tonight, and I'm going to be rather busy until the middle of next week, but I'll see what I can do. Once I learn enough Lenape, I may make a WikiBook on it... just a thought. --Exdaix 05:01, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Lenape
Lenni Lenape should be Lenii Lenape formed by two words: (1) len 'common' + ii [connective] and (2) len 'common' + apew 'people'. Lenape suggests the usual self designation of a group who call themselves simply "the people" while outsiders are given specific names. The modifier lenii probably originated after the arrival of Europeans, viewed as outsiders with respect to all the indigenous people, who were now called by the generic term Lenape. The modifier was then added to distinguish the speaker's own tribe. Anyone interested in the language can check the website < www.talk-lenape.org > sponsored by the Delaware Tribe of Oklahoma.

Walum Olum
I have included a mention of the Walam Olum because the emergence and study of it was part of scholars' attempts to understand the Lenape and their origins, regardless of whether or not it was a "hoax". I have put such mention under "19th and 20th centuries". 68.36.214.143 18:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Paterson NJ
Hello, Would anyone who has contributed to the Lenape page be interested in contributing to the Paterson NJ page? The history of the areas starts with European Americans settling the area and there are no mentions of what the area was like before that. This areas was inhabited by Lenape people.

Thank you --Javierbaires1 01:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)Javierbaires1

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

French and Indian War
Is there any special reason that this entry makes absolutely no mention of the role of the Delaware in the French and Indian War? Like, fighting on the French side after being British allies? Chief Shingas destroying Great Cove? The massacres of the settler populations? The whole war is simply ignored, which is hard to believe given the importance of the Delaware. 87.162.32.226 01:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Incorporation into the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois)

 * Is there a reason why there's no mention of the Lenape being incorporated into the Iroquois confederacy as Gantowisas? If not, I'll add it.... -- Chabuk [ T • C ] 01:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Infobox Stat for Munsee
The Infobox population number for Munsee is 400 (implying that aboriginally there were 30 times as many Unamis as Munsees, which is clearly problematic). The stat appears to be from SIL Ethnologue with a cited source I haven't been able to check (Kinkade 1991, but I know he must have taken the number from elsewhere, unless it's simply an error)). The Handbook of North American Indians Vol. 15 article on "Delaware" gives a summary of population estimates arrived at from various historical sources (p. 214, Table 1), for different eras. The Munsee numbers exclude Long Island (don't know why). For example, for AD 1600 (oldest) the numbers are 4500 Munsee and 6500 Unami = 11 000 total (bearing in mind exclusion of Long Island for Munsee). Is there more recent citable research that could improve these estimates? If not I am inclined to insert the Handbook numbers. I realize that at best any such numbers are little more than estimates. John Jomeara421 (talk) 03:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Lenape as agriculturalists
As I was reading the article, I found it strange that slash and burn agriculture was said to "extend the productive life of planted fields." This directly contradicted both my casual knowledge, as well as the statements made in the wikipedia article on this farming technique (Slash and Burn). In searching the web for a source to indicate which position was correct (i.e. either that the Lenape people performed slash and burn agriculture, or the Lenape people used a technique which extended the productive life of feilds), I came across a scholarly article dealing with the subject.

The article is entitled "Lenape Population at the Time of European Contact: Estimating Native Numbers in the Lower Delaware Valley", and was written by a Marshall Joseph Becker and published in the Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, Vol. 133, No. 2, Symposium on the Demographic History of the Philadelphia Region, 1600-1860 (Jun., 1989), pp. 112-122.

It is available on the web (freely?) at this link.

A quick read-through of this article cast doubt upon much of the third paragraph of the article. (The bulk of the introduction) Specifically, it states that the total population of the Lenape people at the time of contact was likely around 500 people, and that the Lenape people did not practice large-scale agriculture, only cultivating 'summer gardens' to supplement their traditional foraging lifestyle.

Although these statements directly challenge the current article, I had to note that the majority of the current paragraph has no citations. In particular, the comments about agriculture cite no references, and the statement about the size of the pre-contact Lenape population is taken from a general history of New York City, as opposed to a historical or anthropological study.

Clearly, the inclusion of these statements would drastically re-shape this article. However, given that they come from a peer-reviewed scholarly article (which has been cited three times, none of which seem to be refutations from what I can view for free on the web), I don't think that this discrepancy can be ignored.

I would be interested to hear opinions from anyone who is actively working on this page. I will tag the page as disputed, and get around to making the changes myself in a few weeks if no further information comes forward.

Cheers, Supasheep (talk) 22:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've read the Becker article (and various others by him), and clearly if his proposals are correct then the population density of Delaware peoples at least along the lower Delaware river had to be much lower than is generally proposed. Becker's research is primarily ethnohistorical in nature, and focused particularly on Unami Delaware people ("Lenape"). It's unclear to me whether his population density conclusions can be extended to the various Delaware groups living along the upper Delaware River or the lower Hudson - I assume that local ecological characteristics are similar but don't really know. Becker's article appears to be thorough and detailed. The population numbers given in this Wikepedia article including the Infobox are clearly out of line (the previous post on this page by me alludes to the general population stats; for a brief summary of the consensus views see the article "Delaware" by Ives Goddard in Volume 15 of the Handbook of North American Indians).


 * Unfortunately there is no one working actively on this article, and it is generally very poorly sourced, with too many unsupported assertions. It would be great if this article could be improved; I have done quite a bit of work on Delaware languages and Munsee language but haven't had the time to look at this article more carefully or spend time on it.


 * I should have added that this article gets quite a lot of traffic, so it would be nice if it were more accurate and properly sourced.

Thanks. John Jomeara421 (talk) 18:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Lenape slash-and-burn citations:
 * Stevenson W. Fletcher, Pennsylvania Agriculture and Country Life 1640-1840 (Harrisburg: Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission, 1950), 2, 35-37, 63-65, 124.


 * Day, Gordon M. “The Indian as an Ecological Factor in the Northeastern Forests.” Ecology, Vol. 34, #2 (April): 329-346.  New England and New York areas 1580-1800.  Notes that the Lenni Lenape (Delaware) tribe in New Jersey and the Massachuset tribe in Massachusetts used fire in ecosystems.1953


 * Russell, Emily W.B.	“Vegetational Change in Northern New Jersey Since 1500 A.D.: A Palynological, Vegetational and Historical Synthesis.”  Ph.D. dissertation.  New Brunswick, PA:  Rutgers University.  Author notes on page 8 that Indians often augmented lightning fires. 1979


 * Russell, Emily W.B. "Indian Set Fires in the Forests of the Northeastern United States." Ecology, Vol. 64, #1 (Feb): 78 88.  1983a  Author found no strong evidence that Indians purposely burned large areas, but they did burn small areas near their habitation sites.  Noted that the Lenna Lenape Tribe used fire.


 * "A Brief Description of New York, Formerly Called New Netherlands with the Places Thereunto Adjoining, Likewise a Brief Relation of the Customs of the Indians There." New York, NY: William Gowans.  1670.  Reprinted in 1937 by the Facsimile Text Society, Columbia University Press, New York.  Notes that the Lenni Lenape (Delaware) tribe in New Jersey used fire in ecosystems.


 * Smithsonian Institution - Handbook of North American Indians series: Handbook of North American Indians, Volume 15 - Northeast. Bruce G. Trigger (volume editor).  Washington, DC:  Smithsonian Institution. 1978 References to Indian burning for the Eastern Algonquins, Virginia Algonquins, Northern Iroquois, Huron, Mahican, and Delaware Tribes and peoples.

Shoreranger (talk) 16:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Protection?
This article has been vandalized a lot over the last few months by anonymous editors. The vandalism is generally childish, but it is culturally insensitive to the Lenape people. Also, some of the vandalism has almost snuck into the article because it doesn't get caught by the bots and it seems only a handful of editors are watching this page. Is it possible to have the page protected against anonymous editors? I think that would cut out most of the vandalism. I don't know how to formally request such a thing. -Krasnoludek (talk) 16:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Various names
The lede should clarify which names are the names the Lenape people called themselves, and which (if any) were given by European settlers, and which (if any) were later classification names given by anthropologists. "Delaware" is certainly European origin, but when did it begin being used to refer to these peoples? And did the Lenape peoples use both Lenape and Lenni Lenape to refer to themselves? -Krasnoludek (talk) 21:06, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comments
''These have been moved here from a subpage as part of a cleanup process. See Discontinuation of comments subpages.''

The second paragraph of this article has problems. It states that the Lenape lived "along the river in Pennsylvania," but doesn't say which river. Then the paragraph goes on to name some other places in Ohio where these Indians lived and still live, but the locations are hundred of miles from the region depicted on the map that appears immediately to right of the paragraph. Mmmeiss (talk) 15:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)Martin M. Meiss

Treaty of Fort Pitt
The last line of the 18th century section says "They may have been misled by an undocumented promise of a role at the head of a future Native American state". I believe it refers to the Treaty of Fort Pitt which is documented and it does promise the Lenape in Article VI the creation of a 14th state which they would lead. Whether or not if it was sincere is up to debate but my point is that it was documented. -Anonymous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.56.12.249 (talk) 06:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe you are referring to the following text from Article VI: "And it is further agreed on between the contracting parties should it for the future be found conducive for the mutual interest of both parties to invite any other tribes who have been friends to the interest of the United States, to join the present confederation, and to form a state whereof the Delaware nation shall be the head, and have a representation in Congress: Provided, nothing contained in this article to be considered as conclusive until it nneets with the approbation of Congress." It does not promise a state, it only creates the opportunity for one.  It refers to the potential "in the future" and includes the caveat that it would require "the approbation of Congress."  Perhaps the article should be more clear, but it is not inaccurate. Shoreranger (talk) 21:44, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Howdy Doody related nonsense
....That television show was broadcast from the RCA Building, in Manhattan, in New York City - which is in territory that is part of Lenapehoking (the land formerly occupied by the Lenape). Come to think of it, Ooragnak (yeah, I know, "kangaroo" spelled backwards) does sound rather Algonquin... 198.151.130.69 (talk) 18:28, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Notes about Ohio taken from the article
I place the info about former Lenape villages in Ohio in a new article: Lenape settlements. The following notes are a mess. If anyone wants to work with these they are here. -Uyvsdi (talk) 04:29, 20 July 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Notable Ohio Events and Landmarks
Gnadenhütten Massacre

The Gnadenhutten massacre, also known as the Moravian massacre, was the killing on March 8, 1782, of ninety-six Christian Lenape (Delaware) by colonial American militia from Pennsylvania during the American Revolutionary War. The incident took place at the Moravian missionary village of Gnadenhütten, Ohio, near present-day Gnadenhutten. The site of the village was preserved. A reconstructed cabin and cooper's house were built there, and a monument to the dead was erected. The village site has been listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

Crawford Expedition

The Crawford expedition, also known as the Sandusky expedition and Crawford's Defeat, was a 1782 campaign on the western front of the American Revolutionary War, and one of the final operations of the conflict. Led by Colonel William Crawford, the campaign's goal was to destroy enemy American Indian, including the Delaware towns along the Sandusky River in the Ohio Country, with the hope of ending Indian attacks on American settlers. The expedition was one in a long series of raids against enemy settlements which both sides had conducted throughout the war.

Crawford led about 500 volunteer militiamen, mostly from Pennsylvania, deep into American Indian territory, with the intention of surprising the Indians. The Indians and their British allies from Detroit had already learned of the expedition, however, and gathered a force to oppose the Americans. After a day of indecisive fighting near the Sandusky towns, the Americans found themselves surrounded and attempted to retreat. The retreat turned into a rout, but most of the Americans managed to find their way back to Pennsylvania. About 70 Americans were killed; Indian and British losses were minimal.

During the retreat, Colonel Crawford and an unknown number of his men were captured. The Indians executed many of these captives in retaliation for the Gnadenhutten massacre that occurred earlier in the year, in which about 100 peaceful Indians were murdered by Pennsylvanian militiamen. Crawford's execution was particularly brutal: he was tortured for at least two hours before being burned at the stake. His execution was widely publicized in the United States, worsening the already-strained relationship between Native Americans and European Americans.

Battle of Olentangey: June 1782

Battle Island: June 1782

Copus Settlement and Massacre: 1812

Burning of Greentown Village Site: August 1812

Pipe's Cliff

Pipe's Cliff is in Monroe Township, Richland County, Ohio, nine miles southeast of Mansfield, on the Pleasant Valley road, a short distance from the Douglass homestead.

Pipe's Cliff is named for Capt. Pipe, an Indian chieftain of pioneer times, from the fact that his sister (Onalaska) was killed upon the summit of those rocks. As the story goes, Capt. Pipe's sister was married to a young warrior named Round Head, and that after the massacre of the Indians at Gnadenhutten (1781), Round Head with his wife and child in company with several other Indians, left their Muskingum village home for the Sandusky country. The party encamped for a rest from their journey on the ledge of rocks, now known as Pipe's Cliff, and while there were fired upon by a squad of soldiers, killing Onalaska and her child, and wounding two others of the party. It is stated that the squaw was standing upon a perpendicular rock at the south end of the ledge, with her child in her arms, and that when shot, she fell from the cliff and that her body was buried at its base. When viewed from the road, this rock presents a monumental appearance, but can best be seen when the leaves are off the trees. This rock is called "Onalaska's Tower" in commemoration of her tragic death.

The squad of troops who fired upon this party belonged to Col. Broadhead's expedition against the villages of the forks of the Muskingum, known in the history as the "Coshocton campaign" and the soldiers were scouts and could not see through the thick foliage that they fired upon a woman. But, as the warriors of the party were enemies, Onalaska had to share the consequences of war with her friends with whom she was encamped.

Among the names given to different parts of Pipe's Cliff are "Dragon's Mouth", "Hanging Rock", "The Porch", "Altar Rock", "Frowning Cliff", etc. The cliff rises to a height of 100 feet above the valley and commands a fine view of the surrounding country. Around the base and sides of this ledge of rocks are caves and caverns, whose depths and lengths have never been explored. There is historical authority to confirm, in the main, the traditions of the valley concerning the death of Onalaska, as above described.

Lead v. Article
The Lead has a high level of detail that is not in the article, for instance, the lengthy description of what territory was included in the Lenape traditional areas. I recommend that more of this be moved to the article, and the Lead have a summary - for instance, that the "Lenapehoking encompassed the lower Hudson River Valley and the Delaware River areas of the mid-Atlantic states, as well as western Long Island." Parkwells (talk) 16:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Photo suggestion
The following photo is already in Wikipedia Commons, and might make an interesting addition to this article.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lenape_dancer.jpg

Description: Lenape performing traditional dance, dressed as the Mesingoholikan, an incarnation of the spirit who negotiated between people and the spirits of animals they killed.

Sorry, I don't know how to post a smaller version here. Also, I'd recommend a little cropping, but don't know if that would be proper. ~Eric F.184.76.225.106 (talk) 21:53, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

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