Talk:Lenin Peak

Article name
I'm confused too - doesn't the Tajik text of the Decree below (Source: http://www.president.tj/qaror04_297htm.htm) say that

Qullai Lenin becomes - Qullai Abūalī ibni Sino

Qullai Revolyutsiya - Qullai Istiqlol

a third peak of 6910 m height - Qullai Abūabdulloi Rūdakī  ?


 * It seems that the rename "Pik Lenina" to "Independence Peak" was incorrect. I tried to restore Pik Lenina pending clarification but I am unable to do so. I have requested admin assistance. Viewfinder 17:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have moved the article back to Lenin Peak until the name is clarified. According to my contact in Moscow, all Russian news about renaming was the same as at . We do not know why the Tajik presidential source is contrary. Maybe the Tajik factions cannot agree, and the Russian media and Tajik president are on opposing sides... Viewfinder 18:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Now the Russian text of the presidential decree No. 297 of July 4, 2006 is in under http://www.president.tj/rus/novostee_050706a.htm, also clearly stating that Lenin Peak becomes Avicenna Peak and Revolution Peak becomes Independence Peak. --Holger Finken 06:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Decree of July 4, 2006, in Tajik:

ҚАРОРИ ҲУКУМАТИ ҶУМҲУРИИ ТОҶИКИСТОН / ПОСТАНОВЛЕНИЕ ПРАВИТЕЛЬСТВО РЕСПУБЛИКИ ТАДЖИКИСТАН

аз 4 июли соли 2006 шаҳри Душанбе № 297

Дар бораи номивазкунӣ ва номгузории қуллаҳо

"... 1. Номи қуллаи ба номи Ленин, баландиаш 7134,3 м, иваз карда шуда, он қуллаи ба номи Абӯалӣ ибни Сино, номи қуллаи "Револютсия", баландиаш 6940,0 м, иваз карда шуда он қуллаи "Истиқлол", қуллаи беноми баландиаш 6910,0 м, ки 20 км дуртар аз деҳаи Рухчи ноҳияи Рӯшони Вилояти Мухтори Кӯҳистони Бадахшон ҷойгир аст, қуллаи ба номи Абӯабдуллои Рӯдакӣ номгузорӣ карда шаванд."

--Holger Finken 15:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I am confused. What is the status of the name Pik Achiktash, mentioned lower down the article? This was believed by some to be the new name for Pik Lenina. Viewfinder 14:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

no move. --  tariq abjotu  (joturner) 22:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move back to Pik Lenina
It is unclear that Independence Peak is the correct name of the peak, see a Tajik presidential web page for evidence to the contrary. Despite reports from the Russian media, I do not think we should support that name unless or until it is supported by an official Tajik source. Viewfinder 01:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~


 * Oppose. Move to Lenin Peak until second confirmation (see next section); although official tajjik page has total precedence, but the possibility of typo is not excluded. `'mikka (t) 19:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments

Name selection

 * 1) This is English wikipedia, and the name is Lenin Peak, not "Pik Lenina".
 * 2) In nacy case, the official Tajik page has precendence over all other sources.

The true problem is Avicenna here. IMO Avicenna Peak would be wrong. It is the modern proper name of the peak, and should not be latinized: Abu Ali ibn Sina Peak or Ibn Sina Peak. Also, I don't understand the reason of hurry in the renaming of the article. THe old title may live for some time until the smoke dissolves. After all, "Lenin Peak" is the preferred English name so far.

And by the way, a quite notable Independence Peak (1,742') is already known in California for quite some time. `'mikka (t) 19:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Mikka, thank you for your comments. In fact, English speakers usually prefer to use native names, although there are exceptions. We talk about Mont Blanc, or occasionally the Italian Monte Bianco but never Mount Blanc or White mountain. Still, this is unclear in this case and hopefully the name will be clarified soon. Re the proper name according to the Tajik site, if this is upheld, I suspect that English speakers will find "Abu Ali ibn Sina" a mouthful and difficult to remember, and that they will tend to "anglicize" it to Avicenna, which may become accepted as its correct name in English (like the English "Moscow", not "Moskva"). One way or another, a page "Independence Peak" will likely be upheld, even it refers to the old Pik Revolyutsii, and disambiguation will be necessary. Viewfinder 20:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I've sent an e-mail to Tajik Presindent's press office, although I have little hope for reply, but who knows... `'mikka (t) 21:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * According to an e-mail I have just received from the author of the summitpost page, who has just summited Pik Lenin (as he still calls it), there are many names in circulation, and anyway the new Tajik names, whatever they are, will not be used by the Kyrgyz authorities. He tells me that climbers even still use the name Pik Kommunizma for the Tajik (and former USSR) HP Ismail Samani Peak. It is, after all, easier to say and remember. So I think we will be sticking with the name Lenin Peak for some time. Viewfinder 22:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Dead link
The link to the Tajikistan's President web page does not produce the referenced Presidential decrees -- either in Tajik or in Russian. They must have been removed from the database during one of the updates. Can you find a "live" reference for these important facts about peak names? --Zlerman (talk) 02:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The links http://www.president.tj/qaror04_297htm.htm and http://www.president.tj/rus/novostee_050706a.htm appeared to be OK when I accessed them a moment ago.--Holger Finken (talk) 16:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I can now see the resolution clearly (in both Taijk and Russian). It was either a false alarm on my part, or they have meanwhile fixed the links. --Zlerman (talk) 06:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Naming controversy
According to the Statistical Yearbook of Tajikistan (2006 edition), Avicenna Peak (Qullai Abuali ibni Sino) is 7134 m high and Independence Peak (Qullai Istiklol) is 6974 m high. Comparison with the 1993 yearbook (published in 1995), where the Soviet names are still given, shows that Avicenna Peak (7134 m) is in fact Lenin Peak (7134 m), and that Independence Peak (6974 m) is what used to be called Revolution Peak (Qullai Inkilob, 6974 m). Since the Presidential decrees that deal with renaming are not immediately accessible on the web (see "Dead links" above), I will try to use this information from authoritative Tajik sources in order to update the relevant articles on Tajikistan mountains. --Zlerman (talk) 06:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is the official notice (http://www.president.tj/qaror04_297htm.htm):

"Номи қуллаи ба номи Ленин, баландиаш 7134,3 м, иваз карда шуда, он қуллаи ба номи Абӯалӣ ибни Сино, номи қуллаи "Револютсия", баландиаш 6940,0 м, иваз карда шуда он қуллаи "Истиқлол", қуллаи беноми баландиаш 6910,0 м, ки 20 км дуртар аз деҳаи Рухчи ноҳияи Рӯшони Вилояти Мухтори Кӯҳистони Бадахшон ҷойгир аст, қуллаи ба номи Абӯабдуллои Рӯдакӣ номгузорӣ карда шаванд. "


 * Translation: The name of the Lenin peak, 7134.3 m height, is changed to Abuali ibni Sina. The name of "Revolution Peak", 6940 m height, is changed to "Istiqlol". The noname Peak with 6910 m height which is 20 Km far from Rukhj village in Rushon district in Kohistoni Badakhshon, is named after "Abuabdulloh Rodaki".

Alefbe (talk) 16:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Lenin Peak=Avicenna Peak
We have agreed after long debates that the name of the article stays as "Lenin Peak" from considerations of accepted usage in English, although the official name of the peak as of July 4, 2006 is Avicenna Peak (or preferably Ibn Sina Peak as some have argued -- see this talk page above). Alefbe on May 15 changed the opening sentence of the article so that we now have an article called "Lenin Peak" that starts with "Avicenna Peak (...), formerly known as Lenin Peak...". This does not look logical to me: I prefer the first sentence to start with the words "Lenin Peak" -- as in the article title -- and introduce Avicenna (or Ibn Sina) later -- as in the earlier version.

Can we have some discussion on this? --Zlerman (talk) 02:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm in favor of moving the page to "Avicenna Peak". In naming peaks, montains, cities, ..., the common tradition of encyclopedias (as well as news agencies) is to follow the official name. That's why we use "Chennai" and "Mumbai" for the two Indian cities (while "Madras" and "Bombai" are still more common in English books). About the old discussion, not many users have participated in that discussion (there is only one vote). I'll request the move again. I think we should be consistent with the common tradition of encyclopedias and news agencies. Alefbe (talk) 02:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I strongly oppose yet another move from Lenin Peak to Avicenna Peak. We have enough confusion in en:wiki and in all the interwikis as it is. Also note the argument raised above in favor of using Ibn Sina Peak instead of Avicenna Peak. But this is not what I have put up for discussion. The question is simply one of style: is it logical to have the first sentence in an article named "Lenin Peak" start with "Avicenna Peak", as Alefbe changed on May 15? Both Avicenna Peak and Ibn Sina Peak should be mentioned in the article (and in fact they are), but what do we put for the first two words in an article named "Lenin Peak"? Lenin Peak or Avicenna Peak? Could we have some opinions on this, not just from Zlerman and Alefbe, but from other editors as well?--Zlerman (talk) 03:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Both the names are included at the beginning. For a more concise enyclopaedic view the official name should be given as the title. The redirect also for Lenin Peak comes here. I wouldn't say it is logical to have Lenin Peak as the title. LOTRrules (talk) 17:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Picture: trail Irkeshtam–Sary Tash (Tajikistan)
The picture "Lenin Peak from the trail Irkeshtam–Sary Tash (Tajikistan)" is take in Kyrgyzstan. The Sary Tash village is in Kyrgyzstan, on the way Osh-Irkhestam.(..I'm italian) --Betta27 (talk) 07:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Ibn Sina Peak or Lenin Peak?
The article was moved from Lenin Peak to Ibn Sina Peak without any discussion on 16:59, 21 September 2008 by a user who has since been banned indefinitely. There is no question that Lenin Peak is the more widely accepted name in English. Moreover, on a recent trip to Kyrgyzstan, I discovered that the Kyrgyz continue to refer to it as Lenin Peak (actually claiming it as theirs) and latest official maps of Kyrgyzstan show the mountain as Lenin Peak. Since the name Ibn Sina Peak comes unilaterally from Tajik legislation and reflects neither Kyrgyz views nor common English usage, I propose to move the article back from Ibn Sina Peak to Lenin Peak (with a redirect from Ibn Sina Peak to Lenin Peak).

Please discuss below (Support/Oppose): Lenin Peak is official name used in Kyrgystan, and this name is well known in World. So, there're no condition for change article' name to Ibn Sina Peak. Aotearoa (talk) 07:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. The Lenin peak belongs to both countries, and in Kyrgyz side it is still Lenin peak, İ'm gonna change the name from

ibn sina peak to lenin peak. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.187.171.152 (talk) 10:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:45, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Ibn Sina Peak → Lenin Peak — The name of the peak has been Lenin Peak for decades, and is still the most used name in English. The official name of the peak in Kyrgyzstan is still Lenin Peak (peak lies on the border between Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan). "Ibn Sina Peak" name is only used in Tajikistan. Vanjagenije (talk) 00:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Support If the peak is on the border between 2 countries then I'm not sure how we decide which one is the "official" name, but if one of the 2 countries still uses the name by which it was normally known in English over the past few decades then we should go for this name. PatGallacher (talk) 00:38, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Support After reading all past discussions on this issue, I support the rename for these reasons:
 * 1) the rename done back in Sept 2008 was without consensus. The fact that it was performed by a now banned user gives an impression of a POV edit.
 * 2) Lenin Peak is the more widely known English name of the peak and is apparently still in use by one of the two countries. It would be interesting to see what various official maps of the area have on them for the name of this peak.

The other names can of course be mentioned in the opening paragraph and perhaps we use Ibn Sina Peak as the other name for the infobox. RedWolf (talk) 06:50, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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