Talk:Lennox Lewis/Archive 1

Untitled
"Lewis, ..., faced Vitaly Klitschko instead, knocking him out in six rounds to retain the title."

That sounds biased towards Lewis... Klitschko suffered gashes and was later on disallowed to continue by the ring doctor (being ahead by points). So Lewis didn't really knock out Klitschko.

It is a knockout by the rules. The fight goes down as a TKO-Technical Knockout. You have a point though, perhaps mention could be made of the fact that he was trailing in the fight when it was stopped due to a cut above Kilitschko's eye inflicted by a punch by Lewis. If it was inflicted by an accidental headbutt they go to the scorecards and Klitschko wins so you have to mention it was inflicted by a punch from Lewis.Quadzilla99 08:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I put a more factual account in there when I edited the article. John

Although Lewis didn't lay Klitschko on the canvas, he did win by knockout. Confusing, ah? Not to us who understand boxing's rules. When the referee stops the fight, it is a knockout most of the time. Just like an inside the park home run in baseball or a goaltending in basketball:

Antonio wheres my head? Martin
 * The fight was a TKO, which isn't the same as a KO. TKO can be allsorts, ref stopping the fight, corner throwing towel in, fighter going down three times and fight ending on 3 KD rule..allsorts. KO is always that, a knockout, fighter down for ten count. Orbtastic 01:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

How can he be both the 21st and 22nd WBC Heavyweight Champions (with Rahman in-between)? Good point. I fixed it.--SaskatchewanSenator 20:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Lennox Lewis knew the rules and won by TKO, I would have to say that Klitscko's cutmen was really terrible, they were making Vitali's cut worse and worse during the fight. But that doesn't make Klitschko's performance heartworthy and less determined, but his cutmen were logically making the cut worse round by round. --User:Maya Levy 3:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.255.28.81 (talk)

I watched the fight and was horrified as the cut happened and Klitschko started to bleed heavily. The following two rounds were the only ones won by Lewis. BUT then the cutman got his shit together and the bleeding was mostly stopped. Not only Klitschko and I but also many other spectators and commentators were astonished and confused when the ref stopped the fight.79.196.254.22 (talk) 21:28, 12 August 2011 (UTC)]Just Found the fight on Youtube: Have to agree with above comment by 72.255.28.81 regarding cutman who worsened the situation. But the point is this: the slomo shows that Lewis caused the cut with a headbutt. Klitschko should have been declared the winner and I guess that Lewis knew and knows this so that he would never ever get into the ring again....79.196.254.22 (talk) 22:45, 12 August 2011 (UTC)]

If you had watched the fight properly you would of noticed it was the right hand at the start of round 3 by Lewis that busted his face open, the cutmen's efforts were futile to say the least and the fight was rightfully stopped, theres no mention at all of a headbutt, Klitschko was ahead of points but Lewis had him looking like John Merrick, say what you want but Lewis still at his worst (being 38 and his heaviest) still beat a prime Vitali.125.236.54.18 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC).

One of the top five heavyweights of all time?
The phrase "...is regarded by many to be one the top five greatest heavyweights of all time" is not substantiated. Regarded this way by how many people? Where does he appear in the "best of all time" media rankings? Here are five heavyweights: Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, George Foreman... is he really better than any of these boxers? No. But the point is that this statement is just not substantiated. It should be replaced by a statement like "...is ranked in the top five by the boxing historian so-and-so" or "...was voted as a top five heavywieght by the readers of ring magazine." (Neither of these statements are true, of course.) 69.231.80.104 05:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)Derek

You are expressing personal opinion too, when you say that 'no' he is not better than those 5 AMERICAN fighters. The phrase you mention is long deleted, probably because they are 'weasel words'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.133.146.60 (talk) 12:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Personally I don't like putting that phrase for anyone. Too much bias. Among the top heavyweights of all time, or considered one of the greatest heavyweights is usually appropriate. Maya Levy 06:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

English immigrant to Canada?
Lewis is categorized as an English immigrant to Canada, but it sounds like he was instead a Jamaican emigrant to Canada, then a Canadian immigrant to the UK. Does this characterization make sense, or am I misunderstanding the text? --Saforrest 01:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * He was born in England, then moved to Canada, fitting the category: English immigrants to Canada. I've never seen anything indicating that he lived in Jamaica.


 * Canadian immigrant to the UK? His primary residence after he began his professional boxing career is not clear.  He owns homes in Canada, the UK and USA.--SaskatchewanSenator 02:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

He has Jamaican ancestry, like many English blacks, but he's not from Jamaica. He was born in England, moved to Canada and fought his amateur career under a Canadian flag, then moved back to England to turn pro. I have it all in "The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Boxing." Holymolytree2 14:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

i've never heard of 'one eared willy' as a nickname for lennox lewis - is there any backup for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.20.14 (talk) 20:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View
Removed the non-neutral point of view comment "..he was too much of a gutless coward, and ..." Camcurwood 15:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Lead Paragraph
I don't think the duality of his nationality is notable enough to be in the lead paragraph. The sentence "Lewis often referred to himself as "the pugilist specialist"." doesn't seem to belong in the lead paragraph either.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 22:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

chump
come on did lewis not retire because he knew in the first fight against vitaly he knew he would have lost if it was not for the cut ,so instead of lewis suffering a loss he just retired because he knew he could not beat vitaly--Wikiscribe (talk) 22:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly my opinion, too. The tko was a godsend to Lewis and there was no way that he would ever enter the ring with a Klitschko again. You could see it in the fight when Lewis hit Klitschko really hard after the cut, but Klitschko just shrugged it off. Lewis just couldn't believe it and got desperate. The third round after the cut Klitschko had quite recovered and I was convinced that Lewis would go down next or round after next and I was shocked when the fight was stopped. Unfortunately I don't have the fight on video and never saw a rerun, but one commentator said that the cut was not from a hit with the gloves but from a headbutt which would mean that the fight should have gone to Klitschko. I'm no expert and can't comment on that, but there should have been a rematch anyway. Pity that Lennox Lewis is a coward.79.196.254.22 (talk) 21:28, 12 August 2011 (UTC)]

Zeljko Mavrovic
"Lewis stated in 2006 that his fight with Mavrovic was the toughest of his career."

If this is the source for this statement, it is misleading.

On his most awkward win: "It would have to be Zeljko Mavrovic. They put us in the ring where the lights were burning my head. That’s how hot it was. It was like a sauna. It was a difficult because he was moving around. It was awkward. This guy trained two years just for me. This is who he wanted to box."--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 05:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

After Tyson's win, however, he [Tyson] refused to defend against Lewis, and the WBC title was declared vacant.
Tantalising sentence, may leave readers needing to look beyond the article to do more research. It would not take much amending to provide a comprehensive explanation e.g. 'After Tyson's win, he [Tyson] refused to defend against Lewis opting instead for the bigger box office potential of facing Evander Holyfield, and the WBC title was declared vacant.

Just an idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.135.28.86 (talk) 11:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Marciano
Marciano was undefeated so how could he retire, as this article puts it, able to avenge a defeat? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.173.119.59 (talk) 09:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "no unavenged defeats" applies to Marciano even though, unlike the other two, "unavenged" is unnecessary when describing Marciano's record.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What is a "4.85 PPV buyrate"?
From Lewis vs. Tyson. What does that mean? What is the source? --SaskatchewanSenator (talk • contribs) 07:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I removed it.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

British/Canadian
How can he be CANADIAN just because he lived there. I live in China, but I am not Chinese. Lewis was born in England, therefore he IS British. No Canadian birthright, no Canadian bloodline, he is NOT Canadian. Get over it Canada. You can keep Greg Rusedski though - even though his Mum is English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.35.167.99 (talk) 01:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not that hard for any one from the UK to move to any other Commonwealth country. My cousin was born in the UK and came to Canada when he was about 10, both of his parents were Scotish and did not have "Canadian bloodline". He has had his Canadian citizenship for a long time, and I'm sure if any one asked him that he would say he's a Canadian.--JB (talk) 21:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "no Canadian bloodline" - no British or English bloodline either!--Vintagekits (talk) 23:06, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Retirement
Perhaps his status as one of a few reigning champs to retire with no comeback could be incorporated.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Avenged defeats
Ingemar Johansson did not avenge his two defeats to Floyd Patterson. He beat Patterson in their first fght.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 22:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The current wording ("he is one of three world heavyweight champions to have retired after defeating every opponent he had faced") is incorrect because Patterson  Johansson also defeated every opponent he faced. I prefer "no unavenged defeats."--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Please show me the record of the fight where Patterson beat Ali and I'll agree with you. --LiamE (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops. I meant Johansson.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 10:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yup I see what you are getting at. Both Lewis and Johansson beat every man they faced but Ingemar did not avenge his defeats to Patterson. Feel free to change the article appropriately. --LiamE (talk) 14:31, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * By the way I figure the other two are Marciano and Bowe... are we sure there are no others? --LiamE (talk) 14:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bowe isn't retired yet.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:26, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * removed Category:Articles which may no longer need images and reqphoto|artists and entertainers}} requested by --Friends007 16:07, 27 December 2008 (UTC) Mpaa (talk) 23:56, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Lewis' 2008 comments on Bowe
The quote in the Hanging up the gloves section is from an article titled Lewis lays rumors of return to rest once and for all and, in my opinion, his offer to "come out of retirement" to fight Bowe is not serious. I think, without more context, it is misleading.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 06:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Best heavyweight of all time
For balance, the article needs an opposing view to Foreman's quote about Lewis being the best heavyweight of all time.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:30, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit dispute regarding what nationality to list him as
There seems to be confusion whether to list him as british, canadian or british/canadian, or british/canadian/jamaican. In view of this i found three sources, taken decades apart, that explicitly state he self identifies as british/english

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/forum/566535.stm Jim Cornall, Canada but originally English: Now that I live in Canada, you are usually here referred to as: "Canadian Lennox Lewis who now lives in England." How do you feel about this? Do you consider yourself completely English now?

Lennox Lewis: I have always been English, ever since I emigrated from England and since the kids in Canada beat me up at the age of twelve for having an East London Cockney accent. I thank them for the cockney taunts because the beatings turned me on to boxing. But on a serious note Canada has been kind to me.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article3300963.ece "“My mum took me to Canada when I was 12, but I am British in my heart."

It going beyond the absurd when a man openly declares his national identity on more than one occasion, years apart yet wikipedia 'tells him' (assuming he reads it) what his identity actually is. He was born in the UK his mother moved to canada when he was young; as far back as the bruno fight he stated he was british and moved to canada because his mother moved there

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/10/sports/boxing-bruno-vs-lewis-a-personal-battle-of-britain.html Lewis snarled when told that Bruno hardly considers him a fellow-Briton. Lewis left his native England when he was 12 to move to Canada.

"What was I supposed to do? Not follow my mother to Canada?" asked the 26-year-old Lewis.

He may well have dual nationality, but that doesn't alter how wikipedia should list him. Numerous precedents have already been set by south american football players who hold spanish/italian passports whilst still being labelled as argentinian/brazilian (see messi/ronaldinho etc).Zaq12wsx (talk) 06:49, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Mr. Lewis is not a football player, so any consensus they have for listing players' nationalities does not apply here.


 * Those comments about his Britishness may be notable, but it is not justification for excluding his other nationality. The article should reflect what reliable sources have said about his nationality.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 09:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes but the precedent has already been set with regards to sportsmen/women. Regardless Wiki can take it as reliable fact when someone explicitly says, on more than one occasion and at least 15 years apart that they consider themselves to be british.Zaq12wsx (talk) 07:28, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no consensus to exclude a sportsperson's dual nationality from an infobox or any other part of an article. No one is disputing that he is British, but he is also Canadian.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 10:29, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Says whom? This again returns to the point that he himself, on more than one occasion at least 15 years apart has expressed what his national identity is. It is absurd for the article to state something contrary to that.Zaq12wsx (talk) 00:08, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Says the Daily Telegraph, for example, in the reference you removed from the article. Wikipedia is based on what reliable, published sources have said about the subject.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 09:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough in keeping with whats already been done with lionel messi's page and given his own decelerations on the matter im going to amend the article to say his is british with dual canadian citizenship, everyone can then read about his own feelings of self identification in the article. Im deleting the nationality tag on the info box as its pointless to argue over it and start listing british/canadian or canadian/british etc.  That nationality entry is also left out of lionel messi's article.Zaq12wsx (talk) 05:35, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It is not appropriate to delete the nationality field from Lennox's infobox because you don't want to see 'Canadian' there. FYI, nationality is not left out of Messi's infobox, it is not a field in the football biography infobox.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 20:42, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems I'm late to the party here but I think 'British with Canadian dual-citizenship' would be a suitable compromise' I strongly feel British-Canadian would not be appropriate as that suggests he has British ancestry but is now considered as Canadian (in the same way Irish-American or Italian-American are used) Zarcadia (talk) 17:25, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * SaskatchewanSenator. Can you show where in the history Zaq12wsx deleted the word ‘Canadian’? Also I don’t appreciate comments being entered above my own on a talk page. Fair enough if you want to respond to Zaq12wsx but it would be considered good manners to respond to my comment as well. Generally on Wikipedia we place a comment underneath the last one. Zarcadia (talk) 22:52, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Zarcadia to be fair i did remove the word 'Canadian' from the nationality infobox, as well as subsequently removing the nationality entry from the infobox; i felt a listing of British/Canadian could either be misleading (for the reasons you stated above) or an unnecessary source of edit conflict (which is why i removed it). I see its now been restored by Jimbo Online to 'British'.  To avoid aggravation i won't edit that bit of the article until consensus has been achieved.
 * I know SaskatchewanSenator disagrees but i really do think Wiki should be consistent and keep the precedence set in football. A significant number of South American footballers (apart from Messi and Ronaldinho mentioned above see also Cafu, Veron, Zabaleta, Heinze, Zanetti, Crespo etc etc) take Italian or Spanish citizenship and their articles state their place of birth whilst leaving nationality out of the info box.  However i accept that editing the actual field on an infobox can be seen as badform, and as i said ill refrain from editing it.Zaq12wsx (talk) 05:52, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The comparison with footballers is not valid because there has been no decision to leave nationality out of the infoboxes of footballers with multiple nationalities. Nationality is not a field in the football biography infobox.
 * No one has suggested listing him as British-Canadian or British/Canadian. He should be listed as British and Canadian. That is in no way misleading.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:17, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

He's British. GoodDay (talk) 03:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * He sure is. Canadian too.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 09:18, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Since all the arguments for removing nationality from the infobox were refuted, I'm going to restore it to the way it was before this discussion began.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 06:42, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

This is unbelievable, i have been nothing but courteous and have both opened up this matter to discussion and refrained from editing the infobox as i said, but SaskatchewanSenator waits until the matter has apparently died down before re-editing (the opening paragraph in particular) to whatever agenda suits him.

He is a british boxer who also holds dual nationality.

SaskatchewanSenator if you keep trying to edit in such an underhand manner (for what possible purpose? we're obviously eventually going to read it and see what you've done); ill invite a full blown discussion of whats happening.Zaq12wsx (talk) 19:15, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Right ive requested Editor assistance, for those editors reading i suggest the following opening paragraph

"Lennox Claudius Lewis, CM, CBE (born September 2, 1965) is a retired British boxer and the most recent Undisputed World Heavyweight Champion. He also holds dual Canadian citizenship. As an amateur he won gold representing Canada at the 1988 Olympic Games after defeating future World Heavyweight Champion Riddick Bowe in the final."


 * whilst SaskatchewanSenator suggests

"Lennox Claudius Lewis, CM, CBE (born September 2, 1965) is a retired boxer and the most recent Undisputed World Heavyweight Champion. He holds dual British and Canadian citizenship. As an amateur he won gold representing Canada at the 1988 Olympic Games after defeating future World Heavyweight Champion Riddick Bowe in the final."
 * Zaq12wsx (talk) 19:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Fervent Brit disclaimer. The latter form of words proposed by SaskatchewanSenator seems to me to be the best solution. – ukexpat (talk) 22:33, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Should we also refer to Lionel Messi as 'being a dual Argentine and Spanish national' or as Argentinian with dual Spanish nationality?Zaq12wsx (talk) 09:06, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * This same argument takes place all over Wikipedia for many athletes. The answer is simple - Lennox Lewis is a British national and also has British citizenship. Canadian is his secondary citizenship, and this really only applies to his Olympic career, as his notability as a Canadian stems from his participation in the 1984 and 1988 Olympic games. However anything he did as a professional boxer should have the British flag, as he was British from this point forward and no longer living in Canada or representing Canada in any way. Per the article, he "declared himself a professional boxer and moved back to his native England".
 * For the opening paragraph, per WP:OPENPARA"previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability" - since in this case Lewis did represent Canada at the Olympics and would have a Wikipedia article even if he never turned pro or became Champ, his Canadian citizenship can, and should be mentioned in the opening paragraph, however his current and primary citizenship is British. --Yankees 76 Talk 21:57, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What is a primary citizenship?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 23:03, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Professional boxing record
19michael1990 (talk | contribs) has been making some changes to the Professional boxing record section.


 * Notes - Some of the additions to the Notes column are good, but there are some problems. For example: the wording "monstrous right hand" is not the right tone for Wikipedia, "Lewis was undertrained" is an unattributed opinion.
 * Time of stoppage was removed. I would like to see this information kept.
 * I preferred the previous format for indicating titles being vacated, awarded etc. outside the ring.

On the whole, I don't think the changes are an improvement. Perhaps some of the info from the notes can be added to the old table.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:41, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Overlinking
There are too many links added to the article. The Manual of Style has guidelines (See: WP:Overlink) against many of these links.--Jahalive (talk) 22:18, 9 March 2012 (UTC)