Talk:Lenora Fulani

Untitled
Just thought I'd weigh in because this was a recent anonymous contribution at some length: I'm familiar with Fulani, and at a quick read this looks basically on the mark. -- Jmabel 06:23, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Removal explanation
The heading is /*Early Life*/ and yet it appears the introductory POV is attempting to bring a negative impression of Ms. Fulani, specifically by going on a tangent of Mr. Newman, Mr. LaRouche, and Social Therapy. I proposed cleaning this up a bit so it's more NPOV. Thanks


 * Sorry, it's completely relevant, as it goes to the core of Fulani's political involvement. And you need to read NPOV policy if you think this violates it. All of what you are removing are well-established facts, presenting in an objective and even-handed manner. RadicalSubversiv E 20:24, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Follow-up

 * I must disagree. I see a repeat of the unproven slander put out by her political enemies. Addionally, the "core" of Fulani's political movement is subject to interpretation, and I see her as a positive influence in the development an independent political movement.


 * Mr. D--Mr D 03:48, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * You're free to believe whatever you want about Fulani. You're not free to remove facts from Wikipedia articles. If you can provide reasonable evidence that casts this information into doubt, you can add that. If you think the phrasing or presentation is in some way inaccurate or violates Neutral point of view, that's up for discussion. But removing material outright because you think it portrays Fulani in an unflattering light is unacceptable, and will continue to be reverted. RadicalSubversiv E 04:06, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Competing introductions
Moved here from the article:


 * Admirer's Introduction


 * Dr. Fulani's political career is very closely connected with her mentor Fred Newman, a controversial psychotherapist and political activist. They met in the late '70s and have worked together as political partners on various projects. Dr. Fulani ran for President in 1988 and 1992, and was the first woman and first black candidate to obtain ballot access in all 50 states.  Her court cases challenging state ballot access laws were instrumental in laying the groudwork for subsequent independent campaigns, most notably Ross Perot in 1992.  She helped build the New York Independence Party, the third largest political party in New York State with 225,000 registered members as of 2004. Dr. Fulani and the New York Independence Party is credited with providing Republican Mayor Michael Bloomberg his margin of victory over Democrat candidate Mark J. Green. Her top political concerns include political oppression of black people, the abuses of the Democratic and Republican Party, and racial equality and gay rights.

On Wikipedia, we strive to accurately characterize information by using a single neutral point of view, which is arrived at through cooperation, not by simply adding our own individual points-of-view to articles we dislike. You might be interested in Wikinfo, a similar project which exists to present multiple POV versions of the same article. RadicalSubversiv E 22:02, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Follow up on Competing Introductions
The problem is your point of view is not neutral by any defination of the word -- your entries have a political axe to grind, therefore biased, and violate the spirit of NPOV. Additionally -- you don't own the "truth" about Fulani and there are many sides to her story; one of which the wild slander attacks are a reaction to her effectiveness as a 3rd party builder. I offer a perspective that balances out your presentation of Dr. Fulani, et al and brings this Wikipedia entry closer to NPOV. So what do you want to do now? I'm not going away to Wikiinfo. --Mr D 22:48, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * First, they're not "my entries"; I hadn't made a single edit to this article until you arrived. All I have done is restore material that you removed, and removed your alternate version, which violates policy. Secondly, NPOV is not about the motivations of the contributors -- it is about whether the material is accurate and presented in a neutral manner. You are correct that there are many sides to a story; our role is to present facts as facts and opinions as opinions. If you have facts you want to add, preferably along with citations, feel free to do that. If there are things stated as facts in the article you believe not to be true, provide evidence.


 * If you want to present the opinions of Fulani's followers, you are also free to do that, provided that they are stated as such. For example, you might write, "In the eyes of her supporters, Fulani is an effective 3rd party builder," which might then be balanced with something like "Meanwhile, her critics contend ...". It's even better if you can provide specific ciations.


 * RadicalSubversiv E 23:15, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's helpful, thanks.

Question. How does my alternate introduction for Fulani violate policy, and your entry of "anti-newman" external link (on the Fred Newman page) in accordance with policy? --Mr D 13:32, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry for not responding to this sooner, I've been tied up with another matter. Your alternate introduction violates policy on two fronts. First, your text is not NPOV. Second, as I tried to explain above, Wikipedia articles are to be written as a single, coherent, NPOV article, not to branch off into competing versions.
 * As to the Newman link, Wikipedia articles may link to a wide variety of outside sources of varying POVs -- the general notion is to get a good, representative sampling of all sides of an issue. You'll see this on lots of articles about controversial subjects. RadicalSubversiv E 13:28, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Having come here because of the RfC, I've made some edits to the article, but generally I'd consider it OK. I agree with RadicalSubversiv E that the "admirer's" lead section is not acceptable.  The point about the numbers in the 2001 mayoral election is correct, however, so I'll add that (although not in the lead -- it's not that important because the odds are that Bloomberg would have won anyway). JamesMLane 09:15, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Independence Party
I've created an article on the Independence Party of New York. Either that article or this one would benefit from more information about the Fulani "takeover" of the party. I don't know all the details, but I gather that the Fulani faction, although it failed to deny Golisano the 2002 nomination, has now decisively ousted the Golisano faction and the other people who were involved in the party's founding. There's a website at that reflects the Reform Party/Perot orientation, but it also says: "This site is no longer the 'official' site of the Independence Party. We are not aware of an official web site at this time." It seems like a reasonable speculation that the Fulani faction took over and de-certified (or whatever you'd call it) the old website, but that's just a guess. JamesMLane 00:57, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

New text
Jmabel's done a good job, as usual, at coming up with reasonably accurate and NPOV language. I have two relatively minor concerns:


 * "She stands out from other prominent African American political figures by having remained independent of the two major parties." This borders on POV, and I don't think it serves any major informative purpose. Certainly there have been plenty of other black political leaders who've been active in independent and third-party efforts (Angela Davis, Eldridge Cleaver, Cornel West, Mel King, etc.). Also, the implication that Fulani is prominent is somewhat dubious.


 * I think the CUIP can safely be described as Fulani's organization, rather than merely one with which she is affiliated.

RadicalSubversiv E


 * I would not object to either of the changes implied by your remarks, edit away. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:48, September 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * At the beginning of the section on Fulani's electoral activities, I removed the sentence about her being on the ballot in all 50 states, because this merely repeated what was already said in the introduction. Also I removed the adjective about Fulani's "post-graduate" training at the New York Institute for Social Therapy and merely described it as training. Fulani is a developmental psychologist and the institute did not offer development psychology post-graduate work. Furthermore, it was not an accredited institution of higher education and was not even recognized as an educational entity by the NYS Board of Regents at that time. Fulani may very well have obtained legitimate post-graduate training in development psych somewhere else, and if so that fact should be added to this article. The rest of the changes or additions are pretty much self-explanatory.--November 23, 2005.

Ballot access
This edit, from an anon IP with no previous edits asserts that her claim of having been on the ballot in all 50 states is false. Since it cites no source and gives no indication of what state's ballot she may not have made, I don't know quite what to do with it. I've tried to contact the IP, but under the circumstances, the odds aren't very good. If no one responds in the next day or so, and if we don't find an independent source, I think we should restore the prior statement, but with citation of this being a claim on her own site or that of an organization to which she is tied. - Jmabel | Talk 06:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Having gotten no response, and having found confirmation of the claim from a source hostile to Fulani as well, I've restored, with citation. - Jmabel | Talk 01:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There's three different questions involved: (1) was she on the ballot in all 50 states, and if so was she the (2) first woman and (3) first african american to do so. I don't know.  I think it's OK with the citation as now, but if I find a better source to conform or deny it, I'll make the edit. Schizombie 02:22, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Fulani and the psychology of Fred Newman
I tightened up the description of Newman's psychological ideas. Yes, he did advocate a "dictatorship of the proletarian ego," not just a "proletarian ego," in Power and Authority, so why sanitize it? The idea that this sophomoric stuff constitutes a "classical Marx/Freud synthesis" is absurd and I removed this phrase. (It should be noted that the chief authority cited in the introduction to Power and Authority was Lyndon LaRouche rather than Freud or Marx.) I also altered the phrasing that seemed to take seriously Newman's claim to the mantles of Vygotsky and Wittgenstein. Newman is not a serious academic nor is he a real psychologist. He has no training in psychological research methods (unlike Vygotsky) and has never done any research in the field of developmental psychology that he pontificates about. His "theories" about therapy include the assertion that having sex with one's patients is beneficial to their health. Anyone who bothers to peruse his self-published non-peer-reviewed books such as Let's Develop can see that this is not a serious person. He is a classic narcissistic sect leader whose "ideas" revolve around how to manipulate his followers, including Fulani. - 13 March 2005


 * Great work by both anons who recently contributed to this. Really strengthens the article. Please, open accounts so people can more easily communicate with you and so that your various contributions can be related to one another. - Jmabel | Talk 19:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The March 13 author obviously is not expressing an NPOV approach to Newman (who is not the subject of this entry in any case). Newman does not "claim to the mantles of Vygotsky and Wittgenstein," but to deny that the approach does indeed incorporate these authors is simply inaccurate. If the manner in which their work is incorporated is in question, then that should be discussed, and references, perhaps, to how it is misued from other scholars in the field would be appropriate, rather than a diatribe without substance. I will not challenge "purported" at this time, although was simply inserted there for no other reason than malice. Within the sub-field of Vygotsky scholars, Newman, and in particular his associate Lois Holzman, are recognized as important contributors and practioners. As to March 13's claim that Newman's theory includes "the assertion that having sex with one's patients is beneficial to their health," this seems flagrantly false (reference?) and indicative of the rather angry and biased tone of March 13's notes. [UNDATED] REPLY: March 13 put her or his personal POV in the discussion section, not the article. -- 21 March 2006

1988 running mate
This Alaskan page gives her running mate as "Burke" http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:_8EMDKy_3IYJ:www.gov.state.ak.us/ltgov/elections/partysta.htm I had thought her running mate was Joyce Dattner. Did she have more than one running mate in 1988? Esquizombi 10:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Fulani had different running mates in different states in 1988. There were at least three of these Veep candidates, and may have been more. The information for researching and correcting the sentence about this can probably be founded in the web archive at. -- 16 March 2006

This page: http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/1999-08-11/music4_2.html says Dattner was one of six VP candidates in 1988. This article http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/talking_politics/documents/03521598.asp says the same thing, with Dattner herself saying "I was actually one of her vice-presidential candidates in 1988."
 * 1) Joyce Dattner: AL, FL, IA, MD, NV, NY, OH
 * 2) ? Burke: AK
 * 3) ? Harold Moore: OR
 * 4) B. Kwaku Duren: CA ,

Here http://www.aimovement.org/moipr/LaDukeNader.html WaBun-Inini AKA Vernon Bellecourt states "In 1988, I supported Dr. Lenora Fulani who was on the ballot in all 50 states, and she had asked me to be her vice-president running mate. While I declined the offer, I worked nationwide for her candidacy as she was raising important issues affecting Indian people, as well as other Americans. I was strongly criticized by many of the progressives and liberals across the county for supporting her." Esquizombi 15:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Additional edits/restructuring
Edits have been made to give a bit more of a coherent structure. Superfluous overemphasis on Fred Newman has been edited to hopefully more apporpirate amounts. The heading Electoral Politics and the Politics of Personality changed to simply "Electoral Politics." I have no idea what the previous heading means, and there appears to be nothing in the literature on Fulani, nor in this article as written, that elaborates on that title, which simply seems inserted for its negative sounding non-NPOV language. BabyDweezil 17:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Dennis--Article reverted to previous for the same reasons stated above. Wikipedia is not your own private forum for acting out your hostility to Fred Newman, nor a repsoitory for the allegations laid out on your own website that you seem to not be able to find a legitimate publisher for. referred to mediation. BabyDweezil 02:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Dennis King on Wikipedia monitors
from: []

Fred Flintstone's Wikipedia War

wordsmith Familiar Face

Joined: 2006-09-25 Posts: 2

Now it's Fulani too Posted: 2006-09-26 18:21:00

''BabyDweezil (see above) has removed a huge chunk of the Wikipedia bio of Fulani, including the quote from the New York Times circa 2000 in which Fulani defended Fred's ideas on patient-therapist sex. The Bank Street family seems desperate to get ANY mention of patient-therapist sex or Fred living with his "former" patients removed from the web. They even solicited a Wikipedia monitor of some kind (any high school kid can sign up and call themselves that and get an intimidating little official page that means about as much as Sponge Bob's "hall monitor" title) to post a message that Rita Nissan's series could no longer be cited in the Fred Newman article because it is not properly sourced (or something like that).

''Why all these transparent hand-in-the-cookie jar tricks at this particular moment although Fred didn't pay much attention to Wikipedia in the past? It might be that some of his Wall Street and celebrity supporters are worried about their friends and colleagues outside the cult googling Newman and Fulani (Wikipedia is just about the first thing that pops up) and thus are beginning to insist that Fred take steps to build a shield around their reputations, or else.''

thanks for clarifying, Dennis BabyDweezil 02:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Dennis--the section you claim I deleted, which begins "In a July 2000 New York Times interview, Fulani addressed..." was never removed by me, or anyone since its insertion, as the history clearly shows. A maliciously false claim about what takes place on this site is still a maliciously false claim, even if you post it on another site. BabyDweezil 05:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Minor edit
NYC mayoral election was Nov 8, 2005, hence previous version was correct; reverted. Description and reference to relevant APA guidelines being challenged by Nemwan added and sourced. BabyDweezil 18:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

You're right about Nov. 8. My mistake.DimensionX 00:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel--I reworded the sentence that you indicated as needing a citation. I have no reference; it is extrapolated from the existing public record. If this is inappropriate, please clarify the reason why. I would have no problem with its deletion if there is no way to make the statement without a citation that still falls within Wiki guidelines. BabyDweezil 01:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Page being made POV by advocates
This page, along with Fred Newman, and Social Therapy, is being made POV by advocates who are systematically removing most of the critical material. Help is needed to assure that this and the other pages are restored to NPOV status.--Cberlet 00:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Page being made less POV by editors?
Flipping through the history, I see no critical material being removed, systematically or otherwise. As one of the editors, I have made a modest effort to try to improve a page with a pre-existing, heavily POV character, correct some factual errors, and add information where appropriate. I agree with the above that help is needed, however, to have the article achieve NPOV status, not "restore" it to any such previous non-existent state as erroneously claimed above. BabyDweezil 18:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Some edits; previous editor--please explain deletions
Some minor info sourced to www.ex-iwp.org, a primary source, removed. Consolidated info from previous editor. It appears the unexplained deletion of material was meant to bring the bio up to date re Ms Fulani's current position at the All Stars, her syndicated column etc? Would be helpful if previous editor can confirm. There also appear to be some BLP issues which I will work on a bit BabyDweezil 01:09, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Some of the BLP and negaive POV issues addressed. Section on FEC removed, as presented had a clear implication of criminal activity, which is both untrue and a strongly negative POV presentation. BabyDweezil 01:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Attempts to delete critical comments on this page by participants in an ongoing discussion are not appropriate until the discussion under mediation at Fred Newman is resolved.--Cberlet 01:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

These aren't "critical comments" but biased, POV, selective insertion of material that implies criminal activity, which is demonstrably false. Reverted per BLP. BabyDweezil 03:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Links restored
Sorry Baby, but your statement "sites critical of social therapy" links removed--this is a BLP entry--no symmetry with article” is false for the following reasons: Lenora Fulani’s page states “Fulani's career has worked closely since 1980 with Fred Newman, a New York-based psychotherapist, political activist, and philosopher who has often served as her campaign manager and chief tactician for her numerous independent electoral campaigns. Social Therapy was first developed in the 1970s by Newman, who founded the New York Institute for Social therapy in 1977. Along with fellow psychologist Lois Holzman, Fulani has worked for the past 15 years to incorporate the social therapeutic approach to learning and development into a variety of youth-oriented programs and educational settings, most notably the New York City-based All Stars Project, which she co-founded in 1981. She currently serves in a volunteer capacity as an advisor to the program.” Therefore, the properly cited links which are critical of Social Therapy absolutely belong here. Links restored. GrownUpAndWise 22:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Commercial websites removed from external links
The freedomofmind and Rick Ross commercial websites have been removed from EL. These sites exist largely to sell the "services" of these self proclaimed experts and are simply commercial competitors of social therapy. They have no position on Lenora Fulani and have never have published nothing about her. They use cult baiting scare tactics simply to attract suckers for their quack services. Whatever archive material they have is duplicated on the other sites. Per WP:EL removed. BabyDweezil 16:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Chip Berlet
WP:BLP: Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article. --Ravelhave (talk) 23:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Which source is self-published? ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 01:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know is it's self published or not, although it is certainly a rather long section self inserted by the author of the source used. My question is how does this constitute criticism of Lenora Fulani? It seems largely a a criticism of Newman, and WP:BLP does say "Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, which seems to me what this section ultimately is. I recommend removal since it seems to be just a personal grudge rant followed by a personal counter rant in response. If there is criticism of the form "X criticized Fulani's view/statement/actions in x publication, that would seem more appropriate. Boodlesthecat (talk) 17:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Which source are you referring to? ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 20:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The "Criticism" section was added by cberlet and from what I can find searching the phrase "I mean no harm to these powerful Black women, Emily Carter, Lenora Fulani and Barbara Taylor..." it sources back to online text authored by Berlet himself here. But this is peripheral to my concern that this is guilt by association criticism and not conventional criticism of the subjects ideas, actions etc. Boodlesthecat (talk) 20:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Check the footnote, it tracks back to what a colleague of Fulani said about her and her organization.--Cberlet (talk) 01:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Too much journalistic material
Everything does not have to be covered; there is too much detail about the vagaries of politics and psychotherapy.--Parkwells (talk) 22:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Electoral politics
This section is too long, dealing in too much detail with NY politics.--Parkwells (talk) 12:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

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