Talk:Leo Ornstein

He wasn't Ukrainian
Ornstein was born in the Russian Empire of Jewish nationality. Throughout Russian and Soviet history, Jews were classified as members of a distinct national group. In Ukraine, he would never have been called a Ukrainian.68.111.71.197 (talk) 23:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * For the lead sentence please refer to WP:MOSBIO. Thank you, --Tom 15:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Oldest composer?
I can't find any other famous or semi-famous composers that lived longer. Is it safe to say? 64.252.139.28 (talk) 03:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I find it somewhat interesting that out of his world travels he happened to be in Green Bay, Wisconsin at the time of his death. Can anyone answer why he was there at that stage in his life? I was living in Wisconsin a short distance away at the time, and can't recall any mention of his passing in the local media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.128.24.222 (talk) 11:37, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

He was 108, dude. Just how much traveling do you think he'd be doing at that point? 64.252.183.221 (talk) 15:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I just saw a documentary on PBS about Ornstein. according to that he was 109 when he kicked off. From time to time I've heard 108 or 109. The family is convinced of 109. His obituary isn't of any help, as it lists him as "108 or 109." I tend to go with the 109 year, just because it is a hair more impressive. Oh, and it seems Ornstein thought he was 105 but since everyone was telling him 109 he'd just go along with that. Gingermint (talk) 17:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and there's this weird note on this article: "The year of Ornstein's birth has frequently been misreported, often as 1892, sometimes as 1894. For proper dating of 1893, see Broyles (2004), p. 73; Oja (2000), p. 409, n. 2. In reference to the specific date, "December 2 [is] the day that Ornstein believes is his birthday, though documents differ" (Gann [2000])." I not sure but I think Making Music Modern: New York in the 1920s by Carol J. Oja quotes Leo Ornstein: Modernist Dilemmas, Personal Choicesby Michael Broyles and Denise Von Glahn  for the date. It is jumping the gun to say, somewhat in a big way, that the year of 1893 is so proper. It also gives these two books a definitive character which, if you look at them, seems they really don't deserve. Gingermint (talk) 17:39, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I must add, not that the books aren't good. They're all right. The matter is that we can only guess at 1892 or 1893 and it isn't for sure for sure the later date and it isn't really right to say "For proper dating of 1893." Gingermint (talk) 17:56, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

"In 1988, the ninety-two-year-old Ornstein wrote his Seventh Piano Sonata. With this composition Ornstein became, by a couple of years, the oldest published composer, until Elliott Carter, ever to produce a substantial new work." Please note that this is incorrect. Havergal Brian had already (in 1968) written his Symphony No. 32 at the age of 92, as can be found in his Wikipedia entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8000:E43F:133B:65C4:F5B6:A787:C4E0 (talk) 08:20, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Historical impact
Should there be an additional section, perhaps at the end, which discusses Ornstein's legacy today? The article makes it clear how he was viewed in his time, but comments from more recent composers and scholars may illuminate our modern perspective on Ornstein, especially in how he has had an effect on music since the 1920s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.212.94 (talk) 09:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Great idea. I don't see why since other composers and pianist have that feature in their biography on Wikipedia. I am very interested in finding out who he influenced and what effect he had on modern composition.--72.93.161.241 (talk) 22:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

But surely he wasn't just American?
I've only been following this article since it was the FA, but since then, Ornstein's nationality has gone from Jewish Ukrainian-American, to Ukrainian-American, to Jewish, to Ukrainian-American, to Jewish-American, to, finally, American. Although I accept that this comment may be factually accurate, and although I accept that MOSBIO suggests that ethnicity should not generally be emphasised, the answer certainly must not be to reduce a man of a varied cultural background to, simply, "American". According to the article, his family did not move to the United States until he was about 14. His second language was English, he was an immigrant, and I believe this calls for some clarification early on.

Surely this has been hashed out on the way to this article becoming FA class. Surely someone knows better than I how to represent his nationality and ethnicity in the opening statement. I am willing to accept that "American" may be the best answer in this situation, but I'm not convinced yet and would be interested in finding out other opinions on the matter. Thanks! Maedin \talk 16:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The cases where somebody is born outside the US but is a citizen is a gray area. I usally see the following "Joe Blow was a Vulcan-born American painter" ect. The part of the policy which makes the most sense is what nationality was he when he did what makes him notable. If this person came to America when they were 14 years old, then it seems that he did most of his work here? I am not expert, but I do try to edit bios in regards to nationality. From experience, this is never easy nor clear cut. Thanks, --Tom 17:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's fair to refer to Ornstein as American in some context, but he really had his developmental training outside of the USA and clearly composed in a European manner as much as an American manner. There is a tendency to try and adopt as many people as possible as 'American'. Look at the Schoenberg article: "A Viennese and later American composer" even though more than half (maybe 2/3) of his works were already written prior to 1934. He didn't move to the USA for the cultural climate, but for safety and basically just carried on writing as though he was in Vienna. The idea of him being an 'American composer' under those circumstances is patently ridiculous. --User:marcvanderloo

Leo Ornstein Birthdate
only on Wikipedia does "original research" become "fact."

76.17.118.157 (talk) 21:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Quotations from book edited by Larry Sitsky
Greetings,

I hate to point this out, and have refrained from doing so, because it is an issue that refers to myself, but I believe that there are mistakes in the citation for the quotations from Larry Sitsky.

Here's what is present now:

Sitsky, Larry, and Jonathan D. Kramer (2002). Music of the Twentieth-Century Avant-Garde: A Biocritical Sourcebook. New York: Greenwood. ISBN 0-313-29689-8

Please correct me if I am wrong, but should not the author of the article in a book edited by someone else, be cited?

Larry Sitsky is the editor, Jonathan Kramer wrote a foreward and I wrote the article on Leo Ornstein. Surely, what is in the wiki article is not the standard practice and the conjunction of Sitsky and Kramer as dual author is incorrect.

Further, I have not compared the quotations from my article with what has been placed on the page and I will not do so because it might be considered unseemly. But it seems that whoever used this source seems not to have had a copy before them and hence the quotations may not be accurate.

Please forgive me for this, but it seems to me that this article requires further review.

All best wishes. Rumsong (talk) 17:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I've corrected the in-text misattribution, all of the relevant citations, and the bibliographic information. I apologize for the errors, which were my doing. All of the quotations are verbatim.—DCGeist (talk) 18:20, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Ornstein
Does anyone know for certain the pronunciation of Ornstein? I typed in the Cyrillic into Google Translate and the Russian voice pronounced it OrnstEEN while the American voice pronounced it OrnstIEN (as I would have expected...like Bernstein). — Devin.chaloux (chat) 13:10, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

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Use of sic
@Sneftel again changed a quotation, and removed the sic, referencing MOS:QUOTE. Well, here's what this says:

"If there is a significant error in the original statement, use [sic] or the template [sic] to show that the error was not made by Wikipedia. However, trivial spelling and typographic errors should simply be corrected without comment (for example, correct basicly to basically and harasssment to harassment), unless the slip is textually important."

I am baffled by your edit (as by most of your recent edits), which does exactly the reverse of this. Can you explain? In this particular case, the spelling "Scriabine" is not in fact an error at all, it is the natural French spelling, which Скрябин himself also used, but plainly it is not a "trivial spelling [or] typographic error", and is deserving of a "sic". Imaginatorium (talk) 06:24, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. I thought it might be a variant spelling, but couldn't find it in Alexander Scriabin (you must admit, that information is rather hidden), so I assumed it was a typo. Sneftel (talk) 13:37, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

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On the matter of Ornstein's birthdate
This article was brought to Featured Article status reflecting Ornstein's birthdate as ca. December 2, 1893, per two authoritative sources. On June 4, 2016, an IP editor made a series of edits altering that date (see collective diff) to December 11, 1895, based on entirely unsubstantiated claims about various documents, a clear violation of WP:Verifiability. Those damaging edits (one can only imagine how much confusion they've caused out in the wider world) have been reverted. If anyone does have new, verifiable evidence about Ornstein's birth, I would certainly love to see it and we can figure out how best to accommodate it in the article. — DCGeist (talk) 23:25, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Should it be mentioned that he's the namesake of an important character in the video game Dark Souls?
The character Dragonslayer Ornstein in the 2011 video game Dark Souls drops an item called the "Leo Ring" when defeated, and is thus almost certainly an homage to Leo Ornstein. The Dragonslayer has virtually nothing to do with music, though. Worth mentioning? 100.15.131.11 (talk) 04:52, 6 March 2024 (UTC)


 * If it's "almost certainly" and not verifiable in a reliable source, then certainly not. Wikipedia doesn't allow original research.
 * If it is sourceable, then I would say still probably not, because the amount it has to do subject of the article likely amounts to a passing mention in sources. Theoretically, if Ornstein were a deeply compelling figure for the designer, and this were part of a larger documented tradition of Ornstein worship, or whatever, then it becomes less trivial. I hope this makes sense! See WP:TRIVIA for more thoughts on WIkipedia policy regarding such mentions. Cheers! Remsense  诉  04:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)