Talk:Leo Prime (Beast Wars)

Requested Move: His Name Is Lio Convoy (September 2007)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus for either title. Duja ► 08:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

What the hell. His name is LioConvoy, damnit. Leo Prime is an LoC homage to him.

When the frigging IDW profile book comes out, and his name is still LioConvoy, I'm changing it back. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.158.19.72 (talk • contribs) 18:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Since Lio Convoy is a virtual unknown in Western/European Markets the idea that LoC is an simple homage to him is rather laughable. In any case while Autobot/Maximal leaders are referred to as “Convoy” in Japan, the title is not correct in Western/European Markets. Now since he is a technically a Maximal the title “Primal” might have been more correct, perhaps Rodimus Primal should have been his name. But in any case the character is now apparently considered to be all Leo Prime. --The Matrix Prime 18:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No. He was actually released by Hasbro through their collectors' website as-- LioConvoy.  So that's his name. Evan1975 05:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The figure was released as its Japanese counterpart because it did not have a North American one as of yet. Hence why the figure Shadow Panther was eventually released as Tripredacus Agent, because he had a North American counterpart.  Also, we can easily accept his name being Leo Prime because he bares a Matrix of Leadership, like Optimus and Rodimus before him.  That is also why Primal  would have been an inappropriate name, because Optimus Primal did not have a Matrix (although he did in the Japanese continuity, hence his name being Convoy the Japanese equivalent to Prime).  We can only assume that as more comics come out that we will soon be seeing more of the Japanese characters become mainstream.  That being said, we have to be ready for the characters to receive North American names, such as Big Convoy and possibly even Galvatron. --TriPredRavage 13:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually its not so easy to accept him as a Prime because as you said the Japanese series incorrectly has Optimus Primal possessing the Matrix. If Primal doesn't really have it then it’s not hard to assume the Leo might not actually have it either then. Like I said it’s open to debate on whether Leo really is a Prime or should’ve been a Primal. But nevertheless, his western name is now Leo Prime, for good or ill. --The Matrix Prime 22:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is not incorrectly, it's just a different continuity. It's just how the Japanese decided to translate the series.  Leo having the Matrix is an unavoidable condition, however, considering that it is such a major plot device during BWII and BWNeo.  I know that they removed the Matrix from Ultra Magnus in RID, but his Matrix was never actually shown (despite it being the reason the Autobot brothers get the power up), unlike Lio Convoy's and Big Convoy's.  They openly expose their Matrixes, making them unavoidably known.  Either way though, whether it should have been "Primal" or if it shouldn't, it doesn't really matter now, does it?--TriPredRavage 23:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is a different continuity now being brought into another continuity, that's why it’s debatable. I’m not saying one version is better then the other, I’m saying there’s room to argue, now aren’t I? The fact that he should be or shouldn’t be a Prime is moot, but still debatable. I hope that makes it clearer for you. --The Matrix Prime 18:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Official material refers to him as Lio Convoy, see the IDW BW comics. Leo Prime was nothing more than a homage.24.127.3.102

Some of the Ascension page(s) are now up for viewing and they clearly state Leo Convoy not Leo Prime. http://media.comics.ign.com/media/956/956780/imgs_1.html 24.127.3.102


 * I wrote to Simon Furman aksing him why the name was selected to be Lio Convoy over Leo Prime and he explained that it was more simple to use the original release names over any changes that had come over the years . Considering that comicbook continuity always tends to vary from other continuities (whether it be Marvel, DC, IDW, etc...), it means that the name very well could still be Leo Prime in other media.  And on top of that, the comics have not always been capable of officially confirming anything.  In the original TF comics Frenzy was Blue and Rumble was red, as were the figures; however, in the show and all comics after the original series, Rumble has been blue and Frenzy has been red.  In such cases I would have to believe that the figure must take priority over the comic considering Furman explained himself they didn't take such into account.--TriPredRavage 12:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

A toy with no bio does not take precedence over the fiction. This page chronicles the fiction of the character, it just mentions the toys not chronicles. The fiction takes precedence. 24.127.3.102


 * OK, as the recent comics reinforce, so there's more than enough evidence that the character is named Lio Convoy after all. Does someone else have the guts to move it back, or should I? Evan1975 01:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Mover it back Evan1975, it never should have been moved in the first place there was never any evidence to support the move to Leo Prime in the first place. 24.127.3.102

No, a Redirect in Lio Convoy is appropriate. A line on this page should say he's known as both. user_talk:mathewignash —The preceding  signed but undated.


 * Or we should swap the Leo Primes with Lio Convoys, and the Lio Convoys with Leo Primes, considering that as of now, Leo Prime is the more common name on the page. So one of the first lines would say something like "Lio Convoy (known as Leo Prime in America)" or something.--TriPredRavage 13:32, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Or we could just change the part in the IDW production to explain that in The Ascending he is called Lio Convoy instead of the western name Leo Prime, rather than it just mention it in the solicitation. Heck we could even use Furman's explanation that he gave me on his blog as to why.  It pretty much explains it as it is.--TriPredRavage 13:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It needs to be moved to LioConvoy and all Leo Primes need to be replaced with LioConvoy. Anything else is contradicts the purpose of this page, the chronicling of the White Lion Transformer's fiction. He is also not known as both, he is known as LioConvoy with a homage toy name Leo Prime, nothing exists to prove that Leo Prime is LioConvoy other than a tiny Transformer that is a white lion with a first name that sounds similar to Lio. 24.127.3.102


 * And that Convoy is the Japanese equivalent to Prime.--TriPredRavage 02:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It may be equivalent but that doesn't mean his name is Leo Prime or Lio Prime or anything Prime. His name is LioConvoy and nothing else there is absolutely nothing that backs the idea that LioConvoy is named Leo Prime in America. Official BW comics proves so. 24.127.3.102


 * Yeah, but how many official comics prove or disprove different things? Razorbeast and Optimus Primal both first appeared in the mini-comic that came in the Optimus Primal/Megatron 2-pack.  Does that mean that officially Optimus Primal is a bat?  Does that make Razorbeast's appearance official?  The comic was an official comic, but I don't think the events of it are recollected or mentioned anywhere and most fans just throw it aside, despite being officially made by Hasbro.  In the Botcon Wreckers comics, Sonar is a girl, in the IDW comics and the figure, Sonar is a boy.  All of the media are official, but they contradict one another.  According to Optimus Minor's bio on his toy, he is a clone of Optimus Primal, in the comics he is just from a Stasis Pod; however, both media are official.  There is no reason that this should be any different.  They are just different official media.--TriPredRavage 17:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That minicomic was later overwritten, while official it is no longer a part of the continuity. Wreckers to has been written out of continuity. Optimus Minor's status as a clone yet again was written out of continuity. Your arguments are completely without merit. Until official fiction writes LioConvoy as Leo Prime nothing exists to prove that LioConvoy is Leo Prime. Official fiction establishes that in the continuity his name is LioConvoy. 24.127.3.102
 * And your argument is flawed. If such can be “out written” then what are we even arguing about?  You say that due to it being “out written” then it is “no longer part of the continuity.”  You are wrong.  It is not that it is “no longer part of the continuity,” it is that it is a different continuity all together.  If an official document thereby falsifies and makes unofficial another document, then ultimately no document is official fore the two cancel one another.  If that were the case then the white lion Transformer would thereby have no name considering that both are officially recognized by Hasbro.  And beside that, Simon Furman explained the reasoning behind calling him Lio Convoy, he did not deny that the character is now recognized as Leo Prime, nor did he state that it is not Leo Prime now.  Furman explained that the decision was made to use all characters under names as they originally appeared, merely disregarding any changes, not denying them.--TriPredRavage 20:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Picture
I think, perhaps, with the up and coming Ascending series, maybe we could afford to give Leo Prime a new image, instead of the screen capture from the BWII movie. Maybe we could use the cover image featuring him with Razorbeast, or just the one of him with all of the Maximal protoforms, as they are most likely about to become his new recruits. Or even the cover from The Gathering which shows him jumping and transforming. It seems appropriate considering that the image that is being used is prominently featuring Optimus Primal and even has a subtitle of running across the bottom that is actually a line spoken by Primal. Just a thought.--TriPredRavage 02:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Move to LioConvoy (October 2007)
 + :''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' + +  no consensus. --TriPredRavage 13:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

His name has never been Leo Prime. Some stupid little insignicant toy with nothing on it or on the internet to prove his existance as the same character as LioConvoy. However official and cannon products prove his name is indeed LioConvoy. --The Virginian 11:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC) TriPredRavage's example of the Overlord/Gigatron, where the article is titled after the original character and then later mentions a tiny insignificant toy calls him Gigatron, I propose we follow precedence and do exactly the same thing on this article.--The Virginian 11:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Here are the facts. We know that in some fictions he is referred to as Lio Convoy.  We also know that the figures that appear in the Classics line are supposed to be the original characters that their names represent.  This being said, who was the original Leo Prime?  We know that on the bio on the back of the figure that Leo Prime is a Supreme Commander, just like Lio Convoy before him.  That being said, does the Legends of Cybertron Bumblebee look just like the original Bumblebee?  No.  Quite frankly, none of the figures look exactly like the originals, so any argument that says they are simply homage is ridiculous.  As I’ve said before, official cannon changes all the time, but it doesn’t make one or the other any less true.  The character can be both names.  The page can list both names, similar to the Gigatron/Overlord page.--TriPredRavage 05:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact is every fiction lists him as LioConvoy, not a single fiction lists him as Leo Prime. Fact is that Hasbro America has released him as LioConvoy before. The only instance of a Leo Prime is a toy made in homage which only has a bio stating he is Supreme Commander from Cybertron, nothing states he is actually LioConvoy. Also you should sign your entry properly, it's two dashes then four tildes not two tildes then four dashes. --The Virginian 23:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Pardon me for being human and making a mistake once and a while. Also, you should try to argue points that haven’t been brought up before.  That aside, you still don’t have the right to change the page when no consensus has been achieved.--TriPredRavage 00:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Why should I argue points that haven't been argued before when the ones that have been argued before are the only ones needed to prove you wrong on every aspect from the top to the bottom. Besides it's not like you are coming up with any new arguments to support your ludicrous assertion that the Leo Prime toy is in fact LioConvoy and that should overwrite any fictional accounts which the page documents. Try taking your own advice before doling it out to others. The consensus is only needed to move the page, it isn't need to change the wording. As for pardoning you, no. A simple task that can be done with the click of a button and you screw it up. --The Virginian 00:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You really need to calm down. It’s just a Wikipedia page.  The reason why I do not need to come up with new arguments is simply because I am looking to keep the page the same, while you want the change.  That means you need to display some sort of reason to change it that is indisputable, and thus, I do not need my own advice.  As for your pardon, I wasn’t really asking, nor do I truly care for it.  A mistake is a mistake, and you make them too, so chill.  So forgive me, or not, if I typed my comment in Word and copied and pasted it into Wikipedia and made a small error in signing.--TriPredRavage 01:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You haven't seen me in a state of uncalm. You do need to come up with new arguments if your are telling other people to do so. Hasbro has consistently released materials that prove his name is LioConvoy. That is indisputable. There is nothing you can say that will erase that fact. You are completely wrong just like this article's name. --The Virginian 02:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)8
 * Okay, the only situation in which I would need to come up with a new argument is when some one makes one that challenges what we’ve already said, in which you still haven't done. Either way, you and I debating upon being calm or not calm is quite off topic.  However, arguing points that have already been made is quite tiresome and redundant and get’s us nowhere when they have already been covered.--TriPredRavage 05:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That isn't the only situation. Anytime you debate and you tell others to come up with something new, you to have to do same. Those who support the move to LioConvoy have no need to come up with something new, they have everything on their side backing them up and it is indisputable. You have nothing but a nothing toy with a nothing bio. --The Virginian 12:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, let me get this straight: Takara releases the toy in Japan as "Lio Convoy". Takara have him show up in the Beast Wars II cartoon, referred to as "Lio Convoy". Hasbro later officially import the toy and sell it as "Lio Convoy". Many years later, Hasbro release an homage toy with no bio named "Leo Prime". Then IDW release a Beast Wars comic with the character being named "Lio Convoy" again. In other words, when Hasbro imported the original toy, they used the Japanese name, but later they released an homage toy using a new name, so this means the homage toy's name takes precedence over the original toy's? And the only Western fiction he appeared in so far also uses the Japanese name, but that doesn't count either because ZOMG there's an obscure US toy that has a different name? Is this about correct? ERM. To the above, I resent the notion of using personal attacks to make a point, no matter which side it is in favor of.--80.141.70.136 12:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * TriPredRavage you want some new arguments, here is one. Wiki rules that the most common name should be used, so if that is the case his page has to be labeled Lio Convoy. Two animated shows used Lio Convoy, numerous toys mostly Japanese and one American used the name Lio Convoy, most recently comics used the name Lio Convoy. As 80.141.70.136 put it one obscure toy used Leo Prime. Having this page labeled Leo Prime is violation of Wiki Rules. --The Virginian 13:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, please, try to understand what I am saying here about the argument thing, because you actually just said the same thing. I do need to come up with something new when some one else comes up with something new, that is a given; however, if no one ever came up with something new, there wouldn't have been a reason to come up with something, that's all I am saying.  And you pretty much said it as well, unless I misinterpreted your message.  Now, you say that because the name Lio Convoy is the most used name, it takes precedence, correct?  You claim that 2 animated series, Japanese figures and an American figure use the name.  First of all, the figure wasn’t American, it was an import, and it was recognized as an import, so to call it an American figure is incorrect.  Otherwise, you are right, the name Lio Convoy does appear more times than Leo Prime, after all it has been around longer as well.  However, if you want to use the name that appears most, then pretty much every TF page on Wikipedia needs to be changed to the Japanese counterpart.  Do we change Optimus Primal?  He appears in 5 different Japanese series under the name Convoy/Beast Convoy, and also appears in their comics under that name.  He also has many more repaints in Japan of the figures representing the same character, so he has more figures than we do in the English speaking countries.  If you think that that Wikipedia rule is enough to merit the change, that’s great, but then we will have to move all of the other pages as well to coincide with this rule.  Please understand as well that I do recognize the character as Lio Convoy, as I am pretty sure that everybody does; however, I know that I am not the only one that will take an English name over a Japanese name.  I also recognize Dai Atlas as King Atlas, but I can not prove that they are the same character when he received no fiction and no bio to relate the characters.  The problem is there are too many grey areas.  What is homage, what isn’t homage; it leaves a lot to argue.  Now, that being said, I am not going to go and argue that Nemesis Prime and Big Convoy are the same character, because they aren’t (unless some fiction decides to depict them as such), despite that they use the same mold.  So, please know that I at least recognize when there is no leg to stand on.  Personally, if we set the page up reminiscent of the Gigatron/Overlord page, I wouldn’t have a problem with it, and would actually be quite pleased.--TriPredRavage 14:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Also in the case of "Leo Prime", his casemate Fireflight was originally intended to be named "Powerglide", but Hasbro couldn't get the trademark. Does that make him Fireflight or Powerglide now? Same about Alternators Windcharger. Is he Windcharger or Overdrive, who he was designed as and released as in Japan? Binaltech Overdrive has a story, Alternators Windcharger has not. So who is he? I don't have an easy answer to that one. Sometimes toy names can be real messy. There are three different Targemaster Nebulans who were named "Nightstick" at one point or another. Two of them are even the same mold, but came with different toys (Cyclonus in 1987, Ricochet in 2004) that belonged to opposite factions. Are they the same character or not?--80.141.70.136 18:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. It’s easy for us to just accept that one thing is right, but once something new comes along that contradicts that, people get all up in arms, and rightfully so.  Menasor is another.  He is designed to resemble Motor Master, but they didn’t have the rights to the name.  While I’m not exactly sure which point you are arguing, 80.141.70.136, I do appreciate you at least seeing where I am coming from on this.  It get’s sticky when we don’t have a lot of information.  Like I was saying about King/Dai Atlas before, we do know that King was supposed to have a role in the Universe comics that was supposedly going to relate him to Dai, but that never came about.  Here’s another; the character Tripredacus Agent.  Everybody and their mothers know that he is intended to be Ravage, as even the comic later declared, but even before then everybody jumped on it and called him Ravage.  However, we never had any official documentation that he was.  We did the same thing with Shadow Panther, if I remember correctly, but I also believe that later he was imported under the name of Tripredacus Agent as Hasbro’s attempt to connect the two figures.  Either way, I feel like this is the same.  We have the two names, and we have the two sides, now it’s just a matter of what fiction people decide to follow.  Deathsaurus/Deszaras is another one.  I just think that if we can achieve some sort of balance to the page, recognizing both sides of the argument that we won’t be killing each other over, then we will be fine.  Now it’s just a matter of finding that balance.  --TriPredRavage 19:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, actually Hasbro imported Shadow Panther in 2000, originally offered him as "Shadow Panther" (because they couldn't use the name "Ravage" at that time), then found out they couldn't use THAT name either, thus renamed him into "Tripredacus Agent" in 2000, and then later used the same name for the Wal*Mart exclusive TM2 Tigatron redeco in 2001.--80.141.70.136 20:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you. I knew that there was more to the Shadow Panther/Tripredacus Agent story than I could specifically recall.--TriPredRavage 20:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Er, make that "Hasbro imported Shadow Panther in 1999", not "2000".--80.141.70.136 20:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think maybe we could set the page up the same way we have it on all the other characters from Beast Wars II. In their cases, we list the English character, and then list the events of the Japanese character beneath them.  I still think Leo Prime takes precedence because of what Simon Furman said.  Notice the three people that are listed, none of them are Hasbro officials.  Ben Yee is just a consultant, so that doesn’t mean that Hasbro didn’t change the name.  As far as using the original name in the comics, all the comics use the original name.  Hot Rod, Jazz, Shockwave, the comics have used all of those names regardless of if they have the trademark or not.  Yes, they have the Shockwave name now, but they didn’t back when Dreamwave was publishing.  That being said, I think that because Leo Prime is the first true, non-import, North American figure release, I think it’s the name it should use.--TriPredRavage 15:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If that is the stance you want to take I will have to go to the Overlord page and to the request move page and request that Overlord be moved to Gigatron. It's the same thing as Leo Prime. --The Virginian 18:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''

"Not Strictly a Classics Toy?"
I'm curious where this statement is coming from. Leo Prime appears to have been released in the Classics line, his packaging is identical to the other classics toys.

When has Hasbro said Leo Prime is not part of the Classics toyline? (This sounds like bullshit, the equivalent of claiming that Cryotek was not a Robots in Disguise toy.) Citation please. -Deriksmith 02:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Leo Prime showed up in Don Figueroa's big Classics lithograph that was sold at BotCon 2007. So.  --68.250.179.231 03:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think this is a vague reference to the fact that the Classics LoC packaging doesn't actually have the "Classics" moniker on it anywhere. 71.60.161.100 (talk) 05:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

How about the original name?
I don'r eeally understand all the agitation over the use of "American" name. Why can't we use the original names? Just like Optimus Prime's original name is Optimus Prime, Leo Convoy's original name is Leo Convoy.

Of course it probably would get a little confusing in the case of the Unicron trilogy (prior to which none of the Japan-made stuff made it into english-speaking territories, at least officially, so it isn't so much of a problem there), because although technically they were made in Japan, the english names are probably considered more "mainstream"...

...although it's still a lot less stupid than suddenly changing the wiki entry entirely because of a Hasbro toy suddenly popping up after having been "Leo Convoy" for years. It's almost as bad as deciding Unicron is suddenly a decepticon because he came in a packaging with decepticon sigil... 84.250.41.125 (talk) 17:26, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah but the same thing can be said about Bluestreak/Silverstreak and a handful of other guys. For ages he was Bluestreak, but Hasbro lost the rights and released his latest figure under the name of Silverstreak.  As you can see from the previous topics there has been a lot of discussion on the topic, but we must also consider that this is the English Wiki and Leo Prime was the given English name.  There is also the issue that in the most recent Beast Wars comics he appears under the name Lio Convoy once again, but Simon Furman himself said that they decided to neglect any changes that have occured over the years (see prior topic for source), which isn't surprising considering that even though Bluestreak is now officially Silverstreak and Hot Rod is now officially Rodimus, they still appear in comics under their original names. --TriPredRavage (talk) 19:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The basic Wikipedia naming policy is not "name in English" but "best known name used by English speakers". So where a name incorporated from the native language is far more widespread than an alternative originating in English it should be the former not the latter used. In my experience the character is far better known as "Lio Convoy" amongst English speaking fans and is also what the original toy was sold as by Hasbro in the US market. Note also we have Ginrai as "Ginrai" and not "Optimus Prime (Transformers: Super-God Masterforce)" even though he's called "Optimus Prime" in the English dub of the cartoon. Timrollpickering (talk) 21:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Two characters
Honestly Lio Convoy and Leo Prime seem to be as different characters as Optimus Prime and Optimus Primal. He would need 2 different pages. One for each. Mathewignash (talk) 00:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I completely disagree. There seems to be no difference just like there seems to be no difference between Bluestreak and Silverstreak.  I'm also a little disappointed that this changed so suddenly without an agreement over the discussion page.  And considering that Leo Prime has no fiction other than a lithograph and his backcard bio, it's a litte excessive that he merits his own page.  The two pages should be reverted back to one as they were before.--TriPredRavage (talk) 16:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair arguement. One vote for combining the articles - I vote for keeping them seperate. I'll go with majority opinion here, if we get a couple more votes, is that acceptable? Mathewignash (talk) 21:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm voting against, but I'm really getting beyond the point of caring about it anymore. I've raised the arguments before above.  Whatever happens, happens.  I'm just ready for it to be over.--TriPredRavage (talk) 00:50, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Liger?
Seriously? Why, because LigerJack was a liger? We even acknowledge Leobreaker as a lion, not a liger. Considering that Leo is Greek for lion and his name is not "Liger Prime", I think the alt-mode listing should be changed to Lion.--TriPredRavage (talk) 05:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Checked and the box doesn't mention what it is. Even his Hasbro page calls him a "beast". Hopefully the Voyager class toy will say something like "Lion Mode". Mathewignash (talk) 09:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Semi-related note: LioConvoy's IDW pre-Earth beast mode appears to be based on the Zoids Liger Zero. So yeah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.127.64 (talk) 17:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, that's a moot point considering the undiscussed and anaproved seperation of Lio Convoy and Leo Prime. And even then, Liger Zero didn't have tank treds on the back of his legs.  So, it doesn't really matter what inspires Lio Convoy at all, it (currently) has nothing to do with Leo Prime.--TriPredRavage (talk) 02:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Pre-Earth
Is there any chance we could get a picture of his pre-Earth body from the Beast Wars II animated series? It would be nice to have along with his pre-Earth design from IDW. There's one on the Transformers Wiki, but I'm unsure of the issues and rights that go along with picture uploading. I'd be willing to capture a screen shot as well, but again, I'm unsure of the issues and rights that go along with picture uploading. --TriPredRavage (talk) 19:33, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no problem with getting pictures uploaded, the problem lies in the number of non-free (copywritten) pictures we use per article. The more of them we place on a page, the more the self-appointed picture-police of Wikipedia are likely to show up and suggest we remove the excess pictures. Maybe I can add in a montage of pictures of Lio Convoy as a single image? Mathewignash (talk) 19:40, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I just think it would be interesting to have a comparative picture of the BWII pre-Earth to the IDW version. If you want to do said montage, I'd say putting those two pictures next to one another would be most effective.--TriPredRavage (talk) 19:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The Title: Move request (2010)
Is incorrect and should be changed. We are supposed to use the best known name used by English speakers. As far as I can tell, outside Wikipedia, NO ONE uses Leo Prime to refer to the character, they all refer to the character as Lio Convoy. Leo Prime is only used to refer to two obscure toys released in the Classics and Universe lines. Keeping this page at "Leo Prime" is illogical. --Divebomb (talk) 12:16, 19 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Since no one cares.....

Requested move 3

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 16:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Leo Prime → Lio Convoy — Title violates naming conventions. The point is to use the name most commonly used in English, not the name of two obscure toys released in the English-speaking market. Keeping the page here is illogical. Relisted.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 04:52, 30 September 2010 (UTC) --Divebomb (talk) 13:16, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I had done it because that he's english name and this is an english speaking wiki, but if you can quote some policy I'm unaware of, I'm open to the idea of a movie. Mathewignash (talk) 20:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, you asked for it. The very first sentence of Naming conventions (use English) is "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works). ".
 * Pay close attention to the "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language" part. Now, the fact that a few obscure toys were released in the English-speaking market under the Leo Prime name does not automatically make that name the most common one. All of his fiction appearances had him as Lio Convoy. Most of his toys call him Lio Convoy. The fandom calls him Lio Convoy (unless they're referring to said obscure toys). See where I'm going with this? --Divebomb (talk) 17:46, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Merge to a list of Transformers characters. The closest one appears to be List of Beast Wars characters, so a new list may need to be built. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 05:05, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * You're thinking of Beast_Wars_II there, buddy. Still, can we hold off on any merges for now? --Divebomb (talk) 08:22, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Support. If Lio Convoy is indeed the name he's best known by, then that's what the title should be. And even though I'm not very familiar with Japanese Transformers, I have heard of Lio Convoy, but not of "Leo Prime". J I P  &#124; Talk 10:22, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The character started out on the page called Lio Convoy, it's ONLY name at the time, from Japan, then Hasbro started calling it Leo Prime in the US, so we moved it there, since it was the only ENGLISH name of the character, and that seemed appropriate. Since then IDW comics have had him appear and called him Lio Convoy in the comics, so now he has two different ENGLISH names. Most people seem to know Lio Convoy, and since it's an English name now too, it seems fine. Mathewignash (talk) 14:36, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This discussion has been ongoing for almost three weeks now (almost two weeks since being relisted) with no votes opposing the move. Can this article be moved to Lio Convoy already? J I P  &#124; Talk 18:34, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, everyone cares, if you bothered to look up, you'll note that this has been disscussed TWICE already with the end result of keeping it Leo Prime, the same way Hasbro does. "Convoy" is the Japanese name for "Prime" - you'll note we don't call his page "Convoy" either.

And Divebomb is a puppet editer, that's why he was banned. The Matrix Prime (talk) 02:29, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move request (2011)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: '''Page moved back, The Matrix Prime warned on his talk page. Eager Thought (talk) 18:23, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Lio Prime → Lio Convoy — The result of the previous move request was a nearly unambigous Move. Results of past move requests shouldn't affect it, and the fact that Divebomb was a sockpuppet doesn't mean everything associated to anything he ever did is inherently evil. "Lio Convoy" is, simply, the name this toy and character is by far the best known by. The fact that Hasbro decided to call it "Leo Prime" in the USA doesn't affect this. It's true that we don't call Optimus Prime "Convoy" even though that was his original Japanese name, but then, did "Convoy" star in a movie that caused thousands of children to cry themselves to sleep? No. However, when it comes to "Lio Convoy" versus "Leo Prime", hardly anyone in the English-speaking world had heard of either of them at the time, and by the time they were introduced to this toy, they were already well familiar with the original Japanese name. "Convoy" was an obscure toy no one outside Japan knew about. In contrast, "Lio Convoy" was made into a world that was already fully familiar with Transformers, and thus prepared to accept the original name. PS: The current name "Lio Prime" (sic) is entirely unacceptable, being a mish-mash of the Japanese and English language names. -- J I P &#124; Talk 19:33, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * delete and redirect to the character list List of Beast Wars II characters like oh so many other Transformers characters have been deleted and optionally redirected. 64.229.103.44 (talk) 16:13, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a proposal for move. If you want the article to be deleted, use proposal for deletion or nomination for deletion discussion. J I P  &#124; Talk 17:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Two previous discussions resulted in leaving the character as Leo Prime. The so-called "third" discussion was a puppet editor simply stating his wish and then moving it without discussion or consensus. His actions caused both his accounts to be banned. Eager Thought should consider Divebomb's example and can consider himself warned. It would make sense to call this character "Convoy" if it was written in Japanese, but its not. Convoy has long been accepted as the Japanese name for Prime. Hasbro simply followed already established precedent when it translated his name to Prime for USA and Europe. So calling the character Prime is not changing the name, it is simply the English translation. Besides, "Convoy" is an obscure name outside of Japan. Calling the character Prime allows the character to be accepted by a world familiar with Transformers, it was a smart decision by Hasbro. Finally, calling Hasbro's decision to call the character Leo Prime as "unacceptable" is in of its self highly unacceptable. Hasbro owns the rights to the toy and the character and they can legally call it whatever they wish. Your personal preferance in defiance of concensus and reality does not belong on Wikipedia. If you wish to bring up the proposed move AGAIN, that's fine, but don't simply move the page without discussion like Divebomb did. The Matrix Prime (talk) 21:37, 29 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Note also that User:Eager Thought is currently blocked for other reasons not entirely unrelated, see User talk:Eager Thought. Andrewa (talk) 20:15, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move (2011, again)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

I have moved the page back to its prior title and requested move protection. POV-pushing of the type being perpetrated here is simply unacceptable. --The Circle That Must Be Broken (talk) 09:39, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Lio Prime → Lio Convoy —The result of the previous move request was a nearly unambigous Move. Results of past move requests shouldn't affect it, and the fact that Divebomb was a sockpuppet doesn't mean everything associated to anything he ever did is inherently evil. "Lio Convoy" is, simply, the name this toy and character is by far the best known by. The fact that Hasbro decided to call it "Leo Prime" in the USA doesn't affect this. It's true that we don't call Optimus Prime "Convoy" even though that was his original Japanese name, but then, did "Convoy" star in a movie that caused thousands of children to cry themselves to sleep? No. However, when it comes to "Lio Convoy" versus "Leo Prime", hardly anyone in the English-speaking world had heard of either of them at the time, and by the time they were introduced to this toy, they were already well familiar with the original Japanese name. "Convoy" was an obscure toy no one outside Japan knew about. In contrast, "Lio Convoy" was made into a world that was already fully familiar with Transformers, and thus prepared to accept the original name. PS: The current name "Lio Prime" (sic) is entirely unacceptable, being a mish-mash of the Japanese and English language names. J I P &#124; Talk 17:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note to The Matrix Prime in the above section: Please read the move request more thoroughly. No one ever said Hasbro's decision to call the character "Leo Prime" in the USA was unacceptable. What I said is an unacceptable name is this Wikipedia article's current name "Lio Prime" (not "Leo Prime"), which I understand is neither the original Japanese name or Hasbro's USA version of the name. J I P  &#124; Talk 17:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Another note to The Matrix Prime: You said Eager Thought was wrong to move this article to Lio Convoy without prior discussion. So why did you move it to Lio Prime without prior discussion then? J I P  &#124; Talk 17:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. Google gives me 112,000 ghits for Leo Prime, 1300 for Lio Prime , 6280 for Leo Convoy and 74,800 for Lio Convoy  (your results may vary). From that and arguments above (including in previous move discussions, which are recent enough to be taken as part of this one) it looks to me that either Lio Convoy or Leo Prime is acceptable, and it's hard to choose between them. No vote as yet. Andrewa (talk) 00:20, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Two previous discussions resulted in leaving the character as Leo Prime. The so-called "third" discussion was a puppet editor simply stating his wish and then moving it without discussion or consensus. His actions caused both his accounts to be banned. Eager Thought should consider Divebomb's example and can consider himself warned. It would make sense to call this character "Convoy" if it was written in Japanese, but its not. Convoy has long been accepted as the Japanese name for Prime. Hasbro simply followed already established precedent when it translated his name to Prime for USA and Europe. So calling the character Prime is not changing the name, it is simply the English translation. Besides, "Convoy" is an obscure name outside of Japan. Calling the character Prime allows the character to be accepted by a world familiar with Transformers, it was a smart decision by Hasbro. Finally, calling Hasbro's decision to call the character Leo Prime as "unacceptable" is in of its self highly unacceptable. Hasbro owns the rights to the toy and the character and they can legally call it whatever they wish. Your personal preferance in defiance of concensus and reality does not belong on Wikipedia. If you wish to bring up the proposed move AGAIN, that's fine, but don't simply move the page without discussion like Divebomb did.The Matrix Prime (talk) 16:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note to JIP: Read your own comment more carefully, you said it was unacceptable. As to the spelling "Leo" or "Lio" I have no preferrance. Both essentially mean the same thing, to try to start an arguement over that is just silly. If people want to change spelling of the character's name to Leo Prime, that's fine with me obviously.The Matrix Prime (talk) 16:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note to JIP: See Wikipedia policy - both Divebomb and Eagerthought made a move without prior discussion, so their edit was reverted until such an event. The Matrix Prime (talk) 16:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Please point out the place where I said that "Hasbro's decision to call the character Leo Prime in the USA is unacceptable". All I ever said was that the name Lio Prime is unacceptable, because as far as I am aware, that isn't a name the character is known by anywhere. J I P  &#124; Talk 18:58, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Lio or Leo, Hasbro has the right call the character whatever they wish, bottomline.The Matrix Prime (talk) 01:52, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The name is Leo Prime, has been for a few years now, and the article should return to that title. The Japanese series Beast Wars II, Neo, and Robot Masters do not suffice as they have no English counterpart.  As we have seen in cases such as when Galaxy Force became Cybertron, causing Galaxy Convoy to become Optimus Prime, we know that the Japanese name has no bearing on the English counterpart.  The only serious source of English ficion that the character appears under the name of Lio Convoy is in The Ascending comics.  This, however, is not a strong enough source to support the character's page being under that name because the Transformers comic fiction is often subject to the author.  Case and point, the character Sonar.  Sonar appeared as a male character in its toy bio, and as a female character in the Universe Wreckers Comics and the Beast Wars Sourcebook.  Simon Furman himself in his "for better or worse," quote clearly acknowledges the name change and admits that he, along with the others, decided not to recognize it as a personal choice.  This could be seen as a comparison to past situations such as Jazz being renamed to Meister.  In that instance, the character was initially named, in English, Jazz, and his name was changed to Meister due to copyright issues.  Same with Hot Rod.  In those instances, the original English name is the chosen and accepted name.  With that in mind, the character thereby appeared in English under the name of Leo Prime first (in 2006), which was then followed by the first English appearance of Lio Convoy (in 2007).  Thus, Leo Prime actually came first in English terms.  Finally, we know the name is Leo Prime because the toy's character bio willingly acknowledges the only English fiction the character has appeared in, The Ascending by refering to his being the leader of The Pack.  Along with the above mentioned popularity in Google Searches by name, Leo Prime is clearly the most popular occurance of the name now, as well as being the officially liscensed name.  Negative vote.  The name is Leo Prime. --TriPredRavage (talk) 03:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

 * Move to Leo Prime, in accordance with the Google searches above, and in the absence of any terribly relevant discussion above. Andrewa (talk) 03:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Vote in favor of move to Leo Prime. --TriPredRavage (talk) 03:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

On repeated moves
May I suggest that if this discussion produces at least a rough consensus on a name, that we should then recommend that the article will not again be moved or proposed for a move for 12 months, but that after that time we consider any new move proposal on its merits at the time. Andrewa (talk) 00:29, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * That sounds good to me. Above I have already stated that I have no real preferance between the spelling of the name "Lio Convoy" or "Leo Convoy". I'd thinking I'd actually lean more towards "Leo" as I think that is the more proper accepted spelling of that word/name. But either works good for me, I'm flexible. The Matrix Prime (talk) 16:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Since the character appears in the US licensed fiction under the name "Lio Convoy", I think we have to respect that name. Any toy name under "Leo Prime" is just being used for trademark purposes, where the FICTION uses his real name. I am unaware of ANY official instance of him being called "Leo Convoy" in any official licensed fiction. Mathewignash (talk) 23:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I would certainly agree to these terms. This edit war has gone on far too long.  However, I must disagree with Mathewignash.  While, he is correct that there is no official source that refers to the character under the name Leo Convoy, the character's name is Leo Prime, and such should be recognized as such in the article.  As I mention above, the comics Mathewignash is refering to were subject to the author's and editors' opinions, which Simon Furman himself acknowledges in his "for better or worse" quote.  Being that the toy bio even acknowledges the fiction that Mathewignash is referencing, it is clear that the name is actually Leo Prime, and the article should refelct that.--TriPredRavage (talk) 03:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


 * Lio or Leo, Hasbro has the right call the character whatever they wish, bottomline.

I have never argued with that. My main point was that Hasbro has never called the character "Lio Prime", only "Leo Prime". Furthermore, Hasbro may have an authority over the character, at least the USA version, but not over Wikipedia. Wikipedia has a policy that articles should use the best known common name for the subject. That's why Wikipedia's article about heroin is named heroin, even though it is officially a reserved trademark owned by Bayer, and the actual drug has a neutral chemical name, and that's also why the English Wikipedia calls Finland "Finland" and not "Suomi", even though "Suomi" is the native name. But if it has been established that "Leo Prime" is the best known common name for the character in the English-speaking world, I don't wish to pursue the issue any further. My main point was moving the article away from a name that is not officially used anywhere. J I P &#124; Talk 20:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Redundant text
I've removed the text is the name of from the lead sentence. Pedantically, it wasn't just redundant, but wrong. Lio Prime is the character; "Lio Prime" is the name of the character. The emphasis in the lead is our standard format and does not constitute what logicians call display (and the italics in this post all do, for those who care about such things). Andrewa (talk) 19:47, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Requested Move 2011 Part 2
So after yesterday's whole event, I would like to remind/inform everybody that this debate had been decided on in the past on the Transformers Wikiproject page, which can be seen here. The name should be Leo Prime as had been decided upon before. The article was moved to Lio Prime in error, and the article should have been reverted to that name after the faulty edit, rather than this entire debate opening up again. So, I would like to again propose the move to Leo Prime, as we had not yet reached a concensus prior to yesterday's events, and because this debate has been carried about before and had been decided in favor of the name Leo Prime --TriPredRavage (talk) 13:07, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Affirmative/Positive Vote because of this and every reason I have posted in the past debates. --TriPredRavage (talk) 13:14, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Move to Leo Prime if it won't be moved to Lio Convoy. Either name is better than "Lio Prime" which isn't a name used for the character anywhere. J I P  &#124; Talk 20:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, he is NEVER called Lio Prime EVER. Who moved it there? Mathewignash (talk) 02:20, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't know. As I recall, it was somebody who was using two accounts or something like that.  I don't really remember.  I think it was discussed above though. --TriPredRavage (talk) 02:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

*Move back to Lio Convoy His most common name is Lio Convoy, not Leo Prime. Only the toys are called Leo Prime. If you can find a source that calls the character Leo Prime, I will consider changing my mind. But only then. Je suis partout (talk) 11:41, 17 February 2011 (UTC) **Even if they are socks, they make some good points which should not be ignored simply because of who made them. Socks can raise valid points sometimes. A valid observation (talk) 13:21, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I moved it to Lio Prime from Lio Convoy following a request on RfPP to undo the most recent move. I've now moved it back to the October 2010 name, Leo Prime. The page can be moved again by an uninvolved admin once the RM is over, if that's the result of it. Cheers,  SlimVirgin  TALK |  CONTRIBS 02:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought he meant the first time it was moved to Lio Prime back whenever that happened. Sorry if there was confusion. --TriPredRavage (talk) 02:58, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It was probably moved to "Lio" Prime because of confusion over "Lio" Convoy or something innocent like that. The Matrix Prime (talk) 01:52, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * On a related note, I'm amused to discover that I'm considered the instigator of restoring this page to its proper name, acording to the article's history pages. But I'm not the one who first called this character Leo Prime. The Matrix Prime (talk) 01:57, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Move to character's most commonly used name by English speakers which is Lio Convoy, not Leo Prime. This move violates policy. Also it should be noted that TriPredRavage is misrepresenting the discussion on the WikiProject talk page: it concluded by saying "yes, they are the same guy". There was no agreement about what the article should be called. New York Sun (talk) 11:45, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Reverse this ridiculous move and send the article back to "Lio Convoy", which is the correct name. 200.175.3.99 (talk) 11:50, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It is my observation that TriPredRavage and The Matrix Prime are misrepresenting facts in the pursuit of this move. For example, the discussion on WT:WPTF did not conclude in a consensus for any title. Prior to User:Divebomb's proposal, no discussion ended in a consensus for any title. There was consensus for the move, and it is being ignored. Divebomb, despite being a sock of a banned user, had valid policy-based arguments for the move. The Matrix Prime ignored this and moved the page back. Such misbehaviour must be countered, therefore I vote move to Lio Convoy. Questions Left Unanswered (talk) 11:55, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There was no consensus for Divebomb's move. The editor simply moved the page, Since there were previous consensus for keeping it the same name, the page was restored, as Wiki policy. The Matrix Prime (talk) 22:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * NOTE - The 4 editors immediately above are confirmed as socks of each other. Very possibly all socks of the blocked user "The Circle That Must Be Broken", though checkuser has not confirmed that. The one below obviously is a sock also. In any case, the guy gets at most one vote here. See WP:ANI for some discussion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:39, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * True, but in this case none of them did. The Matrix Prime (talk) 22:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I do not find the arguments for the move convincing; I have studied the discussion and I have come to the conclusion that the article should be located at "Lio Convoy". Wiki policy states that the most prominently used name among English-speakers must be used. Thus far, you have failed to present any convincing arguments for the use of the name "Leo Prime".--Trash can of fortune (talk) 17:46, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The above is yet another sock, also now indef'd. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:50, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

**Let us look at this objectively, shall we? There are three American toys that bear the name of Leo Prime. There are five Japanese toys that bear the name of Lio Convoy. If Transformers is first and foremost a toyline, would this not mean that the article should be called Lio Convoy, especially since all the fiction featuring this character calls him Lio Convoy? When speaking of the character, fans call him Lio Convoy: only when speaking of the American toys do they use the name Leo Prime.
 * I don't know which is the most-used name for this, so I can only go by what people are posting here, and I can't see any consensus to move it from the October 2010 title, which is the current one. Am I right about that, or do others see a consensus to move it (and I mean a consensus among regular editors, not counting socks)? SlimVirgin  TALK |  CONTRIBS 03:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No consensus was made, as no discussion was held to move it to Lio Prime.  Further, that name has never existed in any way, shape, or form, so the move was in error.  Why the editor even moved the page to that name is unknown.--TriPredRavage (talk)
 * It was probably moved to "Lio" Prime because of confusion over "Lio" Convoy or something innocent like that. The Matrix Prime (talk) 22:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I would now like to challenge the argument made by User:Editor XXV in all its various forms. The only argument that this user has attempted to make is to discredit the significance of the three American toys of this character.  However, as we all know, Transformers is first and foremost a toyline, and a comic book/television series/film series second.  The entire franchise started as a toyline, which later had comic books and the original animated series (in that order) develop the characters of said toyline.  This user’s claim of the three figures “being insignificant” is incorrect, as without the toyline, Transformers would have never come to be.  Thus, in actuality, the toys are the most significant part of this argument.  Beyond that, this user’s posts have made no argument, and has instead resorted to attacking the integrity of the users it disagrees with and has resorted to spamming/trolling this talk page with sock puppet accounts and posts based solely on its opinion. --TriPredRavage (talk) 13:23, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Now let's examine the Google-hits that are held in such high regard by the supporters of the Leo Prime name. Upon examination, they are all about the toys: none call the character Leo Prime. We must therefore conclude that Leo Prime is a name used only when referring to the toys, not to the character in question.
 * Now, as for your claim that I have made no argument, it is false, as I have made many arguments. I have, for example, disproven your false claim that a discussion was held on WT:WPTF that concluded with a decision that the article should in fact be named Leo Prime. I have also cited relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines that back-up my points.
 * There is no consensus here, so we should revert to the result of the last (and only) discussion that ended in a consensus: that result is Lio Convoy. You have lost the debate: accept that and stop beating the dead horse. Neimoidian (talk) 12:01, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The above is still another sock, duly reported to admins for processing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so here's a serious question: have we reached consensus? If I am not mistaken, there is a rule that after so much time, if there is no opposition, then consensus is considered achieved. Seeing as the only opposition has been by sock puppets of a banned user, thus making all of the user's remarks after the initial opposition invalid and ignored, there hasn't been any opposition to the name of the page being Leo Prime since February 17, nearly a month and a half ago. So has enough time passed that we are agreed in the name, or do we still have longer to wait? Also, will we be upholding what we discussed before that in reaching consensus, the page will be locked on that name for at least a year? --TriPredRavage (talk) 14:51, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what the socks problem is, Prime is the English translation of Convoy. Its always been so. The Matrix Prime (talk) 22:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it is not. Convoy is the Japanese name for Optimus Prime sure, but you can't make a one for one replacement in every name. Consider Vector Prime who is Vector Prime in Japan. Also, would you want to see Big Convoy moved to Big Prime? I don't think so. Mathewignash (talk) 21:59, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well in Vector Prime's case he has the Prime name already (a rare case) as for Big Convoy the model was actually repainted and placed in the Universe toyline as Nemesis Prime. A different character - but still a called "Prime" and not "Convoy". My point was that any time a "Convoy" character is translated for Western collectors or fans or audiences its always renamed "Prime". I can't think of one instance where this is not so. The Matrix Prime (talk) 15:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, at this point I have to ask an ignorant question: Be it Lio or Leo, it's depicted as a lion, right? Regardless, it's a well-known fact that Japanese do not do very well with the letter L. So why would they name a character having a letter L, and how would they pronounce it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The Japanese naming system for the Primes (or in their case Convoys) is notoriously simple. Another character they made was named Big Convoy; the name of the Convoy from Transformers: Galaxy Force was named Galaxy Convoy, so the reason that the character's name was Lio Convoy in Japanese is honestly and simply because he transformed into a lion.  Their pronunciation of the name is actually most similar to "Rio Comboy." --TriPredRavage (talk) 00:43, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It's Lio Convoy in Japan, as in LIOn, but in the US they spelled in LEO Prime, as in Panthera LEO, the scientific name of the lion. Mathewignash (talk) 00:55, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. It's a transliteration of "Leo" or of "Lion" into Japanese, and then they lose the "L". (That's why baseball is called "ba-sey-bah-roo" or some such.) OK, so what has "Convoy" got to do with "Prime"? In English, those words have no obvious connection. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In Japan the toy that we call Optimus Prime was called "Convoy" because it was a big rig truck ("We got a big old convoy rolling throught the night!" Yep, it's THAT sort of Convoy). So when they started making characters who looked like Optimus Prime or were leaders of the Autobot, often Japan kept the name Convoy, or used it in their names. So a character who was a lion that turned into a robot that looked like Optimus Prime, it was called "Lio Convoy" in Japan.Mathewignash (talk) 01:11, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This is for the most part true, whith only a handful of exceptions. Namely Rodimus Prime, who bares no resemblence to Optimus Prime at all, was named Rodimus Convoy in Japan.  It tends to be characters who carry a Matrix of some kind are Convoys, but even that isn't always the case.  A case and point of this is the character Optimus Primal (who is not a Prime, and does not have a Matrix in English continuity) was named Convoy in Japanese due to his resemblence to Optimus Prime, and so, in their continuity, does have a Matrix of his own. --TriPredRavage (talk) 01:22, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've always felt that Optimus Primal was a goof on the part of whoever was responible to translating the show in Japanese. Or someone doing POV-pushing (if you will). I mean its obivious from the context of the show that he's neither the original Optimus nor does he have the Matrix. It's always been unclear to me why the decision was made (by whoever it was) not to rename him "Ape Convoy" or something. The Matrix Prime (talk) 15:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Google hits
In case it helps:
 * Leo Prime: 109,000
 * Lio Convoy: 84,400

SlimVirgin TALK |  CONTRIBS 12:28, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Current use
In the last US comic book appearance of the character, by IDW Comics, he was called Lio Convoy. So it's his CURRENT name in ENGLISH SPEAKING fiction. http://books.google.com/books?id=8wPl8cJ_y-EC&pg=RA1-PA82&dq=Lio+Convoy&hl=en&ei=c79fTeHnJsihtwetvZDdCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Lio%20Convoy&f=false Mathewignash (talk) 13:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This is incorrect. The sourcebook was published in 2007.  The current use is Leo Prime as stated in the character biographies on the toys' boxes, which were produced in 2009.  To discredit the toy bios as fiction is foolish, as they acknowledge the comic book fiction in question and also expand upon it by solidifing the character's existence in the English Beast Wars timeline. Therefore, the most current and recent English speaking fiction is the toy's bio. --TriPredRavage (talk) 14:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Manga
Do we really need the Manga section? Or rather, do we need the text that's in it? All that's there is one chapter from the Manga, and it's not even a chapter that has really anything to do with Leo Prime at all. It just seems unnecessary all together, honestly. While I do think having a Manga section is important, if we don't have anything that actually has to do specifically with the character, we may want to consider removing it, or revising it. --TriPredRavage (talk) 14:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that section could use some work. A summary of the entire Manga story arc would be better. The Matrix Prime (talk) 15:11, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Seriously though
Do we have a source saying Lio Convoy and Leo Prime are the same? All I've seen so far is stuff that can be interpreted in a number of ways. YourDefiance (talk) 20:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * What ID or ID's did you used to edit under? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:29, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I could easily ask you the same thing. You joined on 19 May 2007. Within half an hour you were using edit summaries such as "rvv". The next day, you were uploading properly licensed images. Quack quack, anyone?YourDefiance (talk) 13:42, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I began under a different user ID a couple of years earlier, which you can easily figure out if you try. So back to you: What previous ID or ID's have you edited under? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I did not edit under any ID's other than this one, but I have been following Wikipedia for some time now. It does not take a genius to find out about the policies. YourDefiance (talk) 14:16, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Defiance has been indef'd as another sock of. -- ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:38, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Seriously? Is this really a serious question? Is there any valid reason for questioning whether or not Leo Prime is the Japanese name for Lio Convoy? Espically in the face of the obivious?The Matrix Prime (talk) 00:48, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes there is: the fact that none of the evidence satisfies Wikipedia policies and guidelines. The fact that something is "obvious" is not a free pass for inclusion. --UnstableBiosphere (talk) 12:17, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above would be the latest of Editor XXV's creations. He has more socks than Hanes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:38, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Separate Page
So...does anyone think that there's enough Lio Convoy/Leo Prime media out there that he merits his own article again?OptimusMagnus (talk) 03:35, 29 November 2015 (UTC)