Talk:Leo V of Armenia

Untitled
I believe Leo VI was not originally buried in Saint Denis - the effigy was transferred to Saint Denis in the 19c, from the demolished Eglise des Celestins in Paris.


 * I'd love to know the source for the above unsigned comment. (That is, how does he/she come to believe this?) Xenophon777 22:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I just found the same information in Mutafian, and inserted the details in the article. Regards. PHG (talk) 20:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move
"Levon" is not typical English, that would be "Leo". The "Lusignan" surname is also an oddity, since no other Armenian monarchs have a surname in their article titles and it is against Wikipedia policy. Srnec (talk) 04:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Should it be Leo or Leon? —  AjaxSmack   06:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I encounter more Leos than Leons in my reading. "Leo" is the typical form of the Greek name, no? I would also move all the "Gosdantin" articles to "Constantine". Srnec (talk) 00:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I just noticed that the other Western European interwikis use "Leon" although German uses Leo for one of the other Levons. The external links are mixed.  I'm not sure it matters but both Leo and Leon are derived from the same meaning ("lion")" Leo is from Latin and Leon is from Ancient Greek Λέων.  (The Armenian derived form the Greek.)  Other citations for Leo you would add? —   AjaxSmack    07:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that we shouldn't use the surname but i'm not convinced that using the most common English form of the name is necessary. --  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 20:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support move; we use Leo for even the least Latinate of the Byzantine Emperors, see Leo III the Isaurian; and mixing Levon with French Lusignan in the same name is unnatural and unidiomatic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The French at Wikipedia are using Léon VI de Lusignan (although the article is titled Léon VI d'Arménie). Is there any authority on the subject? —   AjaxSmack   08:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the French for Leo; compare fr:Léon III (empereur byzantin). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree but you spoke of the unsettling feeling of mixing Armenian and French so I went with French and French. I don't have an answer here and would only point out that the Armenian name arrived via the Greeks.  Some scholarly references as guidance would be nice if they exist. —   AjaxSmack   18:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose Agree the current name is not satisfactory, but the move will bring it out of line with other Armenian Leos. I'm always being told how standardisation is good for the sake of it, but that aside I don't like the idea of giving the impression people had different names when they didn't. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 21:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This is precisely why all the pages should be moved to "Leo" instead of Levon. I requested a move for this one b/c of the "Lusignan", but I wasn't going to suggest moving it to "Levon" when I preferred Leo. If anybody is looking for published sources for Leo V, here are a few revealed by Google: The Later Crusades by Norman Housley, The Kingdom of Cyprus and the Crusades by Peter Edbury, The Armenians by Anne Redgate, and The Hundred Years War by Robin Neillands. All of these books are recent (1991 or later) and deal directly with the topic save the last one. The first two are scholarly and footnoted, the last two are general. Non-Armenian-related works seem to favour "Leo" more than Armenian ones. Srnec (talk) 06:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no preference really, i'm fine with Leo, Leon or Levon. There just is no other argument other than saying Leo is used more often in English texts. See how Palaiologos is used instead of the more common Palaeologus.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 16:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. The present title is very cumbersome. Deb (talk) 19:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Since everyone agreed regarding the removal of the Lusignan from the article name I made the move and fixed the double redirects.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 19:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Impressive list of sources from User:Srnec and, barring an impressive counterargument to come, support the move. But what about the other Levons and the other Armenian monarchs? The Rubens are at their English names but what about the Constantines, Thoroses, Isabellas, Sempads, and Hethums? Maybe this move request should be enlarged since some of the current titles also violate WP:NCNT. (It would seem that T. S. R. Boase's The Cilician Kingdom of Armenia cited at List of monarchs of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia would also support the English names.) —  AjaxSmack    03:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, I'm here from requested moves looking to close out this request. I see that a move has already been made from the title with "Lusignan" in it. The question of whether to call him "Levon" or "Leon" or "Leo" still seems to be open. Is there a consensus that one of those three will be best? Am I reading correctly from the above that "Leo" is the most common in English language sources? -GTBacchus(talk) 19:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Leo V of Armenia, or Leo V, King of Armenia. Best known format in English and systematics reasons, see NC for christian monarchs. Shilkanni (talk) 23:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It appears that six five users (including the nominator and myself) generally support the move as originally proposed and four specifically support the move to Leo. One user opposes the move to Leo and one is opposing, waiting for a comprehensive solution. The sources listed by the nominator support the use of Leo in English and are viewable at Google Books:. Of course some others use Leon  but a choice must be made. —  AjaxSmack   23:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards an oppose, unless a general consensus can be established for the naming of all Cilician rulers. Btw common English names have been rejected in favor of other names for other contemporary rulers before: Talk:List of Byzantine Emperors/naming--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 16:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I had planned to propose such a thing but after this RM had run it its course since it was already pretty far along when I noticed the inconsistencies. When (or if) I do, I will notify all participants here.  Or you can get it started if you like.  —   AjaxSmack    20:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

All interested parties are directed to User:Srnec/Kings of Cilicia. Srnec (talk) 21:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Shall we put this move request on hold while that discussion goes on? It would seem convenient to deal with them all at once, I think. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I will just go ahead and do the moves I suggested at User:Srnec/Kings of Cilicia unless I get any objections here/there/on my talk page. Or unless you, admin, tell me is "unwise". If so, can you please tell me where you think it best to propose those moves? Srnec (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it would be best to get a bit more input before moving pages. Why not post links at WP:NCNT and WikiProject Armenia to your proposal? The more people see it before you move anything, the more likely the moves will stick. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Leon IV Lusignan.jpeg
Image:Leon IV Lusignan.jpeg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Soldane
Hi there. Identification of Lusignan's mother as a "daughter of King George V of Georgia" is highly problematic. The only source of "madame Soldanne"'s Georgian provenance is Jean Dardel's chronicle, which says that she was a "daughter of a king of Georgians", but gives no further details. She is otherwise unknown in contemporary sources. Several modern scholars have questioned the authenticity of this part of Dardel's account and Rüdt-Collenberg has gone further, claiming that Dardel actually invented Leo's Georgian mother in order to conceal his being an illegitimate son of Jean de Lusignan. Is there any credible source supporting the genealogy given here? --KoberTalk 18:04, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress
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