Talk:Les Demoiselles d'Avignon

Title?
Can someone give a translation of the title? I can guess, but then, I don't know French. Identity0 09:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it just means "the women of Avignon" --Astrokey 44 09:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I used an online translator, and it says that it's "The Young Ladies of Avignon." Should I add this to the article? Computerwiz908 13:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

yeah, it means the young ladies of avignon, which is a place in france. 203.213.142.104 03:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * La Demoiselle is an unmarried woman, so yes at that time it usually meant young woman as older women would be married. The Avignon mentioned in the title doesn't refer to the town in France but rather to a street in Barcelona (the city where Picasso lived for a while), on which a large brothel was situated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.61.18.11 (talk) 11:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

'Demoiselle' carries a slightly derogatory sense in the vernacular, then as now, much like 'broad' or 'chick' - it's not a word you would use about an irreproachably respectable young lady. The title was not Picasso's, but given to the painting in the catalogue when it was first displayed in public by the organiser. The exhibition was in France for a French audience, so it seems reasonable that he had the French town of Avignon in mind, rather than an obscure brothel in Barcelona. Fairlightseven 25/05/2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fairlightseven (talk • contribs) 15:17, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Origin
I have not read it myself, but I understand that William Rubin's book The Genesis of Les Demoiselles D'Avignon, he outlines a theory that the disfigurement is inspired by syphilis victims rather than african masks, which were not available in europe until 10 years later. [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE5DF1E3EF933A05757C0A963958260 here is a link to a review of this book. ] Zmbe 05:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In the Private Life of a Masterpiece episode on this work, the African tribal mask issue is discussed. Apparently Picasso denied the link, and denied ever seeing them - "African art, never heard of it." Nonetheless, he is known to have seen African tribal masks while working on the painting. From the documentary, "While working on the painting, Picasso made a visit to the Ethnographical Museum of the Trocadero." and they include a quote from Picasso about viewing African tribal masks there, "When I went to the Trocadero, it was disgusting. The flea market, the smell. I was all alone. I wanted to get away, but I didn't leave. I stayed, I stayed. I understood that it was very important. Something was happening to me, right. The masks weren't like any other pieces of sculpture, not at all. They were magic things."


 * Anyway, I just made a tiny change so that this article would link up with the African tribal masks article. I'll leave it to somebody who knows art to elaborate further.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.248.181.238 (talk) 21:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

^I think it is very important to link this page to the influence of African Art. Note, I initially was working on wikipedia as AlexaCiv, but forgot the password and have switched to this account. The sources where I am pulling information regarding the influence of African Art on Picasso come mainly from the text found at The Picasso Museum in Paris as well as in Dennis Duerden's essay The 'Discovery' of the African Mask.

an alternate image
Image:Chicks-from-avignon.jpg needs re-tagging, but it's still available should anyone wants to use it. It has cuter filename, and shows a different (better, IMHO) color contrast than Image:Les Demoiselles d'Avignon.jpg. -- PFHLai 00:57, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

^just want say that "Chicks from avignon" is not a cuter filename, though it does fall in line with what 'desmoiselles' is taken for in France. Thus, while correct, 'chicks' is generally considered to be derogatory not 'cute.'

nonsense text
..suggesting the work as a meditation on the danger of sex, the, to a phrase of Rosalind Krauss's invention, "trauma of the gaze", and the threat of violence inherent in the scene and sexual relations at large.

I would correct it, but I'm not even sure what the transition is supposed to be. 130.18.55.228 21:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Reaction to Matisse?
In it is claimed that Les Demoiselles d'Avignon was in part a reaction to Henri Matisse's Le Bonheur de Vivre and The Blue Nude. This claim comes from Matisse's biographer, but I'm not sure whether mainstream art historians would agree. AxelBoldt 22:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In his 1992 essay Reflections on Matisse Hilton Kramer makes the case persuasively. - Modernist 14:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll add it. AxelBoldt 03:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Sections
We probably should add a Description section; which will be interesting...and eventually a Legacy section..Modernist (talk) 23:19, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Tied up, Modernist, I want to write these sections up together, but I need time! Ceoil (talk) 00:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

No rush..just making notes so I don't forget...Modernist (talk) 01:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The background section needs a succinct summary of where Picasso's style had got to when he began work on DdA. Johnbod (talk) 18:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea Johnbod I like the idea of a succinct style section..I think there also might be a section on Gauguin and primitivism in background too. I suspect that Picasso through Vollard knew a great deal about Gauguin's work..I still want to finish stuff about Cubism and Cezanne...Modernist (talk) 19:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I've added Background and Impact and the subsections in Background...Picasso the painter, Rivalry with Matisse, El Greco, Cezanne and Cubism, Gauguin and Primitivism, and Public view in Impact...Modernist (talk) 13:13, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Oviri
Good to see Oviri...things begin to take shape..Modernist (talk) 22:18, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Aye aye, Capt'n. Ceoil (talk) 22:41, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Iberian Pre-Roman Sculpture
I linked this to Iberian Pre-Romanesque art and architecture, but upon consideration its not the same thing at all. In fact, we really don't have an article that deals with those reliefs. After looking at es:Arte en España (so much more comprehensive than our Spanish art!) I see that the Spanish wikipedia has several specialized articles like: es:Escultura ibérica and es:Arte ibérico I might try my hand at translating one or both of those, if I have the time...  Litho  derm  17:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again, good find. I agree those are weak links...Modernist (talk) 17:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * ...and Iberian sculpture is up...  Litho  derm  03:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice job...Modernist (talk) 03:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

700 Studies
A section on the studies and the preparation, changes and creation of Demoiselles is needed. At first Picasso had included a couple of male visitors to the brothel in his studies, and then they were removed; he made multiple studies using Fernande and other women as models. The squatting woman as Fernande; the face changes; the focus on sex and a brothel. Wm Rubin talks about fear of syphillis and gonorhhea as a motivating factor...Modernist (talk) 11:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Spam?
This photo of Five Suicide Girls looks like a piece of shit, at least in the reproduction, what is this nonsense doing here?--Radh (talk) 19:01, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, removed. Ceoil (talk) 19:08, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Racist Implications
Hey,
 * Moved by Coldcreation from User talk:Coldcreation. This is where the discussion belongs. Ceoil (talk) 19:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I edited the line of your article that equates Africa with savagery, because it has racist implications. Artists like Picasso felt inspired by African masks and the like because they (wrongly) believed it was simplistic and representative of primitive urges. So, instead of saying, "Oh African masks, so that's why the women in the brothel painting look savage," it should say something like "Two women in the painting have African masks as faces, which many Western artists believed at the time was connoted with savagery."

If you don't like the way I write it, fine, but what is written now ignores the cultural appropriation that occurred, and demeans African art as being "savage." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.236.218.67 (talk) 14:19, 9 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The racial primitivism evoked in African masks, according to Picasso, moved him to "liberate an utterly original artistic style of compelling, even savage force." (See Sam Hunter and John Jacobus, Modern Art, Prentice-Hall, New York, 1977, pp. 135, 136) and (Gina M. Rossetti, Imagining the Primitive in Naturalist and Modernist Literature, University of Missouri Press, 2006, ISBN 0826265030). Coldcreation (talk) 20:46, 9 December 2014 (UTC)


 * One more point: These were not racist implications, if anything, they were racial implications. Coldcreation (talk) 20:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

To an editor a thousand years hence
If you are reading this, I guess you are interested in improving this article. I reviewed it for GA status and found that it would easily have passed with a little attention from a willing editor. If that's now you, I'd encourage you to read the GA2 comments and see if you can resolve them – it shouldn't be difficult. The article ought then to pass GA without difficulty; if I'm still around, feel free to ping me. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:52, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

(with apologies to James Elroy Flecker)

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Feminist interpretation
At 06:45, 10 December 2016‎, user:MikeTwigs added the Feminist interpretation section to this article, beginning with speculation from an "anonymous source" suggesting that "in 1907 Picasso had contracted VD and painted the Demoiselles to vent his rage against women". The rest of the text is based on more speculation of sexism and other unsubstantiated claims. The text is now removed. In my edit summary I wrote: Belongs in a separate article about feminism. Upon further reflection, this would be a disservice to readers interested in learning about Picasso's life and work. Note, the current Interpretation section deals with the topic (see Leo Steinberg) satisfactorily. Coldcreation (talk) 08:01, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Recent edit in lead
Suzanne Blier, in the introduction to Picasso's Demoiselles, the Untold Origins of a Modern Masterpiece, writes: "Most scholars today see Pablo Picasso's iconic painting Les Demoiselles d'Avignon' as a work about five prostitutes …. While it is important not to limit the work to a simple brothel scene, … what I am arguing here is for a richer, broader way to look at this canvas (not only about sex acts) that is not a simple displacement of one meaning (or reading) for a different one." Later she writes that the painting's first title (Mon Bordel) may have been a play on words ("bordel" having a second meaning, "mess"): "The early title Mon Bordel emphasizes the 'mess' or 'complex situation' that Picasso was grappling with, as much as, if not more than, a traditional bordello." (p. 23) So the traditional reading is not rejected even as a broader interpretation is proposed. I think "portrays five nude female prostitutes" is fine; "has been said to portray five nude female prostitutes" suggests that this is not the consensus interpretation. Ewulp (talk) 11:49, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I can see nothing wrong with "portrays five nude female prostitutes". This is the consensus of multiple RS. To change it because of one recent author's opinion is WP:UNDUE. --John B123 (talk) 18:34, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In my opinion "portrays five nude female prostitutes", is correct and remains correct...Modernist (talk) 02:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * After all, in addition to the street in Barcelona after which the painting was named being known for it's brothels, Picasso himself referred to Les Demoiselles (in 1916) as his Brothel painting, calling it Le Bordel d'Avignon (and Le Bordel Philosophique). Coldcreation (talk) 07:50, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Subject matter. Is this painting a depiction of a brothel? are the women in it prostitutes? Whitemill33

While Leo Steinberg built his 1973 analysis of the painting around this brothel idea, this is not supported by all scholars - or the facts themselves. -Picasso never acknowledged this was a brothel - or even Avignon St. in Barcelona ; Avignon could mean several things (including the County of Avignon known well to both Picasso and Apollinaire (who were reading the Marquis de Sade). But this is not my main point.

-Picasso never acknowledged the women are prostitutes. The current name was accorded the painting after the fact. -in French Le Bordel means NOT a brothel (which is called un maison clos) but it means a mess, a complex situation. -The earlier title (after the ptng was long finished - was Le Bordel Philosophique (the title of Steinberg's essay). This translates as "The philosophical mess, or the complex philosophical situation. Even for those wanting to mis-translate Le Bordel as a brothel, this would mean "The philosophical brothel" - meaning not a physical, actual brothel where women encounter men. And, why dress one in Egyptian clothing? -Nothing in the painted setting in which the 5 women appear looks like a brothel - and many times in this era Picasso did do actual settings. -Alfred Barr does not discuss this as a brothel scene - and he was in contact with Picasso; Suzanne Blier argues the scene addresses the issue of evolution current at the time, and the women evoke different geographical places of origins as well as the idea of motherhood, genealogy more generally -Note also that three of the five women are not nude - two are in classic attire -cloths draped around their wastes; one is wearing clothing typical of ancient Egypt and/or SE Asia.

I propose changing the first sentence from the current "The work, part of the permanent collection of the Museum of Modern Art, portrays five nude female prostitutes in a brothel on Carrer d'Avinyó (translated into Spanish: Calle de Aviñón [es]), a street in Barcelona."

to read instead, "The work, part of the permanent collection of the Museum of Modern Art, portrays five nude and nearly nude females in what some have identified as a brothel on Carrer d'Avinyó (translated into Spanish: Calle de Aviñón [es]), a street in Barcelona." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitemill33 (talk • contribs) 15:27, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You are mistaken. Bordel in French has several meanings, one which is a brothel. See the French Wikipedia redirect for example, and sources within: Un lupanar, maison close, ou bordel, est un établissement offrant le service de prostituées. See too fr.wiktionary Bordel: (Populaire) (Sexualité) Établissement où se pratique la prostitution. Coldcreation (talk) 17:47, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * You might also want to take a look at this source: Anne Baldassari (directrice du musée national Picasso, Paris), Demoiselles d'Avignon, Pablo Picasso, Recueil des Commémorations nationales 2007, France Archives, Portail National des Archives: "André Salmon, qui en 1912 en avait mentionné pour la première fois l'existence sous l'appellation Le Bordel philosophique, donna à la toile ce nom de Demoiselles d'Avignon sous lequel elle est passée à l'histoire bien que Picasso ne l'ait jamais fait sien, rappelant que son nom d’origine était plus explicitement Le Bordel d'Avignon et se référait, par jeu, à la Carrer d'Avinyo, rue du vieux Barcelone où, dans sa jeunesse, il achetait ses couleurs."Coldcreation (talk) 18:00, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * To quote Picasso biographer John Richardson: No Twentieth-Century Painting Has Attracted more attention than Picasso's great brothel composition of 1907, Les Demoiselles d'Avignon five confrontational whores posed theatrically on a little stage, framed by draperies, dark red on the left, blue on the right....he then says: men do not go to brothels to eat fruit....I believe Richardson...and Picasso however politically incorrect...Modernist (talk) 19:26, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

--As a general term, and in common French language speech in 1906 and today le bordel means/meant "a mess." https://www.thelocal.fr/20190212/expression-of-the-day-cest-le-bordel.. Salmon is referring to this here as a "philosophical mess" (a complex situation/theme - not a philosophical bordello). Baldassari, Richardson and others are following Steinberg (1973). Baldassari is more interested in his use of postcards; Richardson is more interested in his biography. Barr did not refer to the setting as a brothel, nor do key sources of the period. And FWIW three of the women are clothed. But I see we are getting no where here. Whitemill33.
 * Stop this nonsense now; make no mistake Richardson knew and spoke with Picasso...He lived with Douglas Cooper (major collector of Picasso's cubist work) in the south of France where Picasso lived as well; and they were all friends...Modernist (talk) 20:23, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't appreciate your attacking me and the facts I presented as "nonsense." Of course Richardson knew Picasso and lived with Cooper (and gave him works) - but this was much later. So the painting will remain a bit longer as 5 nude prostitutes (even though 3 of them are clothed and the meaning of the term bordel is debated). Fortunately wikipedia changes over time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitemill33 (talk • contribs) 20:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Read this WP:CONSENSUS and get over it...Modernist (talk) 20:58, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Please read the New York Museum of Modern Art notes on the work. The museum not only has the painting, but also the preparatory sketches Picasso made. It was clearly meant by Picasso to be a brothel interior, and in the initial sketch the figure on the left was a medical student entering the brothel. --John B123 (talk) 21:04, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Happy to move on (re consensus). Correction though - these are NOT five nude women (3 are clothed - and highly strange to have prostitutes shown in ancient Egyptian dress and classical Greco-Roman attire. The term bordel meant in 1906 (and today) primarily a "mess" or "complexity" and Picasso and others of the era and later do not all agree Avignon refers here to Barcelona. Plus large majority of the preparatory sketchbooks are in Paris; and in this sketch (and others) there no evidence the medical student is entering a brothel; nor is there any evidence that the "sailor" is seated in a brothel (in other sketches). At some point this will be corrected when someone has the time tolook at the painting and the source materials — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitemill33 (talk • contribs) 23:29, 3 January 2021 (UTC)