Talk:Lesbian until graduation/Archive 1

Comment
Article doesn't mention the rather straightforward possibility that LUGs are either lesbian or bisexual in preferernce but choose to become exclusively straight when moving into a period of life where they are seeking a "normal" existence with a husband and children.

Surely this is an article for urban dictionary rather than wikipedia?!?

not really encyclopedic &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wetman (talk &bull; contribs). April 5, 2004

Added TotallyDisputed because right now, the article sounds rather pejorative. It is unclear who uses that term how, and who makes what out of this alleged phenomenon. -- AlexR 22:18, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The state this is in it dosen't seem encyclopedic. Added the cleanup header. Ghost Freeman | Talk 23:39, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Just because you haven't heard of it does not mean it does not exist, it is a term that is used in North America and esp in America since many self described heterosexual kids are experimenting with same sex behaviour and also starting gay/lesbian relationships while in college/university. Time Magazine covered this 'phenomenon' and used the phrasing - i'll try to find the article.ShaunMacPherson 23:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * The phenomenon of young people experimienting with their sexuality is not exactly new; the "homosexual pahse" during puberty was old news when I was in puberty - and that has been a while. I did however, not being a US-american, ask around what others thought about this article, and they agreed that the way it is now it sounds very pejorative. So instead of attacking me, why don't you fix the article? -- AlexR 01:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * As well you, AlexR, come across to me as combative. Not everyone is on a mission 'pejorative' to others or gay and lesbians in general. --ShaunMacPherson 23:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Since I have never claimed that "everybody" (or even a substantial number of people) is on such a mission, this comment seems to be somewhat pointless. -- AlexR 01:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Here is a relevant quotation from Time Magazine, Dec 8 1997. You'll need to pay to read the whole article here if it is not posted elsewhere.


 * There is, of course, some evidence that homosexuality is something of a fad among young people. On a few college campuses, the term "gay until graduation" is used derisively to describe those who experiment with gay sex. Gay equality has nonetheless become a '90s version of Birkenstock environmentalism for many youths. Even in certain parts of suburbia, gay is becoming more than O.K.; it's cool.


 * It should be called gay or lesbian until graduation or perhaps a similiar article title. --ShaunMacPherson 23:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I may point out that even time magazine calls "x until graduation" a derisive term, so most likely there is a better heading for this. Which was my point. -- AlexR 01:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, although that is the term as it is used and if the article is about the term, and not the concept of youth sexual exploration, then the title seems approperate. Such as the article Fag hag is about more the term and not the concept of heterosexual women befrending gay men. I have no problem creating a new article about youth experimentation or exploration in college.  However, this is starting to get into POV issues by censoring the name of the article because people may not like the term as it is used imo.


 * It is can be 'derisive' term and we have a factual basis for knowing it can be so from the article. We can incoroprate that perhaps using Fag hag or Nigger (word) as exemplars as a way to so effectively and still be NPOV.  As well this article is from 1997, since then I believe that it the word has coopted by the gay and lesbian community to be a word that is not necessarily derisive but realizes that sexuality is not black or white and people need the freedom to know and to explore who they are without labels. --ShaunMacPherson 01:40, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Excuse me, are we taking part in the same debate? Who tried to "censor" anything? And you ought to cite sources, "I believe" is not really the stuff we should build WP on, methinks. -- AlexR 08:19, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I always find sources for what I state, i.e. the article I found. Perhaps instead of just criticism you could go look for research yourself, as I am doing.  Incidently, if you were to read the summary edit: "Follow up, more research as to how the term is currently used? Article was from 1997, i think it has become less derisive since then but we should look for a factual backup to confirm" speaks for it self.--ShaunMacPherson 18:04, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The problem I see is that there's no sign of a corresponding Gay until graduation referring to males. Presumably it exists, but neither does this page admit, deny or even address the question. Rather, it just singles out females as the subset of people to bother telling us about. -- Smjg 30 June 2005 12:38 (UTC)


 * It singles women out because it is a real term that describes women. There is no corresponding term for males because they're different creatures who play in a slightly different world. Likwidshoe 11:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What's your source for this? Moreover, your telling me this doesn't alter the fact that the article doesn't address the question. -- Smjg 13:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have a source. You know, things do exist out in the world that don't have Wikipedia required sources. Men and women are different and are treated differently. That's just the way things are. Do you really need a source to see that? Likwidshoe 14:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe in your little corner of the world LUGs are all over the place and there are few enough males that you've managed to establish none are GUG. -- Smjg 01:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In my little corner of the world? I see that you're offended over a term that is used by people other than me. Grow up Smjg. Likwidshoe 01:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't be silly. The only reason I made that comment is that the only way I can see that you can have come to the conclusions implied by what you said is that it's like this somewhere or other and you've just assumed everywhere is the same.  Where I'm from, millions of people don't make a big show of their sexuality, and even more don't admit to being any orientation "until graduation" or anything to that effect. -- Smjg 15:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't assume any such thing. Of course it is different in different parts of the world. I'd be surprised if this slang term was used in Europe. All I can tell you is that, for better or worse, it's used in many college campuses in the states. And Smjg, I'm sorry to have to show you this, but they do make a big show where you live. Likwidshoe 09:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Guys are either gay or they're not, whereas girls are allowed to experiment. Likwidshoe 11:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Who made this rule, and to how much of the world does it apply? -- Smjg 13:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Nobody made up any rule. There is no rule. It's just the way things are. As to how much of the world it applies to, how am I supposed to know? Likwidshoe 14:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * After college, the peer approval of this behavior greatly diminishes while society's approval will only gradually diminish with time, wrinkles, and gray hair. Consequently, a lot of girls quit after college. And for them, it's just behavior. They were the lesbians until graduation. The term doesn't make too much sense because they were never really lesbians to begin with, but it exists nonetheless. Likwidshoe 11:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Removing middle paragraph
I removed this paragraph:


 * More specifically, the term LUG may be used to refer to a previously heterosexual woman, who due to either peer pressure or an affirming environment at a university may change her sexual orientation on a temporary basis. Many of these women find the lifestyle ultimately untenable or unsatisfying, and absent the supportive environment, lapse into their traditional, heterosexual orientation. In jest, it's usually used to refer to a vocal or militant lesbian on a university campus, with the understanding that their strong support is due to the novelty of the practice rather than any real devotion, and that it'll pass quickly in spite of their previously strong support of homosexuality.

This is really just conjecture and isn't relevant to the term or its usage (which should be the subject of the article). If any of these ideas can be substantiated with sources, then they should go into another article, such as Homosexuality. Demi T/C 08:00, 2005 Apr 21 (UTC)
 * Particularly, the idea that some sort of "temporal homosexuality" can be caused by peer pressure (and does that really exist?) or an affirming environment smells like the "choosen lifestyle" argument of those wishing to "cure" homosexuality. Therefore, such statements need backup by facts. -- AlexR 08:19, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The point of this idea seems, from what I've read on it, is that people are 'experimenting' with gay / lesbian relationships without the need to label themselves gay or lesbian. It is a rejection of the polar ideas of hetero / homo (or bi as a third category).  Kinsey's continum of sexual identity might be incorporated into the article as well then. --ShaunMacPherson 14:31, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I can see this as well as prison sexuality heteroflexible and homoflexible (and posibly others) under a common topic of "conditional sexual orientation" in which people, for various reasons, exhibit specific sexual behavior without it being a lifetime orientation. There are many examples of this and lots of documentation for someone who wants to tear into it - --Outlander 18:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

neutrality issue: 1) this isn't a "elite/ women's college" issue; the women's college suggestion is particularly offensive due to the implicit suggestion that women choose to have sex with some women because there are no men around (men are around), but rather are attracted to some women and fall in love with some women; orientation isn't a choice; it's about bisexual woman who want to be in a long-term monogamous relationship and choose the privileged group -heterosexual- over the minority group -homosexual- perhaps in hope of having a family; 2) it is common among LGBT folks to not tell their parents and family -it is a little stigmatized- and they may be unwilling to come-out until they have made a decision upon graduation; are any other "homos" (smile) writing about this page? it don't seem like it!!! &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.119.139.113 (talk &bull; contribs). 01:13, October 15, 2005

Anecdotal evidence
I was a physics geek at MIT, but I did get to see a bit of the world. Most importantly for the discussion here, I met more than a few Wellesley girls, so I can verify that the term and its variant "bisexual until graduation" are in active use. Not that this bit of original research is useful in any scholarly way, but I thought I'd just make it available. In my hearing at least, these descriptions were not used in a derogatory way, even by young women who viewed themselves as firmly homosexual.

Best wishes, Anville 12:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

this looks factual and accurate to me now. unless there's further comment or complaint i move we removed the totallydisputed. it seems clear to me that the term itself is used in a slightly or totally pejorative manner; it is used by lesbians to dis women that are only 'playing' at being lesbian. the current revision also notes that the term is also somewhat tongue-in-cheek. can we move along now? Slamorte 00:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I can confirm Anville's anecdote. I spoke once with a psychologist (a distant family member) who said her practice includes and affirms GLBT people, and that she has encountered more than one "Lesbian until Graduation." Their life 'story' is usually different from GLBT people (e.g., most GLBT people say that they felt that they were somehow 'different' from everyone else even from preschool years; LUGs don't usually have the same feelings), and some of them freely admit (to their psychologist, not to their parents) that they are choosing to present themselves as a lesbian in very much the same way that another person might choose to be a Goth. One -- yes, from an East Coast women's college -- described coming out as a lesbian to your parents as a rite of passage; it's just what was 'done' in her circle of friends. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.124.70.110 (talk &bull; contribs). 22:08, January 31, 2006

As more anecdotal evidence, I would like to add that I attended an all-girls high school where the term LUG was used humorously to describe many of the goings-on of girls in the dorm rooms. I don't know of other all-girls high schools which used this term, but I don't think it is uncommon.

Queer Theory
Should there be reference here to feminist/queer theory and fluidity of sexuality? It seems like there should. As an alternative theoretical perspective. (People do write papers on this stuff.) So, if I added a paragraph, would it be acceptable?


 * I noticed that this article seemed to be (in the majority of it's citations) at least 10 years out of date. I have tried to update it, but clearly more needs to be done.  While I haven't added the above mentioned paragraph, I have added an "also see" to the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid.  But I do second the notion that a more comprehensive discussion of same should be in there.


 * Also see no mention of the current self-identification as "Bi" on MySpace phenomena which seem to be prevalent from Junior-high on up regardless of what type of school environment people are in.


 * I also noticed that according to the statistics sited in the article, that 75% of persons so labeled actually retain a LGBT identity, which makes me wonder about much of the premises altogether. . . . CyntWorkStuff 23:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This is such a tricky issue. One issue that is not touched on in this article is this: For many women college is a time to adopt a bisexual self-identification as a transitory identity, prior to adopting a lesbian self-identification.  For these women they do not feel comfortable enough from their parents or society to come out as lesbians.  Eventually, perhaps after college, they shift from a bisexual identity to a lesbian one.  However, I want to stress that I am not jumping on the anti-bisexual bandwagon. There are papers on these issues...Arbol25 01:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The college factory?
Is this claptrappery encyclopedic?? I have been trying to comprehend these iniquitous articles, however I have never heard of any or most of these unnatural theories in most of these sexuality or orientation articles. My point being that this article needs to be deleted, not only is it bias, it is being used as a platform for other agendas. Perhaps the article should have a chart of how many young ladies becoming lesbians at some alarming rate, I mean until graduation.--Margrave1206 23:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Could you give please give some concrete examples of exactly where you find this article has gone wrong and how you envision we could all work together to make it more "encyclopedic". I'm also unclear about this "factory" stuff you mention. Thanks CyntWorkStuff 07:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Have you read what other people have stated? Do you feel this article is encyclopedic? I read the article and it leaves a lot of questions, is it truth, fiction, or an agenda. Or perhaps all the above. Would is the article trying to say. Via the article one could believe that lesbians are made in college, or are is it stating that most girls are lesbians, however could it be saying that colleges are lesbian factories? It might suite the article to have a graph or chart, well? These ideas, are not ones on finds in formal encyclopedias, until wiki I have not heard of such madness. Perhaps this is why some colleges in the states have reputations. One could imagine that there is less and less learned study and more buggery than other activities? I don't understand why you don't understand what we are saying. --Margrave1206 18:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It is a term that exists. No need to get offended over a poorly written article. Just know that if anything, the term stems from a positive connotation because it is used in societies that actually encourage lesbian behavior. The article, however, is all over the map and is not very encyclopedic with it's tone. Likwidshoe 12:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)