Talk:Leselidze (town)

Falsified
The history of the name "Gyachrypsh" is falsified. Village has been founded at the end of the 19th century by Russians. i am going to rewrite the article. Dlesel777 (talk) 15:57, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

This article is not balanced and does not meet wiki requirement of a neutral point of view. Dlesel777 (talk) 18:02, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Do you have any sources for you assertion that this history is wrong? Btw, I restored the reference with a working link. If in future you encounter a dead link, it is best not to delete it, and to search for an archived version using the Wayback Machine. sephia karta  |  dimmi  17:18, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you sephia karta  |  dimmi . i am working and found that it take time to write balanced article.

Dlesel777 (talk) 18:20, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Dlesel777 (talk) 13:01, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you Parishan for renaming the article. New text is still cooking.

Dlesel777 (talk) 14:40, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Text has been replaced with translation from the Russian wiki page Леселидзе (посёлок)

This should be moved in chronological order inside the article (in 1992 year):
 * “According to the Abkhazian historian Denis Chachkhalia, the site of Gyachrypsh was settled by early Abkhazians in ancient times. In the 7th century, Abkhazian Prince Gech owned the land, and from that time Gyachrypsh held the name of Gechripsh.”
 * 1) Denis Chachkhalia did not write that “In the 7th century, Abkhazian Prince Gech owned the land”. He wirites about 17 c.
 * 2) You can name any town Gyachrypsh in area between Adler and Gagra.
 * 3) Point here is that Russians founded village Yermolovsk on the empty land which use to be the land of tribe Gech. This is why it has Russian name. Even Denis Chachkhalia writes that Prince Gech’s settlement was on the right bank of the river Mzymta (Adler area in Russia).
 * 4) i suggest not to touch early history of this place because it is related to the history of Abzhazia and Circassia and not to this settlement. Otherwise you need mention Greeks, Georgians, Circassian, Turks, Russians etc. History of this place starts in 19 c.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlesel777 (talk • contribs) 15:36, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

If it is no objection then i'll make changes in the text tomorrow. Dlesel777 (talk) 13:50, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Has been changed. Dlesel777 (talk) 15:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Untitled
sorry, can someone indicate me the source of this info? - "In ancient times, early Abkhazians settled on the site of Gyachrypsh. In the 7th century, Abkhazian Prince Gech owned the land, and from that time Gyachrypsh held the name of Gechripsh. The names Gechkuaj and Gechiler were also in use at that time." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.212.62.195 (talk) 08:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Page move
Parishan, can I ask why you decided to move the page without any discussion, marking it as a 'minor' modification? I would have thought it clear from the context that this is a controversial issue.

In particular, I think that following WP:PLACE the article should remain at its old location. There is no widely accepted English name, and in the absence of that, the policy prefers names used by local authorities and inhabitants, and recent names rather than former names. sephia karta |  dimmi  14:08, 17 August 2012 (UTC) Here are 4 reasons why Leselidze has advantage over Gyachrypsh: Dlesel777 (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Because Georgian-Abkhazian-Russian conflict did not resolve yet we have two local names in this case.
 * 1) Leselidze is older (in use from 1944). Gyachrypsh is in use from 1992.
 * 2) Vast majority of the world (including all English speaking countries) recognise Georgia in the 1991 borders and Abkhazia as a part of Georgia.
 * 3) On the international maps this place marked Leselidze.
 * 4) Georgia is US and EU ally.
 * sephia_karta, I moved it because 'Gyachrypsh' is not a real name. The town has been known as Leselidze from the moment of its official renaming in 1944. It was occupied in 1992 by Abkhazian paramilitaries, and this is how the town came to be known as 'Gyachrypsh', which makes it clearly POV, because neither Georgia, nor the international community recognised the occupation and the so-called 'local authorities' you are referring to here. IDPs from Leselidze continue to refer to the town by its original pre-conflict name. Why is that ignored? There are at least two reasons to keep the article under 'Leselidze':
 * (a) The territory is officially under the Georgian jurisdiction, and the Georgian government did not rename the town;
 * (b) If we really want to go NPOV, the name of the town at the time of the conflict was Leselidze, and that is the name it should be referred to at least until the conflict is resolved. Parishan (talk) 04:40, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Whose jurisdiction the village is under is disputed, but this is not relevant to the issue. The local authorities that administer it, and the people that live there use Gyachrypsh. So since the village is too small to have a widely accepted English name, WP:PLACE tells us to use that. You assert that there are IDPs who continue to use Leselidze, but I have to ask whether there is any evidence for that, given that the village was and is primarily inhabited by Russians and Estonians, not Georgians.

I also dispute your claim that Leselidze is somehow a neutral pre-conflict name, since it was introduced in 1944 under Stalin during the height of the Georgification measures. It is also controversial because it honours a communist general (Konstantin Leselidze), and most localities in the former Soviet Union named after communists have since been renamed. Georgia itself has been very thorough in this regard (Mayakovski -> Baghdati, Gegechkori -> Martvili, Makharadze -> Ozurgeti, Orjonikidze -> Kharagauli, Tskhakaya -> Senaki, Shahumiani -> Shulaveri, Tsulukidze -> Khoni). In particular, Leselidze Street in Tbilisi has been renamed to Kote Afkhazi Street.

In the meantime, I ask again that you do not move the page before finding consensus. sephia karta |  dimmi  13:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "given that the village was and is primarily inhabited by Russians and Estonians, not Georgians". And not Abkhazians.
 * I only mentioned that in response to Parishan's claim that IDPs use Leselidze. sephia karta |  dimmi  18:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * here is the link to the website of the President of Georgia
 * Gyachrypsh is definetly not neutral. Place was forcefully renamed during the war in Abkhazia. In 1944 Abkhazia government initiated name change from Yermolovsk to Leselidze. Georgian government approved it. It was peaceful and legitimate.


 * `Forcefully renamed'? There was no force involved in the renaming. The decision to rename Yermolovosk taken in 1942 under Stalin, during the height of Georgification, was most certainly not free or `legitimate'. sephia karta  |  dimmi  18:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It was after 8 years after Russia handed up this piece of the land to Georgia-Abkhazia Yermolovosk has been renamed. No war was in this region since 1921. Dlesel777 (talk) 22:38, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * What is the problem with “communist general”? All presidents of Abkhazia (Vladislav Ardzinba, Sergei Bagapsh and Alexander Ankvab) were member of Communist Party – the same party general was. “Communist general” fought against Nazi Germany. He did not do anything bad to Abkhazians.


 * I agree. I also think Vladimir Mayakovsky was just a poet who did nothing bad. But nevertheless the Georgian government renamed Leselidze Street and Mayakovski. So my point is that for better or worse, these communist names are controversial. sephia karta  |  dimmi  18:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * They renamed only one of two streets in Tbilisi. They did not rename Leselidze Street in other 5 cities. Dlesel777 (talk)


 * sephia_karta could you explain what you mean when you say “Georgification measures”? Then i can argue with you. Dlesel777 (talk) 22:43, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, amongst other things, in the 1930s and 1940s, the Abkhaz language was outlawed in favour of Georgian and thousands of Georgians were settled in Abkhazia. This is generally accepted. See e.g. Thomas de Waal's The Caucasus. sephia karta  |  dimmi  18:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You need submit proof that is “general accepted”. You can not argue based on the book of one journalist. Where is the research on this topic? Dlesel777 (talk) 01:00, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is the evidence that local people use both Leselidze and Gyachrypsh. Google Intrenet with russian spelling of these names (леселидзе гечрипш) and you find houses for rent offers:

http://alahadze.ru/otdih-v-abhazii/6-Gechripsh

http://buysochi.ru/viewtopic.php?id=14385

http://vk.com/otdyh_abhazia

http://nafon.com/item/14343 Dlesel777 (talk) 18:16, 24 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Another evidence: http://www.geni.com/people/Roosi-Kerve-Vaarman/6000000011185146551 Dlesel777 (talk) 15:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

sephia_karta, the region is not disputed; it universally classified as a Georgian province currently under Russian occupation. According to Georgian naming database, there is no village by that name in Georgia. Dlesel777 already provided the link for that. I can provide more, if necessary.
 * If the status of Abkhazia weren't disputed, we wouldn't be having this discussion. sephia karta  |  dimmi  18:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

'Georgification' is not a word, and there was no such policy in the Soviet Union, either before or after Stalin.
 * See what I said above. Thomas de Waal's The Caucasus literally uses Georgianization policy to describe these events. sephia karta  |  dimmi  18:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

It does not matter what the ethnic make-up of the inhabitants was at the advent of the conflict. They were Georgian subjects as of 1992.
 * See above, I only brought this up because you claimed there were IDPs from Gyachripsh using Leselidze. sephia karta  |  dimmi  18:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Your assessment of the origin of the pre-conflict name as 'non-neutral' is also unacceptable. We are not here to analyse the etymology of toponyms and how they conform to our political stereotypes about communists or whoever. That is not what constitutes a non-neutral name. The issue of neutrality concerns only controversial cases, such as ethnic conflicts and regions claimed by more than one entity. Whatever Georgia's stance is on the existence of communism-derived names is its own business. You cannot simply speculate that Georgia would have frowned upon the name Leselidze, had it remained in full control of Abkhazia; it is not an argument.
 * I don't care about our political stereotypes about communists, the fact that the overwhelming majority of places named after communists have since been renamed demonstrates that these names are controversial. In fact, any political decision taken under Stalin is controversial in the same way that any political decision taken under Hitler is controversial. And since Leselidze was introduced during a period of Georgification, it fits even your description of controversial. sephia karta  |  dimmi  18:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

If there were not an English name for this village, why would satellite websites list it as Leselidze and not even mention 'Gyachrypsh' as an alternative name? WP:PLACE is not applicable here. The village was named Leselidze long before anyone else contested its belonging to Georgia. And there is not evidence that others referred to the village as 'Gyachrypsh' before the conflict. Clearly I cannot consider the reference to the "7th century settlement" serious, at least because it could not have been the same as the modern settlement which was founded on bare land, long after any traces of "Abkhazian prince Gech"'s residence had been gone (if there ever was any). Parishan (talk) 02:51, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Dlesel777 (talk) 17:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC) Dlesel777 (talk) 17:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Leselidze and Gyachrypsh are widely accepted English name. WP:PLACE suggests to consult Google Scholar and Google Books in order to find out is name widely accepted English name or not. On the both engines Leselidze (as town) is listed more that three times. Gyachrypsh is listed more than three times on the Google Books.
 * WP:PLACE suggests to use BGN (United States Board on Geographic Names) . BGN (http://geonames.usgs.gov/) shows place as Leselidze.
 * Dispute about neutral pre-conflict name can be dismissed because Wikipedia is not a battleground. See Policy: WP:What Wikipedia is not
 * I agree that the pre-1992 name is irrelevant. sephia karta |  dimmi  18:35, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * i do not agree. Dlesel777 (talk) 20:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC) You can not dispute based on "Georgification measures" because it is ideological topic and violates wiki policy. Wikipedia is not a battleground: WP:What Wikipedia is not. Dlesel777 (talk) 23:31, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

I think you need to double-check the definition of the word 'disputed territory' as used by politicians. Part of land that formally belongs to another state is not disputed. It is just a land claimed by another party. And there are UN resolutions describing Abkhazia as an occupied province of Georgia, not as a disputed territory.

The IDPs do use the word Leselidze. You have been shown evidence for that. If someone is Russian or Estonian, it does not mean they would not use the Georgian term, especially if it has been around for over 60 years. This is prejudice, and prejudice does not belong in Wikipedia.

The fact that anything happening during the communist era is controversial is your own POV. In that case, Volgograd, Donetsk, Tallinn, Ulyanovsk and names of many other cities across the former Soviet Union would be considered 'controversial'. It does not mean we should go around renaming them. And 'Georgiafication' is not a word. De Waal describes the Georgianization policy as a series of removals of ethnic Abkhazes from office. That does not apply to toponymy, especially of non-Abkhaz settlements. Claiming that is OR. You should either show a source clearly defining the toponymy change, or you do not have an argument.

P.S. When you reply to my message, please do so below and not in between paragraphs, because it confuses everyone. Parishan (talk) 17:15, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Also this place has been marked Leselidze in United States Board on Geographic Names (BGN) database:

Dlesel777 (talk) 14:52, 3 September 2012 (UTC)


 * If we do not have other dispute than consensus has been reached and we can move this page to the new location next week.

Dlesel777 (talk) 23:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The page has been moved to Leselidze.

Dlesel777 (talk) 18:08, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

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