Talk:Leslie Harpold

Discussion of article while in initial composition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Leslie_Harpold

Though I believe their judgment was uninformed and overhasty (as time has proved) as well as unkind ("blogger vanity"), those who removed the original article about Leslie did have some points which we should keep in mind in preparing this article. 1. This is Wikipedia, not a memorial. Maintain a NPOV. 2. The entry should reflect significant facts about Leslie's life and creations, not all facts. As she inspired so many to do, we should rise above the merely mildly interesting to focus on the important stuff. 3. The entry must credibly indicate the importance or significance of the subject. MetaGrrrl (talk) 04:56, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Leslie's notability clearly falls under "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors." MetaGrrrl (talk) 22:09, 3 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I've been hearing about her role in early blogging for 10 years now at conferences and meetups and have read her work. There's coverage of her work and her role in many good sources including in some still in print books about blogging. --Lizzard (talk) 23:02, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

At the bottom of this Talk page, in the section called "STUFF THAT WE SEEM TO NOW BE DONE WITH BUT WHICH WE HEREWITH PRESERVE FOR POSTERITY IS BELOW THIS LINE", I have created a new section called "Things that don't belong in the article but which we note here for anyone looking for more detail on Leslie's life and work". If you find something that is not significant enough for the Wikipedia article, please move it there so that anyone who wants to work on a memorial elsewhere can find it. Thank you! MetaGrrrl (talk) 19:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks so much to everyone who helped and cheered me on. The page is now live! MetaGrrrl (talk) 23:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I can help!
I have some experience writing new articles that "stick" and fixing articles to fit guidelines that were proposed for deletion, and I can help check for NPOV and sourcing problems whenever you would appreciate another set of eyes. I'll watchlist this; also feel free to put a note on my talk page when you'd like a check (it looks like you are actively working on drafting it at the moment). Dreamyshade (talk) 05:34, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Dreamyshade! Much appreciated! We will draft for several more days at least I suspect before it's ready for your kind attentions. MetaGrrrl (talk) 22:01, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

We also have an offer from Jessamyn for a polishing pass once the article is 75% of the way there. MetaGrrrl (talk) 20:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Since it took me a while to learn this fun thing, I'll share: after the article goes "live", anyone (including editors of the article) can nominate it for Did you know - it's a process for featuring good new articles on the Wikipedia homepage for a few hours, and it's not a huge amount of work to nominate an article. It's a nice way to show an article to a broader audience after putting a lot of work into it. Dreamyshade (talk) 01:56, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Regarding "removing wikipedia internal link around Michael Sippey's name. (How does he not have an article? Weird.)" - it's totally fine to choose to leave a red link to his name if he seems like he should have an article and doesn't have one yet. Red links can inspire other people to write new articles. Dreamyshade (talk) 21:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Good to know. One notability battle at a time. ;)MetaGrrrl (talk) 02:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Things that are already represented in the article or which don't belong in the article but which we note here for anyone looking for more detail on Leslie's life and work
"A Brief Catechism of Rock Shows, Part I" http://www.themorningnews.org/article/a-brief-catechism-of-rock-shows-part-i


 * "Commercial Alternative" CMJ New Music Monthly August 1999 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MetaGrrrl (talk • contribs) 01:20, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

"The Thread That Runs So True" cited by many people as describing the personal web they remember. http://web.archive.org/web/20040328035315/http://leslie.harpold.com/presents/000081the_thread_that_runs_so_true.html NEED TO PUT MORE CITES FOR THAT HERE but here's one mention: http://chneukirchen.org/blog/archive/2006/12/i-remember-leslie-harpold.htmlMetaGrrrl (talk) 01:31, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Smug Discussed in Web Redesign: Workflow that Works http://books.google.com/books?id=iQMoAQAAMAAJ&q=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fuV8VKDIKpbnoASBzILQCA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAzgK Mentioned in Blogs y Medios. Las Claves de Una Relacion de Interes Mutuo http://books.google.com/books?id=R4tVbTgDRycC&pg=PA45&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e_Z8VLuOA9axogTmvoG4DA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=%22Leslie%20Harpold%22&f=false but I don't speak Spanish so someone else needs to understand context here.

http://www.zeldman.com/15/leslief.html (And oh the poignancy of seeing this now "Leslie lives at: smug.com        fearless.net         hoopla.com". Really emphasizes the lesson Leslie taught us all re: having a will covering online writings.)

CHANGE TO NPOV: Leslie was a a beloved presence in the internet community.

Quoted in The Media Writer's Guide: Writing for Business and Educational Programs by William Van Nostran (2000), Acknowledged in Hacker's Guide to Navigator 4 by Dan Cradler (1997); Happy Cruelty Day!: Daily Celebrations of Quiet Desperation by Bob Powers (2006 and 2013); Don't Get Burned on eBay: How to Avoid Scams and Escape Bad Deals by Shauna Wright (2006); Creative Time: The Book: 33 Years of Public Art in New York by Anne Pasternak (2007); We Are All Adequite: the Intrepid Media 2007 Collection (2008); Cited in Blogs y Medios: Las Claves de Una Relacion de Interes Mutuo by Jose Manuel Noguera Vivo (2008); Say Everything: How Blogging Began, What It's Becoming, and Why It Matters by Scott Rosenberg (2009); Shauna Wright dedicated Don't Get Burned on eBay: How to Avoid Scams and Escape Bad Deals to her (among others) http://books.google.com/books?id=c1_SSSYPESUC&pg=PR12&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e_Z8VLuOA9axogTmvoG4DA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22Leslie%20Harpold%22&f=false Bob Powers acknowledged her in Happy Cruelty Day!: Daily Celebrations of Quiet Desperation http://books.google.com/books?id=ObO8BSfAgLUC&pg=PA403&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e_Z8VLuOA9axogTmvoG4DA&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=%22Leslie%20Harpold%22&f=false Joe Procopio http://books.google.com/books?id=Hlj6AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA137&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e_Z8VLuOA9axogTmvoG4DA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Leslie%20Harpold%22&f=false

http://5by5.tv/bigwebshow/23 Starting at 5:30 into the show. Paul Ford talking about her role and some specific people who were also influenced by her.

Hoopla http://webarchive.loc.gov/lcwa0001/20010922010018/http://www.hoopla.com/500/paddock/ http://memory.loc.gov/911/catalog/2479.html

Princess Winter-Spring-Summer-Fall http://web.archive.org/web/20070913235158/http://www.harpold.com/short/pwssf.html (Video of Leslie reading the story at Literary Kicks Summer Poetry Happening https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb3_rjRUGMc) http://www.litkicks.com/LeslieHarpold#.VIJdt9bHLvU

"Solid Reasoning" http://web.archive.org/web/20030628145230/http://www.harpold.com/500/paddock/00000137.html “Dancer on the Roof” http://web.archive.org/web/20030628192046/http://www.harpold.com/500/paddock/00000041.html “Selective Memory” http://web.archive.org/web/20030820185259/http://www.harpold.com/500/paddock/00000099.html “Picking the Right Backyard” http://web.archive.org/web/20030820091100/http://www.harpold.com/500/paddock/00000159.html "Not Drunk" http://web.archive.org/web/20040304050344/http://www.harpold.com/500/paddock/00000214.html "The Carpet Bagger" http://web.archive.org/web/20040211004133/http://www.harpold.com/500/paddock/00000190.html "If I Tell the Story" http://web.archive.org/web/20040228065805/http://www.harpold.com/500/paddock/00000016.html "On Carrying On" http://web.archive.org/web/20040212005814/http://www.harpold.com/500/paddock/00000087.html (& etc. http://web.archive.org/web/20040215150223/http://www.harpold.com/500/paddock/)

"Commercial Alternative" CMJ New Music Monthly Aug 1999 http://books.google.com/books?id=rikEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA71&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fuV8VKDIKpbnoASBzILQCA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=%22Leslie%20Harpold%22&f=false

"Site Seeing" The Independent Film & Video Monthly, Volume 27 http://books.google.com/books?id=M60qAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fuV8VKDIKpbnoASBzILQCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBDgK

http://web.archive.org/web/19980628045545/http://www.thefinger.com/digits/fistfuls/ff06/bird.html http://web.archive.org/web/20061208062447/http://www.harpold.com/luv.html

http://fray.com/is/leslie/

quoted re: decision to add multimedia in "Pulling the Plug-ins" CIO Jun 1, 1998 http://books.google.com/books?id=1goAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA30&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fuV8VKDIKpbnoASBzILQCA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=%22Leslie%20Harpold%22&f=false

http://archive.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2002/11/56156 (added in said section Qthrul (talk) 19:05, 12 December 2014 (UTC) )

https://web.archive.org/web/20020607191820/http://leslie.harpold.com/links.html https://web.archive.org/web/20020811134929/http://leslie.harpold.com/presents/000042.html https://web.archive.org/web/20030223151207/http://perpetualbeta.com/woifm/archive/001290.html http://www.metafilter.com/16299/Hooplacom-Stolen-Net-Sol-says-Oops-Not-Our-Problem

Contemporary writeups: Dean Allen's:  and Cory Doctorow's at Boing Boing

"Web community puts price on head of super highwayman VeriSign. Domain transfer madness at Hoopla.com" http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/05/14/web_community_puts_price/ VeriSign Dodges Fraud Messes http://web.archive.org/web/20071019223343/http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2003/06/59327

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/magazine/09Immortality-t.html?pagewanted=all

"Many years have passed since Leslie left us but I still remember her fondly and frequently. I often wonder how the social web and other media forms may have evolved differently had her keen insight been a part of the process." - Rick Schrager in comment on http://workbench.cadenhead.org/news/3090/remembering-leslie-harpold

Acknowledged as one of the artists in Creative Time: The Book: 33 Years of Public Art in New York http://books.google.com/books?id=zt1vRRkOlMAC&pg=PA274&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e_Z8VLuOA9axogTmvoG4DA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=harpold&f=false but it's unclear from the limited view on Google Books what piece or pieces are being referenced. This might be related to DWA's Banner Project.

http://weblog.muledesign.com/2006/12/thank_you_leslie_harpold.php http://sfist.com/2006/12/13/goodbye_leslie_harpold.php http://www.rebeccablood.net/archive/2006/12/leslie_harpold_rip.html http://www.flaunt.net/ http://geekfeminism.org/2011/12/07/leslie_harpold/ http://mightygirl.com/2006/12/15/both-sides-of-the-pillowcase-are-cool/ http://noisebetweenstations.com/personal/weblogs/?p=1987 http://web.archive.org/web/20080603234827/http://www.sixapart.com/blog/2007/04/leslie_harpold.html http://krapsnart.blogspot.com/2006/12/more-about-leslie.html http://randomruminations.net/3622/remembering-leslie-harpold (Frustratingly, this site was hacked, the owner hasn't had time to rebuild it, and this is one page missing from web.archive.org) http://boingboing.net/2006/12/12/leslie-harpold-rip.html

"After Death, Protecting Your 'Digital Afterlife'" http://www.npr.org/2011/01/10/132617124/after-death-protecting-your-digital-afterlife (Better to reference book itself)

Important mention of Leslie in a book: Your Digital Afterlife: When Facebook, Flickr and Twitter Are Your Estate ... by Evan Carroll, John Romano http://books.google.com/books?id=q8Ks6YIyhuEC&pg=PA56&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e_Z8VLuOA9axogTmvoG4DA&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=harpold&f=false In section on Brad L. Graham "Both were hyperconnected pioneer bloggers who passed away unexpectedly."

http://workbench.cadenhead.org/news/3579/why-leslie-harpolds-sites-disappeared

"Leslie was an early pioneer in the creation of autobiographical content and experimental web design. She left behind thousands of web pages, many of which are as memorable as Possible Scenarios for Heaven from 2003. Leslie's family appears to have decided to let her entire body of work disappear and be forgotten completely. The only things that are left online are articles she wrote for other sites, such as The Morning News. This raises an important question for those of us who create work on the web that we publish ourselves. When heirs decide to bury a web creator's body of work by shuttering sites and rejecting all republication requests, can anything be done to save the material?" http://workbench.cadenhead.org/news/3579/why-leslie-harpolds-sites-disappeared (Note great Zeldman comment re: incompleteness of the Wayback Machine also)

http://ask.metafilter.com/53118/Did-you-know-Leslie-Harpold-Can-you-help-me-keep-her-sites-alive

http://beatnikpad.com/retiredSite3/archives/2006/12/13/leslie-harpold

Note re: Influence section:
 * We may want to begin this section segueing out of the unintended influence of inspiring many to discuss and some to take proactive steps to protect their online presences in the event of their deaths, then move into "Before her unplanned role as a memento mori, however, Leslie was already acclaimed as an important influence on the early years of the web" or something like that. With the caveat that this is Wikipedia, we must also acknowledge that one of her major influences was in creating the tone of the early web and in her good advice. Wikipedia's rules are notoriously bad at accepting such soft skills as significant, but these come up again and again and again in the words of those who cite her as an important influence. MetaGrrrl (talk) 02:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

http://sfist.com/2006/12/13/goodbye_leslie_harpold.php Great phrase from Brad L. Graham: "[Leslie] was one of a pretty small group of people who shaped the early personal web".

http://www.43folders.com/topics/leslie-harpold

https://www.google.com/search?q=leslie+harpold&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#q=%22leslie+harpold%22&hl=en&tbo=1&prmd=imvnso&ei=tJbiTpLvBabXiAK2yKylBg&start=140&sa=N&fp=1&biw=1421&bih=771&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&cad=b http://books.google.com/books?id=1goAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA30&dq=leslie+harpold&hl=en&ei=O5PiTrD2GYiiiQKf463aBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=leslie%20harpold&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=rikEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA71&dq=leslie+harpold&hl=en&ei=O5PiTrD2GYiiiQKf463aBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=leslie%20harpold&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=q8Ks6YIyhuEC&pg=PA56&dq=%22leslie+harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dFO4T_zdFsrbiALopNSEBw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22leslie%20harpold%22&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=iQMoAQAAMAAJ&q=%22leslie+harpold%22&dq=%22leslie+harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dFO4T_zdFsrbiALopNSEBw&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBA http://books.google.com/books?id=_AMTUkxtahcC&pg=PA89&dq=%22leslie+harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dFO4T_zdFsrbiALopNSEBw&ved=0CGMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22leslie%20harpold%22&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=ObO8BSfAgLUC&pg=PA403&dq=%22leslie+harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dFO4T_zdFsrbiALopNSEBw&ved=0CGkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22leslie%20harpold%22&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=Wm48nhbLreQC&pg=PP10&dq=%22leslie+harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dFO4T_zdFsrbiALopNSEBw&ved=0CG4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=%22leslie%20harpold%22&f=false

http://www.metafilter.com/56941/Leslie-Harpold-Remembered

http://scripting.com/stories/2010/01/23/leslieHarpoldsArchive.html

http://www.intrepidmedia.com/column.asp?id=2717

http://maura.tumblr.com/post/88504534722/3-dont-write-erotica-in-fact-if-you-must-talk

http://www.feministezine.com/feminist/music/LoungeMetal.html

http://interrupt-driven.com/archives/2006/12/to_help_you_fucking_matter.html

http://varo.haub.net/2007/05/rest-in-peace.html#comments

http://www.hist.umn.edu/cwhw/SU04%20realdoll%20draft.pdf

http://hilobrow.com/2013/12/29/regression-toward-the-zine-25/

http://archive.org/stream/independentfilmv27foun/independentfilmv27foun_djvu.txt

http://www.metafilter.com/user/9212

http://www.metafilter.com/56941/Leslie-Harpold-Remembered

Notability points: Important mention in Say Everything: How Blogging Began, What It's Becoming, and Why It Matters By Scott Rosenberg http://books.google.com/books?id=_AMTUkxtahcC&pg=PA369&dq=%22Leslie+Harpold%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e_Z8VLuOA9axogTmvoG4DA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Leslie%20Harpold%22&f=false "Leslie Harpold - who, as a founder of Smug.com, represented a previous wave of personal-publishing enthusiasts"

https://www.flickr.com/groups/gne/discuss/72157594417193039/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/leslie/

http://www.oblomovka.com/wp/2006/12/12/leslie-harpold/

kms_linkedin_avatar_normal Kass Schmitt ‏@kassschmitt Mission of Burma just played Academy Fight Song in memory of much missed Leslie Harpold. •	3 Retweets •	3 Favorites •	Dore-munchausen-illustration-small_normal d1dnhhikm2n9d16jc2ku_normal 1cf6f185aaed3ed7c4d27658ffa49877_normal maritime_museum_grin_512_normal 2:43 PM - 6 Dec [20]12 from Hackney, London · https://twitter.com/kassschmitt/status/276819284540416000

http://shinyj.com/acn/about/masthead.html Leslie Harpold, Senior Design Producer (ACN), Art Director (artmuseum.net) Leslie Harpold is a designer, artist and teacher. She founded and led the design firm Fearless Media from 1996-2001, where she created interactive projects for the Museum of the Moving Image, Habitat for Humanity NYC, the American Museum of Natural History and several commercial clients. For her work with Jones Soda's she won a silver medal in identity design from Print Magazine. She lectures frequently at interactive industry conferences and seminars on the subject of design and fine art in the digital medium. She teaches in Marywood University's "Masters with the Masters" MFA program, and has taught Web design at the Fashion Institute of Technology and the School of Visual Arts. Her outside projects include a documentary on scars as autobiographical narrative, and she has written for publications including Hermenaut, the New York Press, Spin, and the Village Voice. She lives in New York.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020607191724/http://leslie.harpold.com/leslie.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20061214232939/http://www.lancearthur.com/archives/001649.html

The influence paragraph was too long. Here's how it was before pruning down to just those with Wikipedia articles. Note that I was surprised to find some of these folks did not have articles, e.g. Michael Sippey (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sippey) former VP of lots of important companies including Twitter; Paul Ford (ftrain), whose work is increasingly visible and influential; Kyle Whelliston who ran The Mid-Majority and was an ESPN columnist fired for commenting on coverage http://awfulannouncing.blogspot.com/2009/01/espn-freelancer-fired-after-questioning.html; and Chris Wetherell who is named in multiple other Wikipedia articles.MetaGrrrl (talk) 21:13, 17 December 2014 (UTC) Author and editor Choire Sicha and blogger Heather Armstrong both have cited her as an influence, as have designer Jeffrey Zeldman, writer Paul Ford, writer Josh Allen, comedy writer Todd Levin, author Maggie Mason , designer Mike Monteiro , writer and podcaster Merlin Mann, designer Lance Arthur, author Shauna Wright, systems analyst Kyle Whelliston, and engineer Chris Wetherell. Like Harpold's work, frequently the accolades of her influence bridge multiple aspects of life, such as Wetherell's statement: "Her writing beat personal ploughshares into community ploughshares that cut through my personal and professional development like a sword".

Photo
This is looking great. Suggest finding a good photo of her if possible. Who might have one? Jessamyn (talk) 18:04, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Liz Henry was going to add a great one to Wikimedia (per https://www.flickr.com/photos/lizhenry/418586186/in/photolist-unnJf-46iRFk-3recB-6Fgw6v-3re6n-2MT33-7pRhX9-dK8kkW-8ZozXf-CZn6d-uyPno-uyPnu), but I confess I do not know how to go about finding it if she did. (*blush*)MetaGrrrl (talk) 22:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Searching Wikimedia Commons, the typical place where photos are uploaded, I don't see any photos for "Leslie Harpold". People at Wikimedia Commons may be slightly concerned though that the main part of Liz's photo (Leslie's face) was probably taken by somebody else who probably hasn't released their photo under a Creative Commons license; Wikimedia Commons may consider this a "reproductive photograph"/derivative work that can't be released with a Creative Commons license. It's worth a try if this is the best available photo somebody is willing to freely license, but an ordinary photo would be better. Dreamyshade (talk) 23:16, 3 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Dreamyshade. I left Liz a note and will follow up if I don't hear back from her. Not sure whether the original photo is by her or someone else. It's a photo of Leslie that we all love and I think may have been a favorite of hers as well, so we'll track down who took it and see if we can get it. MetaGrrrl (talk) 00:54, 4 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Here you go. This is my photo of a talk where she was mentioned as an important early blogger. --Lizzard  (talk) 22:59, 10 December 2014 (UTC)




 * Ah that's great! I think the extra context about the talk makes the photo useful for itself instead of being potentially disqualified as a "reproductive photograph", thanks. :) Dreamyshade (talk) 00:04, 11 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, turns out Wikimedia Commons doesn't permit fair use images and this was deleted as derivative. Unfortunately along with any notes for the image. (Sigh.) I've been told (by an old time Wikipedia user whose legal interest is copyright issues) that fair use images, under which both Lizzard's image and possibly the original photo shown in the slideshow in her image may qualify since the subject is deceased, are permitted directly uploaded to English Wikipedia. Seems like the next step is to try once again to find out who took that picture of Leslie and then pursue some kind of acceptable use of the original. Of course the thing we all want to be able to do is just ask her. :(  MetaGrrrl (talk) 20:10, 18 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh hmm, that's frustrating that it got deleted without me noticing there was a discussion; I could have tried to make a case for it. Yeah, that guideline is at WP:NFCI - "Pictures of deceased persons, in articles about that person, provided that ever obtaining a free close substitute is not reasonably likely." I agree that this is more likely to be successful if we can document the source of that photo, or find another photo with a known source. Dreamyshade (talk) 00:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

"Did you know" nomination
I added a nomination for the Did you know system for this article - it's on the page here: Template talk:Did you know. Dreamyshade (talk) 11:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

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