Talk:Leslie speaker/Archive 1

Structure
Eek! This page could use some more structure. --Nertzy 09:43, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Copyvio?
Parts of the 22:44, 1 May 2005 151.203.39.16 large edit additions look like a copyvio to me, but I can't prove it. Wasted Time R 14:07, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Model 760
I've made a start at giving this page more structure, and added a sentence or two on the Model 760. My knowledge is limited though, so if anyone wants to improve on what I've done, I won't be offended. Just getting the ball rolling... -- Andrew Spinner

Models 147 and 122
I've added information on the Model 147 and a description of the difference between the 147 and the 122. -- Wayne Tibbit

Please make better
Terrible! Its like the people who wrote this knew something, but not what actually happened!


 * In that case, I suggest you edit it with your knowledge, instead of just asking someone else to "please make better".Andrew Spinner 12:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah and then see it 'ruthlessly edited' on some bogus ground by a self-appointed 'Wikipedian' who "just happened to stroll along". No thanx. Having said that, to make a list of musicians who don't use the Hammond-Leslie combination and not include John Lord is a bit, in his own words, 'noddy' isn't it? Lord himself is too much of a gentleman to protest, and probably too busy too, I'm not, so there. Cheers.

Different Sounds?
I should probably direct this more to the Hammond Organ atricle, but it seems i have a better chance with an answer in this disussion:

How exactly does the speaker change the sound of the Hammond? I mean, the "waves" of sound? The volume? Pitch?

JLH: I'll try to explain best I can. The typical Leslie is a two-way speaker system, and each of the two "ways" (mid-hi and low) is made highly directional through a revolving horn (up top) and diagonal baffle (down below). The horn and baffle are motor-driven and are switchable between two different speeds.

The effect of the Leslie is a combination of vibrato, tremolo, timbre modulation, intermodulation and harmonic distortion, and pitch spread, brought about as a result of the rotor/baffle motion and position, the relative location of the listener/microphone, and the environment that the Leslie and the listener/microphone are in. You can almost think of the Leslie as an acoustic lighthouse, and you hear both the Leslie directly and its sound bouncing off of the environment. Bear in mind that 3 sides of a Leslie are covered up by cabinetry with slats on the top and bottom, which makes the acoustic behavior even more complex. Leslies sound really good in large, reflective spaces.

PS: Good description of the Leslie effect JLH, but there's more. In addition there's the fact that the classic valve Leslies (122, 145, 147, etc) can be overdriven to give a warm growl to the Hammond sound. The solid-state models (760, etc) are louder and can also be overdriven, but lack the warmth of the valve models. Paul 87.114.242.7 (talk) 09:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Song examples: 100% rock!
IMO, this article should probably be edited to include examples from genres other than 60's/70's rock. Nobody can deny that the Hammond/Leslie combo was used just as prominently (if not more so) in Jazz, Blues, Soul, and of course Funk. --Mixsynth 22:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, as far as I know, the Leslie was used with the Hammond in Jazz and Funk LONG before anyone used it in rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.94.183.115 (talk) 04:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I Love this statement: "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" - Elton John ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.104.42.133 (talk) 12:07, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The magazine for professional sound mixers (Recording Engineer/Producer or RE?P) carried a feature article many years ago written by and about the organist for Steppenwolf. In the article, his modifications to the Leslie are given in great detail, complete with a list of Radio Shack items needed. The purpose of the modifications was to make the Leslie 'screaming loud' during Steppenwolf concerts. It worked. I don't remember the year, but it was probably around 1975-80. If someone can get the exact date, this would be an excellent addition to the list currently shown. I have the magazine in Nashville but I'm in Ft Lauderdale. Sorry. Bob 70.149.86.122 (talk) 03:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Well I think the Beatles again were one of the first to do this on any instrument. In one of the earliest examples of this technique, the Beatles run the Steinway through a Hammond B-3's rotating Leslie speaker, a trick they would come back to over and over again. When the intro ends, you can actually hear the Leslie being switched off!

[oldies.about.com/od/thebeatlessongs/.../youlikemetoomuch.htm] Kingcrimsonfan--Kingcrimsonfan (talk) 15:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

GX-1 Reference Deleted
JLH: I took out the reference to the use of a Leslie simulator on Emerson's Yamaha GX-1 in the ELP song "Pirates." The wavering effect that speeds up is some sort of filter cutoff modulation that I think was controlled with a footpedal underneath the GX-1 (I confess to not paying close enough attention when I saw ELPowell, which was the last time E toured with the GX-1).

HA!
I had to laugh when I read this sentence. Do you think it has enough commas in it?

"While normally used with an organ, because it is a separate unit, any musical source, such as an electric guitar, as heard in Cream's "Badge" or Pink Floyd's "Any Colour You Like", can be played back through a Leslie speaker, creating a wide range of surprising and dramatic effects. "

Leslie sound example is not the real thing
The sound example provided is not a real leslie, rather one of the many electronic emulations. It is not remotely convincing and it certainly doesn't convey the power and wonder of a hammond organ through a real leslie speaker spinning up. I'm a professional hammond performer and have been familiar with the real units for 25 years. Is it possible to replace it with the real thing? Does anyone a suitable clip handy? I'll see what I can do. 82.41.42.99 (talk) 16:55, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

IMO it is a close representation. Another can be found on the Hammond organ page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LezlieCabinetSequence.ogg That said a clip played through your computer speakers canNot reproduce the sound. This speaker cabinet throws the sound like nothing else, ya gotta be there next to it.Greg0658 (talk) 10:16, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

new songs
i think It's Only Love from their Help album should also be added, one of their first uses of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.44.229.54 (talk) 22:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Doppler vs Interference Pattern
Is the assertation that the sound is due to the Doppler effect correct? I'm no expert on these instruments, but recently modelled one. I found the main cause of stop-bands in the frequency response was due to the interference effects of the multiple coherent sources. The rotating motion changes this interference pattern from zero to around 15 stop bands twice every rotation, causing big sweeps in frequency attenuation.

In contrast the Doppler effect shifts this filter by around 100Hz every rotation.

It would seem the interference effect gives rise to the 'phaser' sound, while the Doppler effect adds some vibrato on top.

So should the first line of the article (and subsequent mentions) refer to the instrument "using interference and doppler effects?

Esuaw (talk) 23:16, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, because in the factory setup there are no multiple coherent sources -- there's only one real horn, and the treble and bass can't interfere. (Except at/near the crossover frequency of (IIRC) 800 Hz -- or maybe that's what you meant?) In any case, it's complex, and interference certainly plays some part, I just doubt it's a bigger factor than e.g. the directionality of the horn. 50.102.184.238 (talk) 10:29, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Digital Emulations sentence citation is wrong
"digital emulations of the Leslie Doppler effect have become virtually indistinguishable from the sound of a recorded Leslie speaker" cites http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/mystery/mystery.html but that page does not have any references to digital emulations, or them being virtually indistinguishable from the recorded sound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.175.143.25 (talk) 00:51, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Pre-History??
Ok, I was trying to find out about Leslie speakers, and after the intro paragraph, we go onto History

Don Leslie, at the outset, was refused hire by the Hammond Organ Company

We seem to have skipped the man inventing the speaker, and immediately we are talking about why he was refused hire, without saying what the context was. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could fill in the gap? Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.244.150 (talk) 11:10, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced model information + possible original research (snipped from article)
The 6x9-inch speaker vents to smaller louvers, cut on either side of the Leslie cabinet situated just under the top rotor louvers. But only one set of smaller louvers has any signal. The other side is blocked off with a plate and for all intents looks to be there for decoration and visual balance. No one knows for certain, why Leslie did this for the 122 RV as other models like the 222 RV had dual 6x9-inch speakers. Part of the design for the 122 RV, the 6x9-inch speaker mount location incorporates two round openings, that vent into the upper rotor cavity, through the wood shelf, just under the treble rotor.

These two holes catch the 6x9-inch speakers' reverb sound coming off the special 6x9-inch enclosure as the speaker vents to both the louvers and the round holes into the rotor cavity at the same time. Perhaps this was a time align feature to mix some of the separate reverb signal into the Doppler effect of the treble rotor's physical spin, "fanning" the reverb beam with the rotor's rotation. The reverb amount can be adjusted by a control on the reverb amp itself, or remotely from the organ by a special halfmoon switch and dedicated cable that has 3 select settings, "off/medium/on" with actual reverb amount settings preset to taste at the reverb amp in the RV with a variable potentiometer.

Model 330 was issued in 1975. The concept is the same as model 760 - a classic horn/rotor speaker in a portable tolex-covered cabinet. The cabinet size is 37 inches with casters, i.e. roughly the same size as the older model 145. Technically this speaker is slightly different than the 760. The amplifier is a single channel 60 watts with a passive cross-over like in the old tube Leslies. This makes the 330 a popular Leslie to convert to tube amplification. Another noticeable difference is, that the input socket is the modern 11pin type, making it necessary for the speaker to have a separate power cord (see below). The 11-pin socket allows modern Hammond clonewheels – such as the XB-2, XK-2 and XK-3 – to link to and operate the 330 with ease.

One of the favorite models for gigging Hammond owners, the Model 760 with 90 watts of power is still a popular choice for organs with 9-pin connectors, despite being a "solid-state" model. It has a black Tolex cabinet and is easy to carry, thanks to integrated handles. These features make it rather roadworthy. Model 770 is technically the same as 760, only with more sophisticated wooden cabinet. Model 760 was primarily used with spinet Hammonds, such as M100 or L100 -series. Leslie 760 has a rotating treble horn as well as a rotating bass drum.

Stevie Ray Vaughan used this model [16] on the song "Cold Shot" from the album Couldn't Stand the Weather. It can also be heard on Cream's "Badge" and Jimi Hendrix' "Little Wing".