Talk:Lesser of Two

Untitled
Lesser of Two was a punk/thrash/screamo band that existed for 12 years. This band was a D.I.Y. band with 3 albums and numerous singles. Lesser Of Two also toured extensively. It's members went on to form many other bands that are mentioned in other articles in Wikipedia. Lesser Of Two is notable for the number of releases produced and amount of touring done as an unsigned band during the 1990's when such accomplishments were rare.
 * Band doesn't appear to meet any of the criteria for notability of a music ensemble. That their releases are DIY is impressive but actually works against their notability. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  23:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Please consider the following sources regarding notability:

http://kzsu.stanford.edu/~hannah/l/lesseroftwo.html (this notes how rare it is for females to play extreme music)

MaximumRocknRoll issue #240/May ‘03 http://maximumrocknroll.com/back-issues/ (This article discusses how noteworthy it is that Lesser Of Two was so prolific especially considering their D.I.Y. status)

http://www.last.fm/music/Lesser+of+Two/+wiki/diff?b=4&a=3

Stating:

"Lesser of Two was a Bay Area (Oakland, CA - USA) anarcho band. Their lyrics are extremely political, and in a novel turn from most armchair revolutionaries they actually practiced what they preached. For fans of Econochrist, Christ On Parade, His Hero Is Gone, Neurosis and Damad. Partial Discography: Swing 7" (1991) Man ... Kind? 7" (1995) Transmutation 7" (2001) Transmutation CD (Discography, 2001/2) All recordings were self released by the band. Members of Lesser of Two went on to play in bands such as Ballast, Look Back and Laugh, California Love, and Embers."

Also, remember that D.I.Y. was considered a movement within the punk counter culture during the 1990's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noodlesteve (talk • contribs) 00:22, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This is strong work trying to find verifiable sources, and I seriously commend it. That said, it's still not passing guideline #1 on the Wiki guidelines for music notability. The Last.FM posting is not reliable. It's a fan-created Wiki. The MaximumRocknRoll issue is close, but doesn't satisfy the need for "multiple, non-trivial" coverage. The Stanford bit is not reliable -- it's a user page at a college. Indeed, it doesn't seem to support what you say it supports -- it's a pretty enormous list of bands including women, and we certainly can't confer notability on every band on the list, right? That's 631 bands. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  00:29, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, Lesser Of Two is noted for their anarchist political views it should be noted that Steven DeCaprio the founder of both bands was also featured in the documentary on squatting called "Shelter, a squatumentary" On this visit these websites: www.killnormal.com/shelter http://www.politicalmediareview.org/2009/05/shelter-a-squatumentary/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1488083/

Regarding this activism Steven DeCaprio was interviewed by the journalist Shane Bauer who is currently imprisoned in Iran. Regarding this visit these sites:

http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?issue_num=35&volume_num=42&issue_id=380&volume_id=317&catid=4&entry_id=6435 http://shanebauer.net/site.php/blog/comments/hellarity_burns/ http://www.shanebauer.net/ http://bayarea.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/26/the-prison-conditions-for-the-three-hikers/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noodlesteve (talk • contribs) 00:58, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Further documentation of Steven DeCaprio's activism as a squatter can be found at these sites:

http://www.sfbg.com/39/35/news_squatter.html http://www.law.com/jsp/PubArticle.jsp?id=900005452056 (DeCaprio featured on front cover of "The Recorder" newspaper) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noodlesteve (talk • contribs) 01:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

So, Embers has continued the radical left legacy of Lesser Of Two except the music has shifted from D.I.Y. anarcho-punk to D.I.Y. Red and Anarchist Black Metal. I would argue against the D.I.Y. nature of these bands being detrimental to their "notability". If that is true bands that have certain political views against the music industry would be inherently less notable. If that is so then this forum may be giving favoritism to corporate labels. It should be noted that after 11 years of recording and self-releasing their own music Lesser Of Two put in the liner notes of their final album the statement "100 DIY" on the left hand bottom corner of the last page. On the right hand bottom corner of that same page was the stamp that the product was union made from recycled material. This band was proud of their D.I.Y. status.

I would further note that since Steven DeCaprio founded both Embers and Lesser of Two and Kelly Nelson, his wife, joined Lesser of Two in 1995, was on all the albums, and went on to co-found Embers then these two bands should be viewed, at least in part, as a 15 year musical partnership constituting numerous albums, tours of both the North American and European continents, as well as a consistent theme of radical left politics.

Regarding the Decibel Magazine review. I have the latest Decibel magazine in my hands right now. It is number 065, March 2010, and it has Fear Factory on the cover. The review states:

"The Bay Area just can't stop producing good bands. Embers makes complete sense in the context of local peers like Ludicra and Saros. They've got punk, black metal, street grit and that special Bay Area brand of melancholy (via lovely viola). Bands like this you hold onto for a while."

Now since Decibel magazine is the "Rolling Stone" of extreme music and it refers to Ludicra and Saros as peers then since both of these bands are notable enough to have wikipedia entries then so should Embers as a peer and Lesser of Two as it's predecessor.

Ultimately Embers and Lesser of Two are notable for their D.I.Y. ethic, radical left politics, their nearly 20 years of recordings and tours, as well as their recognition within their music scene. All of this I believe is sufficiently supported by the above links and documentation. These assertions now have multiple, non-trivial sources.

Thank you for helping me add Lesser Of Two to wikipedia by helping guide me to the appropriate guidelines. javascript:insertTags('99.37.159.33 (talk) 06:53, 31 January 2010 (UTC)',,)

I removed the deletion tag under the suggestion of Ginsengbomb who removed this same tag from the Embers (band) page. I have done a lot of work establishing the notability of both bands including numerous sources such as Maximumrocknroll magazine, Flipside fanzine, Slug and Lettuce fanzine, HeartattaCk magazine, Pasazer. These are national and international magazines which are noteworthy for their coverage of the genre of punk.

Also, although Lesser of Two embraced a D.I.Y. ethic their first album was released on multiple labels outside the U.S.. These labels were Nikt Nic Nie Wie, Malarie, Terrorismo Sonora, Estajanovismo Records. Some if not all these labels are well established independent labels in the countries in which they are based.

I also included the list of shows to establish that Lesser Of Two were active and playing with other notable bands that have wikipedia pages throughout the 12 or so years they were active.

In summation Lesser Of Two was recognized by numerous notable publications, released on numerous notable labels, and played numerous shows with many notable bands. Their music career spanned over a decade and was prolific. Also, the collaboration of Kelly Nelson and Steven DeCaprio continues with the band Embers which has also gone on to receive positive reviews.

Also, Steven DeCaprio has gone on to become a notable squatter/activist living the values espoused in both bands. That said the resilience of this D.I.Y. band and commitment to those values is notable. These two pages should not be deleted.

They do however need to be improved since I may have made some mistakes due to sleep deprivation looking up 60 or so sources. It should be noted how difficult finding sources is since "Lesser Of Two" is a common English phrase and "Embers" is a common English word. I had to get very creative in my web searches to find all of my sources.javascript:insertTags('Noodlesteve (talk) 05:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)',,)

Looking for Hard Copies
Since the reviews I referred to in the page do not all exist online I am on a search for the hard copies of all these magazines. Also, the reviews I did find are not exhaustive of the coverage this band received in these magazines over the years. Help with this would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noodlesteve (talk • contribs) 05:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Myspace content used with permission
I received a message regarding copying and pasting the text from the Lesser Of Two myspace page. I have received permission to use that text. Before people start making accusations of plagiarism perhaps they should ask first, or perhaps send a message to the myspace cite for confirmation. Other than that minor point I appreciate everyone's input. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noodlesteve (talk • contribs) 02:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

deleted references
It seems like blogs of bands stating that they played certain shows with Lesser of Two were deleted as links. Since these are third parties who are merely stating an event occurred isn't this a sufficient reference? Also, why was the Born Against show reference left. How is this website any better of a reference?

Also what is wrong with metal-archives being used as reference to show that Rob "Trans Am" Coleman, formerly of Lesser of Two is now playing in Pleasant Valley.

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=81059

I really don't mind deleting references from Lesser of Two's own myspace and website since it is not a "third party" (although I have seen it used to varying degrees without contention elsewhere), but the aforementioned are third parties so shouldn't they be used. I understand that these are not scholarly or news sources and as such are not "reliable", but since they are only attesting to a single concert taking place or the name of a band member then I would think these are sufficient for "verifiability". I think these references fall under the exceptions within WP:SELFPUB.

I'd appreciate the opinions of others on this because I am hesitant to restore edits of more experienced wikipedians despite my concerns.javascript:insertTags('noodle 07:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)',,)

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