Talk:Letchworth

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was mouldy. Use a new move request if one is needed; this can't represent a current consensus, and the intervening period may help us gain a better perspective as to what extent the official name has become the common name. Dekimasu よ! 07:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Letchworth → Letchworth Garden City &mdash; Letchworth Garden City is the official name for the town, whilst Letchworth is an informal abbreviation. Currently the formal name links to the informal name; I'd expect the opposite. Ratarsed 13:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~


 * Support. I wouldn't suggest it otherwise... Ratarsed 14:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support, assuming "Letchworth Garden City" is the official name. See below. David Kernow 15:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC), updated 09:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support as this implies "Letchworth Garden City" is the correct name. --Pak21 15:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose, this suggested move is contrary to policy. We locate articles at the most common name (except in a few rare examples), not the "correct" name. Everyone knows it as "Letchworth", not LGC. James F. (talk) 11:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering more and more whether this policy is wise, as it can propogate or maintain inaccuracy – not a good idea, I hope all would agree, for an encyclopa/edia. Huzzah for redirects. Regards, David Kernow 12:40, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed, however, whether or not the longest-standing nomenclature policy on Wikipedia is "wise" is just somewhat beyond the competency of this discussion, and thus our decision in this case must be to follow it. James F. (talk) 14:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I know the town as Letchworth Garden City, but I do know people do abbreviate -- if you were to list towns by what "everyone konws it as", then King's Lynn would be listed as Lynn, Ipswich as Ippo, Wivenhoe as Wiv. To me, it would seem better to list by the proper name with redirects from common use names. Ratarsed 17:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You are both confusing "most common" with "slang" name (we don't locate the article on London at "The Great Stink", do we? :-)), and, as has David, above, suggest that we should conciously and explicitly ignore very basic policy in this regard. James F. (talk) 14:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * James has a point re Wikipedia favo/u/ring commonly-used names (with redirects from formally-correct names) rather than vice versa, as I recall reading this somewhere. (Thought I'd be able to locate it quickly, but must've missed it.) Hence I've withdrawn my vote. Regards, David Kernow 09:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." -- Naming conventions, "nutshell" expression. James F. (talk) 06:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a nutshell version of that nutshell version somewhere; something along the lines of "Prefer common or everyday names over official or technically correct ones, as the latter may redirect to the former." Maybe I saw it on a page other than one on policy or guidelines. Regards, David 17:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del Río de Porciúncula. Enough said. The Wednesday Island 15:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. "Letchworth" was the official name of the town until 2003 when it "officially" changed its name to "Letchworth Garden City" as part of the centenary celebrations, and following a lengthy local campaign. Considering the town's historical importance as the First Garden City its quite an important addition. Johnlbirch 21:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Support. As above, I live there and we call it that, it's important to overcome the name that people who don't live there call it. The example of Los Angeles above is different, I've never been but I doubt most poeple that live there know what the old name was. grayme

Discussion

 * Forgot to mention; the page Letchworth, does state that Letchworth Garden City is the official name...
 * Add any additional comments

===As per discussion, see Naming_conventions_%28common_names%29, indeed use the commom name, so no issue here. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 20:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the above move request closed around 1 and a half years ago so all things afterwards are now void. But then nobody has closed the discussion... Simply south (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Re. the section on local government, especially in regard to the UDC's old crest
This section of the article seems to be increasingly used as a mean of one side in this ongoing dispute to express their opinion or viewpoint. This is inappropriate in any reference source - either both sides of the argument should be refelected, or the matter should be avoided until it is resolved. Johnlbirch (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

To-Morrow
The title of the 1898 book is given on the Ebenezer Howard page as "To-Morrow: A Peaceful Path to Real Reform" Grmf 14:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you saying we should include a hyphen on this page, then? The Wednesday Island 15:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes please Grmf 15:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Twin towns
The wikipedia entry "List of twin towns in the United Kingdom" lists three Letchworth twin towns: "Chagny, France; Kristiansand, Norway; Wissen, Germany" I think they are also listed on the signs when you enter the town and there are street names like "Chagny Close" and "Kristiansand Way" in Letchworth. Please add these to the Letchworth entry.

Famous Residents
Not sure if this is the best place to do this but I'd like to query the the Famous residents list. I have read the wikipedia pages for Lenny Henry, Dawn French, and Una Stubbs but I can't see the connection. As a former resident myself (born in Hitchin, attended St Francis' College) it would be lovely to boast of these links but can they be corroborated?

On the flip side, one of St Francis' most famous "old girls" is Jennie Bond, the Royal Correspondent for the BBC. Can she be added to the list please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.247.242 (talk • contribs)


 * I believe Lenny Henry & Dawn French used to live in Paddock Close, but you're right, really these need citations -- Ratarsed 11:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Una Stubbs is definately a decendent of Ebenezer Howard - though whether she lived in the town I do not know - but it seems quite plausible. On the other hand I can find no link anywhere confirming that Henry or French have any connection with the town. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.25.106.209 (talk • contribs).

The coat of arms
I think we need to be careful about WP:NPOV in describing the current spat over the coat of arms. I have deleted some text which was verging on, but wasn't quite, POV; we should probably replace it with something a little more neutral.

Here are some news links about the matter, for people who are interested in helping improve the article:

I'd like to point out that:

1. despite what a number of people in the Comet's letters page appear to think, the question of who should have rights to the LUDC's arms is not a matter of opinion: it is a matter of heraldic law.

2. Nobody "owns" the LUDC's arms any more, because the LUDC does not exist. Some people are saying that the Corporation had rights to the LUDC arms. I find this difficult to believe, but in any case the Corporation also no longer exists. The Foundation are on record as saying that they have no right to the LUDC arms; even if the Corporation had the right to the arms, it wasn't transferred to the Foundation.

3. What none of the news coverage has mentioned, and what the previous version of this article also failed to note, is that there are two coats of arms here: the Heritage Foundation have their own coat of arms, based on the LUDC's, but not identical to it. See Stuart Kenny's quote here (although he thinks it's called a "crest"):


 * The Corporation's crest ceased to exist in 1995 when the Corporation was wound-up. It was felt, subsequently, that the Heritage Foundation should have its own crest. Not least, this was in response to Letchworthians who wanted to purchase souvenirs with a crest, from our then Letchworth Shop. We went through the appropriate channels and worked closely with the College of Arms to create a new crest, albeit based on the original one.

These are the arms which the Foundation gave the golf club permission to use, and which you can see on items for sale in the Letchworth Shop.

Here are the two coats for comparison:


 * The Foundation's arms
 * The old LUDC arms

You see that both the crest and the shield differ. The crest has a golden owl and leaves, instead of proper; the shield has cinquefoils instead of roses.

The Foundation can quite properly tell the Town Council not to use the Foundation's arms, but the LUDC arms are none of their business.

I will think about ways to work these into the article over the next few days, but if anyone wants to discuss or argue with anything I've said here, feel free, and if anyone wants to put this stuff into the article, feel free as well, of course. Marnanel 22:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Notable residents
I've referenced this section as much as I can - there are still a few names there who are likely to have lived in Letchworth but I can't find a source specific enough - if anyone could help that would be great. Names that had no verifiable indication of a link to Letchworth have been removed. Mato (talk) 18:34, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Requested move 24 July 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the city to "Letchworth Garden City" at this time, per the discussion below, and general agreement that the city is the primary topic of "Letchworth", so the disambiguation page is not moved at this time. Dekimasu よ! 21:36, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

– The name appears to be "Letchworth Garden City", even though on some levels, OS does show it as plain "Letchworth". A Google search for just "Letchworth" shows sources like the council and BBC that use the full name. The recently abolished CP was "Letchworth Garden City", but the older one was just "Letchworth", apparently this is because it was renamed in 2003.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 10:47, 24 July 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dekimasu よ! 02:32, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Letchworth → Letchworth Garden City
 * Letchworth (disambiguation) → Letchworth
 * Oppose. Both forms of the name are used, but it's the clear primary topic for Letchworth in any case. No need for a move. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:41, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Then we should just make the first move and leave "Letchworth" as a redirect to Letchworth Garden City. It looks like Letchworth Garden City is the more common name today.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 08:23, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is. I think Letchworth is more common in ordinary usage. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:47, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * What kind of ordinary usage, are you saying, how people locally refer to it? we have Appleby-in-Westmorland which is hardly ever called by the full name, though Appleby is ambiguous, Newcastle upon Tyne which is not normally called in full, though Newcastle is also ambiguous. Staines-upon-Thames is not ambiguous and was renamed in 2012 but it looks like the OS is settled on the new name.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 11:22, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Appleby-in-Westmorland is probably not the primary topic for Appleby. Newcastle upon Tyne is borderline, but has stiff competition from the Australian city. Staines should be renamed, as nobody calls it Staines-upon-Thames. The town of Letchworth, however, is the primary topic for Letchworth. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:52, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The fact people don't call it "Staines-upon-Thames" is not the most important factor, the OS and other source now call it "Staines-upon-Thames" even though they used to call it just "Staines" with Letchworth it can redirect to the modern name. WP:COMMONNAME is not necessarily local name/what people call it but what the printed name is in reliable sources.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 13:03, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I have cited two highly reliable sources below. The OS obviously uses the full name. As the national geographical data agency, using full names is its job! -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:26, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The OS uses the common name, not necessarily the official name, for example it labels Lancaster as "Lancaster" and lists "Lancaster District" as an alternative name. While "City of Lancaster" is used generally only in legislation. You can find plenty of sources that use "Letchworth Garden City" but not that use "State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations", even its website doesn't appear to. The OS is used by numerous reliable sources and what it uses is what other sources formerly use. The fact that sources locally use the short form and that news reports also do so is just for brevity, the common and proper name appears to be the full name here.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 12:56, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm puzzled as to what you think "common name" means? You seem to be discounting all sources except the OS. If the BBC isn't a reliable source for a common name then I don't know what is. Yes, it uses it for brevity. But that doesn't conflict with our common name policy. That's usually why a common name is used as opposed to a full version. If most sources use the shortened name, whether for brevity or not, then that's still the common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:33, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * As I pointed out the BBC uses the full name, while it uses "Letchworth" in news reports for brevity. Pastscape like many sources also uses the full name for the parish. BBC news reports are helpful in situations where a longer more complete name is uses like County Durham, even though the name of the county is just "Durham" as can be seen from a 2008 A-Z.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 13:42, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * So, because it uses the full name on its weather reports, this trumps the hundreds of times it uses the abbreviated name in its news reports?! Durham is not really relevant because it can refer to two different things, so context is important (if it's obvious you're referring to the county as opposed to the city, you don't need to write "County Durham"). This is not the case with Letchworth! -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:55, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * It is still a shortened name just like our article does (hence why we should use it here), it mentions its formal and shortened name. The relevant context with Durham being that it has a longer common name than the formal name. Minster-in-Thanet is another good example where a longer name is also common. This is also appears to be similar to the points at WP:CONCISE, with people, the first or last names generally aren't dropped.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 14:07, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment. Evidence of the relative prevalence of each form in reliable sources would be helpful. Dekimasu よ! 02:32, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Letchworth Garden City by OS (generally), official website and BBC
 * Letchworth Britannica.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 11:22, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The town's website may call it Letchworth Garden City in the header, but it's referred to as Letchworth many times within the body of the website. The BBC News generally refers to it as just Letchworth. The local paper calls it Letchworth. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:58, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The would you argue that Microsoft Windows should be at Windows and Adolf Hitler should be at Hitler, its common for sources to use the full name at the beginning and the less complete name throughout the rest.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 13:03, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, I would argue that Windows should be a redirect to Window! People's names are clearly a different case. Note that the BBC and local paper do not usually use the full name at all. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:24, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I would some what agree with that but I think too many readers would be looking for Microsoft. People's names were also a bad example here but still makes the point.
 * Oppose I also (regretfully) oppose on the basis there is insufficient evidence "Letchworth Garden City" is the WP:COMMONNAME. The full name Welwyn Garden City isn't comparable because it's never referred to as "Welwyn", and in any case there is another town which has just the name Welwyn. jamacfarlane (talk) 18:45, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Could there be 2 places with this name in close proximity, as both the OS  and GeoNames   have 2 entries for a settlement, although I expect its more likely duplication, it raises questions that 2 sources have 2 entries but I expect that GeoNames has used the OS.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk )  12:56, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * User:Crouch, Swale, the "Letchworth" when you zoom in on the OS map is the railway station. jamacfarlane (talk) 13:13, 3 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tidying
I have given the article a thorough tidy over the last month, trying to source what was there but unsourced, remove inaccuracies and information which I can find no reliable sources for, expanded notable topics, particularly on the town's history and governance, and added more illustrations. A couple of reservations remain - in particular the section on the town council feels too long and detailed for how relatively significant it was to the town's history overall, and does still feel a little partisan. I know this wikipedia page itself became something of an editing war at the time, which may explain why this section ended up so big. I'd like to strip it back to something more brief and neutral, but will leave that for a couple of weeks to see if anyone has any comments on here first. (It doesn't help that some of the links used as sources for this section died with the town council.) Conversely, I think there is a place for mentioning critiques of the town's impact, but at the moment all that's here is what one commentator said on BBC2 in 2007, which isn't particularly comprehensive. Stortford (talk) 08:02, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Town council section now slimmed, hopefully hitting more neutral tone. Stortford (talk) 11:42, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 6 July 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Warm Regards, ZI Jony  (Talk) 06:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Letchworth → Letchworth Garden City – is this the only UK city with its title at its short name? only others I can think of are Frankfurt am Main at Frankfurt. Clacton on Sea is titled that way with Clacton redirecting to it. But anyway, it seems as though sources do use the full name like BBC inyourarea the comet Hartfordshire Mercury. Britannica only mentiones the short name. So is it time to go to the full name? JuniperChill (talk) 16:17, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per my previous request, unlike "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" which is more a description "Garden City" is clearly part of the name as demonstrated by maps like the OS.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 16:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Just an observation, some Ordnance Survey maps just call it Letchworth, see here. Though the 50,000 maps give the full name: see here Murgatroyd49 (talk) 17:44, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject UK geography has been notified of this discussion. JuniperChill (talk) 17:11, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Conditional support if we use Letchworth for the Letchworth (disambiguation) page. Although support on the basis that |Letchworth_State_Park|Letchworth_Village|Letchworth_(disambiguation)|Letchworth_High_School,_Gainesville this article does not seem to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Letchworth, and all (including this one) have fuller names. However, neutral on using the nominator's argument concerning WP:CONCISE and WP:OTHERCONTENT, as no WP:COMMONNAME argument made.  Dank Jae  19:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * While not my intention of making Letchworth a primary redirect to Letchworth Garden City (if successful), I don't mind about the results. But anyway, I think the policy is that if sources do mention the full name, then use that (even if they use the shorter name later on). BBC does sometimes only uses the short name, although the topic name is LGC. I also think the fulltitle helps readers know its a gardencity. Google Maps does mention the full name. Plus I think it would be consistent with Welwyn Garden City and those with full names. Kingston upon Hull really should just be called Hull because the full name is uncommon (and Google Maps uses the shorter name this time) but WP:NATDAB saves the day and hull is a disambig page. Why not do a Google search of both Letchworth and Letchworth Garden City to see if sources do use the short name only. JuniperChill (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Evidence provided so far doesn't prove the proposed title is the WP:COMMONNAME. The BBC in particular seems to use the short name most of the time. Vpab15 (talk) 21:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Now we can rule that the BBC tends to only use the short name, that can be ruled out when using the full name. I just think the full name is preferred (even if sources only use it once) unless a majority of sources only use the short one. This explains why Frankfurt am Main is simply called Frankfurt. Maybe Freiburg im Breisgau should also be renamed?Its a bit hard to prove what is common name since its hard to filter (reliable) sources use LGC at least once vs only using L. Idk about the reliability of these sources My London, Express but they both use LGC at first. The Comet can be ignored as its the majority of Letchworths news results. JuniperChill (talk) 09:56, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I am afraid I didn't understand your comment. Do you agree or disagree that the BBC mostly uses the short name? Looking at the news labelled at Letchworth, it is hard to find any using the full name in the header or in the text body. Vpab15 (talk) 12:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What I'm saying (like other people have said) is that when BBC talks about the garden city, it normally only uses the short name so others can look for reliable sources (other than BBC) that uses the long name, even if its only used once. JuniperChill (talk) 16:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose: per WP:COMMONNAME -- the article is packed full of local organisations, clubs, companies, and the like that use the short form. I also haven't seen any convincing evidence that "Letchworth Garden City" even is definitively the "proper" or "official" name (something that can be quite difficult to pin down) and "Letchworth" a mere casual abbreviation. The article has a paragraph about it being the "official" name, but merely cites a campaign that got the railway station and Royal Mail post town names changed by the private operators of the rail and postal systems. When there was a Letchworth Garden City Town Council, that was probably the best argument for it being "official", but now there isn't one. Both the district and county council omit the "Garden City" from the names of the electoral wards covering the town. The Office for National Statistics omit the GC in their BUA census data. Ordnance Survey use both forms. The Letchworth Garden City Heritage Foundation Act 1995 defines LGC for the purpose of the act ("the whole of the estate and undertaking from time to time owned or managed by the Corporation or by the Heritage Foundation together with the environs thereof", which could be interpreted as being the town), but it also casually uses the short form, and "the town of Letchworth", throughout. The aforementioned reference to a name change campaign in the article text, plus one of the comments on the previous requested move discussion ("I live there and we call it that, it's important to overcome the name that people who don't live there call it") suggests an element of trying to make "Letchworth Garden City" the name of the town, rather than it indisputably being the name of the town. (I'm not at all suggesting this is a motivation behind opening this good faith RfM, only that we should be wary of any influence of campaigning on our content!). Joe D (t) 22:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Letchworth is the WP:COMMONNAME used in everyday language and by many local organisations. I would also challenge the assumption that there is such a thing as an unambiguous official name for the town. Letchworth is neither a parish nor a local government district, and so the legal provisions which allow a parish or district council to change its official name don't apply. We're therefore having to weigh up other sources as to what the best name for the article is. The Post Office uses "Letchworth Garden City" as the post town, but post towns aren't the only way of naming a place and sometimes differ from the name used by other authorities - e.g. the post town is just "Hull" not "Kingston upon Hull". The North Hertfordshire wards covering the town all just use "Letchworth" in their names rather than "Letchworth Garden City". The urban area which is the subject of the article also incorporates the old village of Letchworth, which long predates the garden city. The Office for National Statistics also just calls the built-up area "Letchworth".
 * Stortford (talk) 11:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose. Clear common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)