Talk:Leto/Archive 1

Description of Leto
The following substitution seems to reveal television-mediated familiarity with the myth at third hand: "She is described as a horrifying three headed monster who magically transforms herself into a lovely maiden so that Zeus would fall in love with her. Zeus becomes the father of her twins, Apollo and Artemis. Leto is driven off by Hera, the wife of Zeus, and in so doing is revealed to Zeus in her true form." Or is such a monstruous travesty of Leto perhaps a creation of anime? Not my area... --Wetman 21:00, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Wetman, the description of Leto you mention above is not aligned at all with Greek mythology. It seems to be a fantastical combination of Leto with her niece, Hekate. Leto is and remains a beautiful Titan in Greek myth and resides in Olympos with her children after Hera stops persecuting her. She is not monstrous in appearance in any way. Dcarver74 (talk) 12:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

It could be just me but I think this page is really poorly written and ambiguous and should be flagged for review. Many of the sentences lack verbs, and seem to be written by an ESL student.

This article is very poorly written and should be edited for content as well. In the first section, the author makes two mistakes that shows a lack of interest or research. First, the author states that Leto's "only" role in mythology revolvs around her pregnancy, by Zeus, of Artemis and Apollon and the persecution she felt at the hands of Hera. Yet, in fact, Leto had other myths. She transformed the Lycian herdsmen into frogs for not allowing her to drink from a spring nearby. She changed Leucippe into a boy so that Leucippe's father would not have her killed (he wanted a son). She reared Karneios, etc. Dcarver74 (talk) 12:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Secondly, when the author mentions her mother, Phoebe, the author makes one of the most common mistakes concerning Greek deities that I've come across. He calls Phoebe a moon goddess. This though is so common that many, if not most, dictionaries on the subject make this mistake. The name "Phoebe" was not connected to the moon until later times when Artemis had been conflated with Selene (the moon). "Phoebe" was a title of Artemis, not because Phoebe the Titanide was her grandmother, but because Phoebos Apollon was her twin brother. Apollon had been combined with Helios (the sun) and, so, it was thought that Artemis was the moon. But, again, this was a late invention. Neither of Leto's children were connected to heavenly bodies in Homeric times and this idea contradicts the myths of Helios and Selene (who are in fact, Leto's cousins). My point is simply that there is no mention or evidence that Phoebe the Titanide, Leto's mother, was conceived of as a moon goddess. This connection was never made until Artemis took upon the title "Phoebe" and became associated with the moon. Dcarver74 (talk) 12:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Another point I'd make is that Delos did not allow Leto to give birth on its shores only because it was unanchored to land, but also because Delos was Leto's sister, Asteria, transformed into an island. Zeus had originally been trying to impregnate Astera, the usual mother of Hekate, but this transformation prevented that. Then, he turned to Leto. Dcarver74 (talk) 12:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Leto and the Arabian Arab Goddess al-Latu Relation
At the time when many gods were worshipped as well as shared - in the ancient world - Leto was borrowed from Arabia where she was known as al-Latu, also called simply the Goddess and was considered one of the three daughters of (Allah) or the. There are other variations of the Goddess Leto in Rome - she was worshipped as Latona, while in Persia (likely) Allatum.

The Saffron Mother

In Hesiod's Theogony she is the "All Seeing," indicating she was once a Sun-mother like All-seeing Shapash in the lands of the Patriarchs. Because Greeks perceived the sun as a male principle only, the plethora of Sun-mothers coopted from other cultures were transformed into Dawn-goddesses or Moon-goddesses. Such names as alluded to the Sun as "Bright" or "Shining" need not be altered in order to revamp them as Moon-goddesses. For example, the Greek goddess Leto, allegedly a Moon-goddess, is actually the same as the Arabic Sun-mother Allatu, which is how it came about that even in the Greek reassessment of Leto's significance, she remained the mother of Sun (Apollo) & of Moon (Artemis). Dawn-goddesses however had features of the All Mother so deeply ingrained in them, they had to be placed at the cusp of night & morning because they once had rule over both Life & Death, Light & Dark, Wellness & Disease, & were less easily demoted to the role of Moon-goddess only. Source: Ancient Cultic Associations of Saffron Crocus

Where in the Theogony is Leto referred to as "All Seeing?" I believe this is an error. This entire quotation also relies too heavily on the later conflation of Artemis and Apollon with the moon and sun, respectively. This topic has been explained in detail by Greek scholars. Neither were conceived as heavily bodies in Homeric or Hesiodic times. This idea took place in later times (perhaps 3rd century BCE), when Apollon became conflated with Helios, but did not exist prior to this conflation. Artemis was thought of as the moon, then, simply because she was Apollon's twin. Without the twins' association with the sun and moon, the argument in the quote above is made null. Dcarver74 (talk) 12:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

More on Allat

(Al-lat) An ancient mother and fertility goddess of the pre-Islamic Arabs. Her name means "the Goddess". This mythic figure of great antiquity is one (she represented the earth and its fruits) of the trinity of desert goddesses, daughters of Allah, named in the Koran Sura 53:19-20 (the same controversial verse that the Salman Rushdie's book The Satanic Verses was based on - and was abrogated or changed/moderated from the first four early versions of the Koran - it was believed that for Muhammed to have uttered these words which were in favour of the Goddesses - [his father/family's gods] he would have been tempted by Satan - Rushdie's satirical book challenges this saying perhaps the Angel Gabriel was right the first time - hence in Muslim eyes he commits the crime of blasphemy and should be put to death - an international fatwa calling for his death still stands today.); Al-Uzza (goddess of the morning star) and Menat (goddess of fate and time) being the others. She was worshipped in the form of a block of white granite. Al-Uzza (goddess of the morning star) and Menat (goddess of fate and time) being the others.

Source: Some Arabic and Islamic Gods and Goddesses

Why Frederick Hohenstaufen?
Why the section on the birth of Frederick Hohenstaufen? This is a really unnecessary digression! (anon.)


 * To show the dynastic point of the attendants at the birth of Apollo.--Wetman 00:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC

Etymology
I commented out for now two unlikely Arabic and Greek "etymologies". Leto's early cult was in Lycia. The Lycian (not "Lydian") etymology still in the text comes from a website, however, and needs to be checked against A Dictionary of the Lycian Language by H. Craig Melchert (Beech Stave Press, Ann Arbor/New York) 2004. Has an etymology for Leto been discussed recently in print? --Wetman 13:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

It says in the text that the meaning of the name is disputed. What is the dispute about? Are there any articles/posts you could direct me to? - Kylewriter 02:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Citation about the birth
I found the exact text on this website: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Leto.html Beginning with "When Hera"

-Q

Q427skh 02:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Gabrieli's insertion
The following query has been posted at the user's talkpage Wetman (talk) 19:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC):
 * How did you come to insert the believable misinformation identifying Leto as "the Hyperborean goddess that gave birth after nine days and nine nights to the great god of the antique light" and give it a reference to Pseudo-Apollodorus 1.4.1 which made it appear credible? Please answer at Talk:Leto.Wetman (talk) 19:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Wetman, my reference was the book Prehistoric Dacia by Nicolae Densusianu, published post-mortem in 1913, you can read an English translation at pelasgians.org, see chapter V.  'The Temple of the Hyperboreans in Leuce Island (Alba)' . I used this as a source in good faith, perhaps there is a typo in the 1.4.1 book number? Gabrieli (talk) 08:44, 27 February 2009 (UTC) I'm sorry, it was Bibliotheca I. 4.1. Gabrieli (talk) 08:56, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is the text, I see where the confusion lies, due to the lack of quote marks in Prehistoric Dacia, first the lines from Sir James George Frazer's translation of Pseudo-Apollodorus: ''IV. Of the daughters of Coeus, Asteria in the likeness of a quail flung herself into the sea in order to escape the amorous advances of Zeus, and a city was formerly called after her Asteria, but afterwards it was named Delos.1 But Latona for her intrigue with Zeus was hunted by Hera over the whole earth, till she came to Delos and brought forth first Artemis, by the help of whose midwifery she afterwards gave birth to Apollo.2 [p. 27], compare with Prehistoric Dacia'': ''During Greek antiquity, the true home of the god Apollo was considered to have been in the land of the Hyperboreans. Even the inhabitants of Croton (Lower Italy), a city famous for the purity of its mores, gave Apollo, according to Aristotle, the epithet “Hyperborean” (Aelianus, V. H. II. 26; Frag. Hist. Graec. II. p.175. frag. 233 b; Cicero, De nat. Deor. III.23). Leto, on the other hand, the gentle goddess, with a sweet and kind disposition, the mother of Apollo and Artemis, was born in the Hyperborean country, according to Hecateus, as well as to other authors of the antiquity (Diodorus Siculus, II. c. 47, IV.51; Pausanisas, Descriptio Graeciae, I. 18. 5; Aristoteles, Hist. Anim. VI. 35). According to Greek legend, Leto, pregnant by Jove, was persecuted by jealous Juno, being chased everywhere on the face of the earth, so much so that no country wished to receive her in order to give birth. Rejected everywhere, Leto at last reached, after long wanderings this way and that, Delos, a small unproductive island in the Archipelagos, and the solitary rocks of this island gave her asylum. The birth pains lasted for nine days and nine nights and here, on the green grass, under a fragrant palm tree, the Hyperborean goddess (from the Lower Danube) gave birth to the great god of the antique light (Apollodorus, Bibliotheca, I. 4.1). Since that time, the island of Delos became a holy ground for the new Hyperborean god, and strong religious ties were established between the Hyperboreans and the temple of Apollo in Delos, ties which continued during the whole of Greek antiquity.''Gabrieli (talk) 09:17, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I've deleted my contribution to the article page as I now consider it superfluous. Gabrieli (talk) 09:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have inserted the actual text (in translation) of Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheke 1.4.1, for clarity. Hecateus, Diodorus Siculus, II. c. 47, IV.51; Pausanisas I. 18. 5; Aristotle, Hist. Anim. VI. 35, might all serve as supportive citations, in footnotes.--Wetman (talk) 13:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Leto - Bledo (as wolf-mother) ?
First, from the article: Antoninus Liberalis is alone in hinting that Leto came down from the land of the Hyperboreans in the guise of a she-wolf, or that she sought out the "wolf-country" of Lycia, formerly called Tremilis, which she renamed to honour wolves that had befriended her. Is it reasonable to include in the 'Origin and meaning of name' section the name, a proto-Celtic word for wolf: *bledo ? Is it reasonable to include a comparison of Leto with the existing myth of the she-wolf that suckles the other (than Apollo and Artemis) twins: Romulus and Remus ? Gabrieli (talk) 10:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC) What about Bel Dia for Lord (Lady) God ? Gabrieli (talk) 10:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC) What about Lady for Bel Dia ?Gabrieli (talk) 10:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC) What about [P]Leto of the golden spindle spinning pleats of hair? My apologies if this sounds too weird. Gabrieli (talk) 10:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Etymology of Leto
This article says: ''It is most likely to have a Lycian origin, as her earliest cult was centered there. Leto may have the same Lycian origin as "Leda", meaning "woman/wife" in the ancient Lycian language.''

I think, it is true!

Leto: <Lada-uwa (She was the mother of Artemis and Apollon) /Lada ="woman","goddess" ,uwa ="place", "temple of" (in Luwian)

Leda (mythology): <Lada ="woman" (similar name like Leto <Lada-uwa!)

more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Luwian_language#Luwian_Gods_and_Goddesses

& from Lycian language article: ''Their language, Lycian, was an Indo-European language, one in the Luwian subgroup of Anatolian languages. The Luwian subgroup comprised also cuneiform and hieroglyphic Luwian, Carian, Sidetic and Pisidic.'' Böri (talk) 12:01, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The reference for, "Possibly related to "lethe" (λήθη; oblivion) and "Lotus" (the fruit that brings oblivion to those who eat it). It would thus mean "the hidden one"." does not mention Lotus or Leto in this fashion. This is a link to the book, and there is a search option on the left. I want this to be true...can someone please provide another reference? http://books.google.com/books?id=b8gOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA376#v=snippet&q=lotus&f=false

Questions and comment
1. "Pindar consistently refers to Apollo and Artemis as twins; other sources instead give separate birthplaces for the siblings." Which other sources?

2. Latona or Letona. Two versions show up in the article. Two spellings or one?

3. The first paragraph of the "Niobe" section is in a way repeating the second and it has no source.

ICE77 (talk) 02:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

"Goddess of womanly demure" ?
Is there any historical, etymological, or mythological reason for this construct (use of an adjective in place of a noun as the preposition's object)? Peter Delmonte (talk) 17:34, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Questions and comments
1. The passage of Antoninus Liberalis breaks away from the traditional classic sources. It should be moved elsewhere or removed altogether.

Part of it says "Wolves are not easily delivered of their young". What does it mean anyway?

2. "Delos was secured with four pillars".

Can somebody explain the "four pillars"?

3. "The goddess Dione (in her name simply the "Goddess") is sometimes taken by later mythographers as a mere feminine form of Zeus (see entry Dodona): if this were so, she would not have assembled here."

Can somebody explain what "she would not have assembled here" means?

4a. The text lists Ichnaea and Themis as two separate goddesses at the birth of Apollo. The article on Ichnaea says that Ichnaea or Ichnaean are an adjective of Themis so the two goddesses seem to reduce to a single one: Themis. However, the original text (Homeric Hymn III to Delian Apollo (92-100)) lists Ichnaea and Themis separately which seems to imply two goddesses. I see a contradiction that needs an explanation.

4b. " Demeter was not present and Aphrodite was not either".

Where is that written in the original texts? I don't see a source.

5. "One was the giant Tityos, a phallic being who grew so vast that he split his mother's womb and had to be carried to term by Gaia herself."

Tityos is not really described as a giant (at least in the Giants (Greek mythology) article.

What does "carried to term" mean?

6. "He attempted to rape Leto near Delphi under the orders of Hera, but was laid low by the arrows of Apollo and/or Artemis, as Pindar recalled in a Pythian ode".

Did Pindar really write "and/or"?

Does "laid low" mean that the giant was killed? The article on Apollo says that "Zeus finally relented his aid and hurled Tityos down to Tartarus". If my understanding is correct I see a contradiction.

7. The article says "Leto was intensely worshipped in Lycia, Anatolia." Then I read "Leto's introduction into Lycia was met with resistance."

8. "Leto was also worshipped in Crete, whether one of "certain Cretan goddesses, or Greek goddesses in their Cretan form, influenced by the Minoan goddess"".

Who is the Minoan goddess?

9. I read multiple times the subsection entitled "Leto of the golden spindle" and I don't get much substance out of it.

I find this contrast interesting and worth a debate.

ICE77 (talk) 06:32, 18 February 2018 (UTC)