Talk:Li Bai/Archive 1

Spelling
I've changed all the references to "Li Po"; I'd prefer "Li Bai", but we need to be consistent. --Markalexander100 03:54, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, I prefer "Li Bo". Spencer195 08:40, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Better than Li Po. :) Markalexander100 08:51, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * The narrator of the movie at the China pavilion at Epcot seems to be saying "Li Bao." &#9829; «Charles A. L.» 19:34, May 4, 2004 (UTC)


 * You probably heard Li Bai. That's what I've always heard in Taiwan as well. --Menchi 20:10, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

i strongly propose a name change of this article to "Li Bai". Wade-Giles was previously used because the Chinese lacked a unified system of transliterate their language to English. But with the establishment of pinyin, the problem has been solved and we should stick to that. Objections anyone? --Plastictv 20:00, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

this is a no-brainer, I moved the page. LG-&#29356;&#22812;&#21449; 00:37, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you :) --Plastictv 06:02, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe that "Po" is pinyin and simply a variant pronunciation. "Pai" would be the Wade-Giles version.

I've (1) added 'Li Po' to the top as this is the name the poet is traditionally known by in English; (2) added an explanation of why Li Po is no longer used -- and this is not simply a matter of Wade Giles. If you would check a few sources, you would find that bó is a 读音 reading of 白; (3) removed the Simplified Chinese/Traditional Chinese character pairs since the two are identical here anyway. The result, I hope, is to clean up the clutter at the head of the article and to reassure people who are used to Li Po that they are not somehow politically incorrect and explain why his name has been changed.

Bathrobe 02:26, 6 May 2005 (UTC)


 * PLEAESPLEASE leave 'Li Po' in a highly visible place. I don't know any-thing about Chinese, but I know I love (the English translations of) Li Po's poetry.  I want to be able to find him without puzzling through some text.

I think it should just be Li Bai. You could mention that he's also known as li po, or li bo, but li bai is more used.- An outsider.

Li Bai is the official Chinese pinyin version--let's not change a person's official transliteration of their names just because of a popularized misspelling. I have actually not EVER heard in Mandarin his name pronounced "Li Po"; it's definitely Li Bai.


 * I believe that the reconstructed "classical" pronunciation is "Bok", hence the confusion. We should probably keep both. --Quadalpha (talk) 19:31, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Although an English speaker would probably pronounce "bok" as rhyming with "rock", and that is roughly in accord with the reconstructed pronunciation (which is usually rendered as some variation of *bak), that's not really an explanation of the so-called classical pronunciation of (pinyin) bó, which is actually IPA pɔ, I think. At any rate it is misleading to suggest that the bó reading is somehow indicative of the character's original reading.  I advocate removing that parenthetical comment from the Name Variants section. BrianTung (talk) 00:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The character 白 is generally rendered in Hanyu Pinyin as bái; however, in the case of 李白, because it is a proper noun with a traditional pronunciation, Lǐ Bó is also considered proper, and preferred by some. In fact, bó is the literary pronunciation (see Wiktionary article on character 白. Dcattell (talk) 17:34, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that one of the values of an encyclopedia, especially as a reference in regards to reading various English language material employing diverse transliterations from the Chinese is as a supplemental way to determine if the different texts refer to the same person, or, more generally, the same Chinese characters. Comprehensive reference material such as this is not necessarily all that easy to come across, and I think herein lies a key part of the value of this article. Taking note of the "Middle Chinese" section, below, I have added Stimson's reconstruction of the poet's name. I think this adds valuable historical context, especially in terms of explaining the present diversity of spellings. Also of note is that the reconstructed personal name, Bhæk, is in the level tone: this is important in regards to Classical Chinese verse both for scansion of formal tonal variations as well as in the use of tones to determine whether or not words rhyme with each other (or, more generally if words were considered as rimes in Tang times). Dcattell (talk) 17:19, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Mercury & homeland
I also toned down the mercury poisoning theory less forceful- I think it's one theory rather than generally accepted. Similarly with his birthplace- as far as I know, it's most likely that he was somewhere further west than modern Sichuan. Markalexander100 03:54, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Influence
Firstly, Avoid_weasel_terms. Saying he was influential just repeats the intro. Markalexander100 08:30, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Question: Why are the Chinese characters in bold? I haven't seen many other pages that practice this, and, frankly, it makes the characters slightly (not badly, but still) difficult to read. --Golbez 06:43, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it's difficult to read. Changed. --Menchi 06:57, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Influence section is completely Eurocentric. TheEvilPanda 14:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Wade-Giles
i'm very inclined to entirely remove the table of different versions of Li Bai's name on the right. However, i'm kept from doing so because many Western audiences are more familiar with his Wade-Giles name "Li Po" or "Li Pai" rather than his pinyin name. Suggestions anyone? --Plastictv 06:29, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I think you're going too far. Pretty much every page about a historical Chinese figure has a section called "Names" listing the many ways to transliterate the name of that person. It can't be helped. There's no real reason to remove it though, it doesn't do any harm to have all the other names listed for posterity. Wikipedia doesn't charge by the page. --Carl 03:16, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * You definitely should not remove that information. Wikipedia articles on Chinese figure provide all major transliterations of names. &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 19:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Alcoholic
A link has rfecently been added to alcoholics. Other than his alcohol-related death, is there any reason to consider Li Po an alcoholic? Kdammers 01:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * None whatsoever.  Mark1 11:31, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

There are a large number of sources which highlight his alcoholism, and that he drunk himself to death.

See: Ou Yangxiu 歐陽修(1007-1072), Song Qi宋祁 (998-1061) “Li Bai zhuan 李白傳,” Xin tang shu 新唐書, Taibei: Taiwan, Zhonghua shu ju, 1965, chapter (juan卷) 202: 5761.

Liu Xu 劉昫 (887-946). “Li Bai zhuan 李白傳.” Jiu tang shu 舊唐書. Taibei: Zhonghua shuju, 1965. chapter (juan 卷) 190:5054 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.184.76 (talk) 00:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Middle Chinese
It is my tentative suggestion that Li Bai (and all the Tang and Song Chinese figures) should also include the Middle Chinese of at least their accepted popular name. A good system to follow (if it is not plagarism) would be Hugh M. Stimson's transcriptions in his 1976 Tang Poetic Vocablary. This system renders Li Bai as Lǐ Bhæk. DMC 02:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to be accurate on those though. AQu01rius (User | Talk | Websites) 22:25, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

martial artist?
I read from somewhere that he traveled around with a sword on his hip (and that he can do a sword dancing or something) and wine on one hand. Not to mention a tv series and novel showing him like a kungfu master :\


 * Not really. He described in a poem how he was dedicated to fencing when he was 15, and killed several people. That doesn't make him a martial artist. AQu01rius (User | Talk | Websites) 22:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

etymology
the intro should only pertain to a summarization of this figure. A separate section should be added for the etymology of his name.

63.229.221.138 01:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Texts
I added some links to poems with English translation available online. I know Wikipedia isn't a link repository, but surely it's useful to be able to read a selection of his poems. Kaicarver 14:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

"Ling" Po?
Is his name ever mistranslated in the west as "Ling" Po? I just saw an old Harold Lloyd movie called The Cat's-Paw which makes frequent references to a "Ling Po" which I believe is a corruption of Li Po, but am not sure.--Silverscreen 16:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Translators?
I haven't been able to find the source of the translation in this article. Is it original work by one of the article's editors?Easchiff 06:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Alternative Translation
I've added an alternative translation of one of Li Po's poems. source: http://www.poetrystore.com/lipo.html Intranetusa 02:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a good translation. However, this translation, and also the one that was already in the article, both need references (in the main article - not the discussion page) that indicate who the translator is, where the translation was published, etc.; this is a Wikipedia policy (see WP:Citing Sources). If you can find this information (the web-reference you give doesn't have it either), please just delete the unreferenced one that's been in the article so far.Easchiff 21:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * OK; the translation you used is Arthur Waley's. I've added the reference to the article, deleted the unsourced translation, and uploaded Waley's translations for three of Li Bai's poems with the same title "Drinking Alone by Moonlight" to Wikisource.Easchiff 20:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The Epcot pavilion sentence
Can someone please fix the sentence? It can't possibly be Li Bai himself. Xiner (talk) 02:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Source Needed/ POV
"As a result, his poems flow spontaneously and effortlessly, like the river running to the ocean – it is simply unstoppable." --- this line should not exist in this article unless it is from a notable critic. I will change it for the moment being until the author has a chance to cite the source. THanks Mrathel 13:55, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, these sentences will be removed:

his poems, Li Bai tried to avoid the use of obscure words and historical references. Unlike other ancient Chinese poets such as Du Fu, Li Bai had no need to prove himself to the public; instead, he could afford to concentrate on communicating his genuine feelings to the readers. His ability to create extraordinary out of ordinary was an unusual gift among his contemporaries, and was most likely the reason why he was considered the "Poem-God

1. Why does Du Fu feel the need to prove himself to the public, and can you give evidence that shows that Li Bai had no need to do so. Maybe there is a good explanation for this, but I fail to see it, and if it exists, it needs to be referenced.

2. "communicating his genuine feelings to the readers." how can the editor know which feelings of Li Bai's were genuine and which were not.

3. "his ability to create the extraordinary out of the ordinary was an unusual gift among his contemporaries," -- Can you expand on exactly how his contemporaries lacked the gift of extraordinaryating?

-- I will give some time for a reply then I will remove the text and replace it with less POV material. Mrathel (talk) 13:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Li Bai, or Bai Li?
Chinese names are written family name first, then given name; in the west these are usually inverted to the conventional order given name, then family name. From this article, it is impossible to tell which name is his family name, or whether the western version of his name is inverted or not. Geoffrey.landis (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Please study some Chinese--if you don't know that this is one of the most famous poets in Chinese history, then you wouldn't need to ask what his last name is. It's obvious. LI is his surname. Thank you for bringing up a non-issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.55.147.108 (talk) 03:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Tai Bo
Tai Bo should redirect to Tae Bo not here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.24.69 (talk) 21:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Most well-known poems
It is certainly NOT Drinking Alone by Moonlight (月下獨酌). From my personal education experience, I had never came across this piece of work. The most famous poem is most definitely 靜夜思 (uncertain of the correctness on the last character). I have no English translation of the poem title, but it would be much appreciated if someone could provide an official English transliteration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.64.205 (talk) 08:45, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

靜夜思 Reflections on a Quiet Night. BOTH are among his most famous works, as are many of those included in the Collection of Three Hundred Tang Poems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.184.76 (talk) 00:31, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Height?
My world literature textbook says that he was "over eight feet tall." I don't know if this is true, so please remove it from the article if it is not. --Cerebellum (talk) 00:40, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That's the first I've ever heard of this, and I've been reading a lot about Tang poets lately. It's certainly not mentioned by any of the translators of his works. I'm dubious, to be frank. —Quasirandom (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I haven't found mention of this anywhere else on the Internet, and I assume that a fact like that would be pretty common knowledge. Plus, our own List of tallest people has only 7 individuals ever who were over 8 feet tall, and you haven't heard anything about it, so I'm definitely calling shenanigans on this.  I've reverted.  --Cerebellum (talk) 15:53, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The Chinese measurement "chi" (sorry don't have Chinese input on this computer) is not the same as the measurement of 1 feet. In Romance of Three Kingdom the GuanYu is described as nine chi (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu) and he's not unusually tall. In this case the source probably meant 8 chi, not 8 feet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.69.70 (talk) 02:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeo Ok
I have just started a little entry on Yeo Ok (麗玉)(여옥). We don't have much information on her but there is a mention of Li Po using her story: Gonghuin (箜篌引). Does anyone know about this and have more information in general? Best wishes (Msrasnw (talk) 09:55, 28 February 2009 (UTC))
 * More likely Li He (aka Li Ho) than Li Bo (aka Li Po). Dcattell (talk) 10:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Chinese media fabrication
Huanqiu Sibuo printed article with a fake Seoul University Professor from a history department who is making claims that a Chinese historical figure/poet, was actually a Korean. First of all, there's no professor named Kim Byung Duk at SNU, and second of all, there is no history department at Seoul University. Article from: http://world.huanqiu.com/roll/2010-05/815820.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs) 16:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

How to incorporate this? use of personae in poems
I think this is important to incorporate about the Chinese poetry tradition of sponteniously creating poems about NOW and the conflation of the narrator of the poem with the poet and Li Bai's more frequent use than some of his contemporaries of using a personea "I" within his poems; but I am at a loss as to how to get all of that in this article. Help? Source at googlebooks. Active Banana (talk) 20:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

A better older version somewhere?
Once upon a time, someone ranked this article as B-class. Considering where it started today, and adding the references that I have so far, I would only give this a Start rating. Was there some actual B class version that existed before or was this miserably misrated? Active Banana (talk) 21:21, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

biography
I have divided his biography into sections, which I think will be helpful, although the content needs plenty of help. Dcattell (talk) 17:34, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Li Bai vs Li Bo
If you guys insist to add Li Bo in pinyin, please note that Bo is not modern standard Mandarin Chinese pronunciation, it IS Obsolete. One can still hear this in nowadays Beijing opera.--刻意(Kèyì) 00:32, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Good point. "Bo" for "白" is dialectic/historical. Certainly, this is an important fact, one which should not be ignored, and indeed should be mentioned. How to make more clear in this article? And, in this regard, information on Beijing opera would be helpful, especially with citations.... Dcattell (talk) 05:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)