Talk:Liberal arts education

Requested move 7 February 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. RM is not the best place for discussions about rescoping, as it's an either/or thing. That said, the rescoping discussion has merit and I don't want this closure to prematurely end it. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 20:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Liberal arts education → Liberal arts – Shorter and more consistent title; see WP:AT and WP:COMMONNAME. Mast303 (talk) 00:37, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose not the same thing. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:49, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment – Is it your intention to change the article's scope? Graham (talk) 05:51, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. We should have an article on liberal arts in general. Mast303 (talk) 01:17, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That seems like a rather different rationale from your initial proposal. Graham (talk) 02:52, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, if you want to do that, changing the scope of this article, you should get consensus for that first. I think you would find it a rather more slippery concept than you imagine. Johnbod (talk) 05:24, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose not the same thing. Johnbod (talk) 05:53, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support - By judging the article's current content, clearly "education" is an extraneous appendage to the article's topic and title. "Liberal arts" is a shorter Boolean search term, and the succinctness of the title would offer a better grasp of the topic more broadly, with a subsection to address the topic pedagogically.  I fully support the change. Sapienna (talk) 02:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * But literally the whole article is about education! Johnbod (talk) 22:33, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Johnbod, @In ictu occuli: We should not only move, but also make the article about liberal arts in general. Then, we should devote a section to Liberal arts education. I might also consider splitting off this article into Liberal arts. Mast303 (talk) 22:35, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What does "splitting off this article into Liberal arts" mean? Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 22:40, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I propose having an article on liberal arts (in general) and another article specific to liberal arts education. Or we could have a section on liberal arts education. Mast303 (talk) 22:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I would support a new article on the liberal arts in general. That doesn't require doing anything to this one. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 22:46, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That's a moving target! We already have Trivium and Quadrivium, between them covering the 7 arts in the classical and medieval idea of the term, plus articles on all the much longer list of subjects that might be covered by the modern idea of the term (see the article). I'm not sure anything else is needed. Anyway, as you say, only a link or two would be needed here. On the other hand, the lead could do with an expansion clarifying the difference between the older 7 and the much wider modern range. That's all in the article now, but somewhat buried in the dense 2nd section. The very last thing we need imo is a listy series of short paras explaining everything given in the article for modern areas: "The modern use of the term liberal arts consists of four areas: the natural sciences, social sciences, arts, and humanities. Academic areas that are associated with the term liberal arts include: Life sciences (biology, ecology, neuroscience)Physical science (physics, astronomy, chemistry, physical geography)Logic, mathematics, statistics, computer sciencePhilosophyHistorySocial science (anthropology, economics, human geography, linguistics, political science, jurisprudence, psychology, and sociology)Creative arts (fine arts, music, performing arts, literature)</ul>" Johnbod (talk) 23:21, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * I've added a para to the lead as I suggested above. Johnbod (talk) 05:03, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

“Mathematics, Geometry”
I might be wrong here, but isn’t the term “Arithmetic” better suited? 141.179.80.215 (talk) 12:06, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Formal Sciences and Natural Sciences are taught within a Liberal Arts Education Framework; Liberal Arts is not synonymous with Humanities and/or Social Sciences
According to the sources cited, the "formal sciences" which includes "logic, mathematics, statistics, computer science" among others is taught as part of a liberal arts education framework in all universities, at least in North America were all accredited universities follow a liberal arts education framework and where most liberal arts-style education is most taught in the world.

If you have problems with the scholarly consensus definition of liberal arts education (which is also known as the " arts and sciences" at most universities) which includes the natural sciences and formal sciences along side the humanities, social sciences, and creative arts, go to the talk page to air out your objections to scholarly consensus. And stop deleting sourced material.

Here is the breakdown of all the sub-categories of Liberal arts education (if you want sources go to the article) --

The modern use of the term liberal arts consists of four areas: the natural sciences, social sciences formal sciences, and humanities. Academic areas that are associated with the term liberal arts include:
 * Natural science
 * Life sciences (biology, ecology, neuroscience, etc.)
 * Physical science (physics, astronomy, chemistry, geology, physical geography, etc.)
 * Formal science (Logic, mathematics, statistics, computer science, etc.)
 * Social science (anthropology, economics, human geography, linguistics, political science, jurisprudence, psychology, sociology, etc.)
 * Humanities
 * Investigative and systematized humanities (philosophy, history, etc.)
 * Language arts (literature, language education, writing, oratory, rhetoric, poetry, etc.)
 * Creative arts and fine arts
 * Performing arts (theater, music, dance, etc.)
 * Visual arts (painting, sculpture, photography, filmmaking, etc.)

See revision of https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liberal_arts_education&oldid=1166135278 because someone keeps deleting not only the information stated there but also the sources that backs up the text.

66.44.114.72 (talk) 15:16, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Your edits are not supported by sourcing - you cannot simply change the article to your personal beliefs about the subject. Substituting 'formal science' for the 'arts' as one of the main areas of a liberal arts education is simply disconnected from reality. - MrOllie (talk) 15:30, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Look, I'm not substituting the term "arts" for "formal sciences," the term "arts" identified in this context with the terms "creative arts" or "fine arts" is redundant because the "creative arts" are a tertiary sub-category of humanities the same exact way "life sciences" and "physical science" are tertiary sub-categories of natural sciences. If for example, if the text instead of saying "liberal arts consists of ... the natural sciences, social sciences, arts, and humanities" it says 'liberal arts consists of ... the natural sciences, life sciences, physical science, social sciences, arts, logic, mathematics, statistics, computer science, language arts, filming, and humanities" I would follow the same logic as before, remove the redundancies and concisely write 'liberal arts consists of four areas: the natural sciences, social sciences formal sciences, and humanities' where the term "humanities" is already inclusive of the "arts" which is a factual statement in line with the sources already cited in the text and scholarly consensus. 66.44.114.72 (talk) 15:39, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This is all WP:NOR. Removing 'arts' because you personally think it is redundant is the problem, as is adding 'formal science' because of the way you personally categorize things. MrOllie (talk) 15:45, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Speaking of redundancy, though, please stop bloating the article lead with unnecessary trivia. It is supposed to be short and simple, we don't need to list every variant of post-secondary educational institution. MrOllie (talk) 15:52, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Here is a quote from a sources if you can't find this out yourself (https://www.topuniversities.com/blog/what-liberal-arts-education):
 * What is Liberal Arts Education? -- By Hasna Haidar


 * "What is liberal arts education today?
 * So, in a modern context, what is a liberal arts education? There are now many subjects that fall within the broad scope of the category; a typical liberal arts degree program is interdisciplinary, covering topics within the humanities, as well as social, natural and formal sciences. There are differences in the particular subjects included in liberal arts degree programs at different institutions. However, the liberal arts spectrum is generally accepted as covering the following fields:


 * * Humanities – includes art, literature, linguistics, philosophy, religion, ethics, modern foreign languages, music, theater, speech, classical languages (Latin/Greek) etc.
 * * Social sciences – includes history, psychology, law, sociology, politics, gender studies, anthropology, economics, geography, business informatics, etc.
 * * Natural sciences – includes astronomy, biology, chemistry, physics, botany, archaeology, zoology, geology, Earth sciences, etc.
 * * Formal sciences – includes mathematics, logic, statistics, etc."

66.44.114.72 (talk) 15:54, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * You should have a read of WP:RS. A blog on 'topuniversities.com' is not going to help you here. MrOllie (talk) 15:55, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * "Today liberal arts include humanities, social sciences, natural sciences and formal sciences. When its historical roots are traced, it is found that the liberal arts were the oldest higher" -


 * This is From "Liberal Arts Education: Imparting Intellectual Vision" by Samhita K of Jain University-Bangalore in the International Journal of Scientific Research Engineering & Technology (IJSRET), ISSN 2278 – 0882 (Volume 7, Issue 9, September 2018) - Link: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Samhita-Krishnaswamy/publication/328381909_Liberal_Arts_Education_Imparting_Intellectual_Vision/links/5bc99081a6fdcc03c793afa8/Liberal-Arts-Education-Imparting-Intellectual-Vision.pdf.


 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.44.114.72 (talk) 16:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Nor is a well-known predatory journal. MrOllie (talk) 16:04, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

More sources incoming:


 * Appalachian State University (26 June 2017). "What is Arts and Sciences?". What is Arts and Sciences?. https://cas.appstate.edu/about/what-arts-and-sciences
 * "About the College of Arts & Sciences". American University. https://www.american.edu/cas/about/
 * Cornell University - "Home | The College of Arts & Sciences". https://as.cornell.edu/
 * What Does Liberal Arts Mean? - Princeton University. https://admission.princeton.edu/academics/what-does-liberal-arts-mean
 * Quote: "The typical liberal arts subjects are on the broad scope of the category including the humanities, as well as social, natural, and formal sciences." - Journal of Literature and Art Studies [Volume 9, Number 8, August 2019 (Serial Number 93)] - Link: https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/61351717/Journal_of_Literature_and_Art_Studies_Vol.9_Issue_8_August_201920191127-94353-skwckh-libre.pdf?1574845191=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DJournal_of_Literature_and_Art_Studies_Vo.pdf&Expires=1689786676&Signature=GEV9HFgHg4SxzF1ySj0gYmX6o~tOhnFSB3BB9DgIBY7DW76EaHYDg5jZZSZmIJfV7jRoLlzLZtAAuBQRS77WmZOnlrwsox4nLULMlPE2C-nzhl2RrTdWQYeflyjvkOZ4~E2QoskolLptv13H-v3G1yYbRZMGEYDsKbUorT4qiMWrPE4M04T6i-5jbytESRQWs6wUInwp9~vQH4ixsjpqpbTpMteHX0vBtgjdtOeLw0nFCyHXMgxYatAahS80wa6YkRwhh-edk4AxfPjEh5d0bB2JsIovNt43waZX~2W46d4Q2Xa8tOjx6~znJjyNPV~bRM8nXgV8wyMk6i16ccQpPA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA#page=116

66.44.114.72 (talk) 16:17, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

The spitefulness I just faced is just petty, are they really just going to revert the term "legal case" to "or a specific/a specific group of lawsuit(s)/court case(s)" evidenced by them in the strategic communication article saying "Dept of redundancy dep" just as a jab at me because I made sourced edits on a completely different article that didn't fit their personal beliefs. The term "legal case" is a lot better and concise relative to the phrase "or a specific/a specific group of lawsuit(s)/court case(s)". That's just unfair. [Just to be on the safe side and to give the benefit of the doubt to other, if that wasn't meant to be a spiteful jab at me over something petty and was a good faith edit, I will recant this and continue as if it never happened]. 66.44.114.72 (talk) 16:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * When someone is making the encyclopedia worse on one article, it is pretty standard to look at their contributions to see if they are also making it worse elsewhere. In this case I found some more stuff that needed fixing. MrOllie (talk) 17:02, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I get that most academics count the liberal arts as encompassing the sciences as well but would it be possible to just include a side note in brackets about the fact that quite a lot of people don't consider mathematics or the sciences as liberal arts? I mean in the context of university degrees the liberal arts only seem to encompass history, literature, writing, philosophy, sociology, psychology and maybe a few more. If the goal is to be as impartial as possible then i think this should be taken note of.