Talk:Liberation of France/Archive 1

Sourcing copied lead content
Just a note about ensuring Verifiability of copied content, especially when that content happens to come from the lead of another article. This article fits the description of a parent article, as defined at WP:Summary style. The organizational structure of this article should thoroughly cover the scope of the topic, but the content of each section will be fairly brief, and consist of a summary of the more detailed content at the child article. In some cases, content from the lead of the child article may be able to be copied here for use as the summary; in that case, appropriate references from the body of the source article may need to be copied as well to support the copied lead content, since an article lead does not require references, but when the content is copied here, then it does require them. Care should be taken to make sure all copied content is appropriately sourced.

And of course, every edit containing content copied from another article, must have an accompanying edit summary that meets Wikipedia's licensing requirements, as described at WP:CWW. For convenience, a copy-paste model summary is listed right at the top of the Draft. A nice-to-have, is a copied template here on the talk page as well; but the edit summary attribution is a requirement. Mathglot (talk) 01:17, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Organizational structure feedback
I've created this draft as a skeleton structure of section and subsection titles, top and bottom matter, and images; but no body content (other than Lorem ipsum filler, so the images sit properly). Any feedback on this structure would be appreciated. The easiest way to see the overall structure, is just by looking at the Table of Contents. Mathglot (talk) 01:24, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Question about copying infoboxes
I've started looking at some of the "Main" and "Further information" articles you'd linked to, just trying to get a sense of the work involved and whether there's a particular section that I might have more background knowledge about or that interests me more than others to work on, and I just have a quick question for right now: what do you envision for the info box on the Liberation of France page, and do you think it makes sense / is it feasible in terms of WP markup to copy the infoboxes from the child Main and Further pages for a section into that section? For ex., I'm thinking that I may start with the section on Resistance, and both the Free France and French Resistance pages have details in their infoboxes and graphics, and I'm wondering about bringing a significant chunk of that info (map, etc.) over. But I don't know (a) whether it's possible to have section infoboxes along with a main infobox (as a technical matter), and if so, where to look for directions about this, and (b) whether that will take up more space in the sections than you're envisioning for each section. Thanks. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 13:36, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Part of this is easy: "no", for section-based Infoboxes. That said, you sometimes see campaignboxes at the section level, and technically, I think they are Infoboxes, so maybe it's a partial "yes". You could post at WT:WPINFOBOX and get a better answer than I can give you. (Please notify me there if you do, so I can follow along.) Mathglot (talk) 04:05, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You might also check WP:Manual of Style/Military history, for those sections of the article that fit, basically section 2. I'm not too familiar with MOS:MIL, so not sure whether there's anything relevant to your question there or not. And of course, MOS:INFOBOX. Mathglot (talk) 05:17, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You can also check the Infobox in the French article (or any of the foreign articles on the topic). The French interwiki link is in the left sidebar, under "Français". Mathglot (talk) 06:34, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The article on the liberation of Corsica has a "campaignbox" in a section.  See Italian occupation of Corsica. But that's nothing like a complete Infobox.  Mathglot (talk) 07:09, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Ended up adding multiple Infoboxes to Draft:Government of Vichy France after all. More follow-up here. Mathglot (talk)

Question about change in the Table of Contents / structure
I noticed that the article structure had changed, and although I can see that it happened in between the last two edits, I don't see the deletions, and my sense is that something odd (and perhaps unintended) occurred, so I want to check. If you compare and, you'll see that the Contents changes from:

1 Background
 * 1.1 Western Front
 * 1.2 Fall of France and rise of Vichy
 * 1.3 Resistance
 * 1.4 Operation Sledgehammer

2 Military campaigns
 * 2.1 Algeria – November 1942
 * 2.2 Corsica – 1943
 * 2.3 Battle of Normandy – June 1944
 * 2.4 Paris – August 1944
 * 2.5 Southern France – August 1944
 * 2.6 Pockets of German resistance – to May 1945

to:

1 Background
 * 1.1 Western Front
 * 1.2 Fall of France and rise of Vichy
 * 1.3 Corsica – 1943
 * 1.4 Battle of Normandy – June 1944
 * 1.5 Paris – August 1944
 * 1.6 Southern France – August 1944
 * 1.7 Pockets of German resistance – to May 1945

Did you intend to combine those two sections and eliminate 3 sub-sections? (I know that you'd had a question about deleting the Operation Sledgehammer sub-section, but I don't recall there being a question about that for the Resistance and Algeria subsections.) -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 03:05, 16 July 2020 (UTC)


 * thanks for the heads-up, and no, I didn't intend that. Let me have a look, might have been an error on my part. Mathglot (talk) 03:33, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's very strange, because "Military campaigns" has dropped out of the ToC in the second (current) version, but if you edit the source, it is still there. That is to say, if you look at the rendered page (as a reader would see it) of revision 967895894 (the current version, at this time) there is no section "Military campaigns" nor does that string appear anywhere on the page. However if you click the "Edit" button to look at the wikicode, the expression is still there.  This must have to do with unbalanced expressions: either an unterminated comment string, missing end-brackets, or something like that.  I'll see if I can find it, but if not, I'll back out that version, to the last good revision, which was revision 967894033 of 23:44, July 15, 2020 by User:Elinruby. One way or another, we'll figure this out. Mathglot (talk) 03:44, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I wish I knew enough to help. If you have time, I'm still wondering about my earlier question re: copying infoboxes, and as I noted on your Talk page, I think it would be helpful to have a Table of Contents at the top of this Talk page, but I'm not sure how to create that. Thanks. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 03:52, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * A few ways; either or use of the toc or toc limit templates. I'll get back to you on Infoboxes. Ping me in a day or two, if I don't. Mathglot (talk) 04:00, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I added a sentence to say this operation never took place. I am inclined to err on the side of more info until we are more ready. Will re-examine my own edits shortly in case Elinruby (talk) 03:50, 16 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Found it. This edit turned an html end tag (' --> ') into this: (' —> ') which wiped out everything up until the next html end tag. That's something that a "smart editor" (including some mobile coding apps) might do, because back in the days of typewriters, which just had one symbol for minus, hyphen, and dash (let alone two dashes, en and em), people would type two hyphens in a sentence--like this--to indicate to their publishers that that's where a dash should go. This was universal practice at the time.  Anyway, now that we have computers with tons of dash-like characters, but many keyboards still don't have an easy way to generate a dash (my laptop keyboard doesn't), lots of folks still just type two hyphens. Enter the "smart apps" on mobile devices or iOS devices, which *do* have a way to type en and em dashes, so they've decided to just convert the double-hypens into em dash. This is usually fine in the middle of a sentence, but wreaks havoc with html and other coding systems. My guess is, that's what happened here.  Anyway, it's fixed. Elinruby, if you're using a "smart editor" please configure it to "code" mode while editing wikicode, so it doesn't inadvertently change html hidden text delimiters in the background, without telling you. Mathglot (talk) 03:56, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Collapsed the before/after images above to save vertical space; technical WP:TPO, feel free to revert. Mathglot (talk) 04:10, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh it’s this stupid iPhone, my apologies. it has done that elsewhere Elinruby (talk) 05:18, 16 July 2020 (UTC)


 * No wories, . You can turn off smart punctuation on iOS. Check out this article. There are also dedicated coding apps, which is nice, because editing in the code window in Safari on an iPhone is a pain, plus if it crashes, or you kill the open window with your text in it by mistake, you're not guaranteed to get it back. Plus searching, and cut/pasting in that window, is really a pain. I like the Kodex app for iPhone; it's free, really nice, saves stuff if you crash, and even allows regex search and replace, which is what did it for me. But even if you don't use regexes, it's really nice.  There are plenty of competitors out there, but check it out. Mathglot (talk) 05:35, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Going to add in military detail first
Basicslly, since this is a somewhat different different point of view of events I was already telling at the Government of Vichy regime draft, will attribute anything specific taken from another page. But since there is already a resistance page and a couple difference Vichy pages, plus the different administrations, this article is specifically about the way the Nazis were defeated, right? Elinruby (talk) 05:44, 16 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Basically, yes. Although we should let the sources guide us on what the scope of the article is, too. Vichy regime is more about what they did.  This article is more about how the Allies kicked the Nazis out, and Vichy went scurrying off to Sigmaringen, or they would have been captured, either by Americans, or maybe even slaughtered by the Resistance. Whatever the scope of the article, I always like to start off with a Background section to set the stage&mdash;I think you do that, too&mdash;especially for folks landing here who really don't know what the Liberation of France was, or what war, or what century. I always imagine in my mind's eye, high school or even middle school kids reading it, and I ask myself how do we tell the story so the article makes sense to them, and stands on its own? At the tail end of the article, I like to have an "Impact" or "Legacy" or "Aftermath" section, to kind of provide a segue, and to put it in context for later events.
 * Also, I recently created the Liberation of France Nav template, starting as a translation of the French one, Modèle:Palette Libération de la France and branching out from there. There should be a rough kind of overlap between the article, and the Nav template, but only a very rough one. Nevertheless, there may be some links in the Nav that might point to areas where there are gaps in the article. It's the first one, at the bottom of the article. Mathglot (talk) 06:23, 16 July 2020 (UTC)


 * , great. Just making sure this one is a military history and the discussion of the Resistance for example focuses on its military aspects as opposed to oh popular culture or literature or cinema. I see the government of Vichy regime as more of a procedural about who was in charge of the jolly youth camps at a given moment and how a republic voted itself out of existence   Elinruby (talk) 06:37, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I would say mostly military, and I agree that such things as touch on the Resistance would be mostly military as well. If there was something non-military that really contributed in a big way to liberating the country, maybe some genius French cryptanalyst equivalent to Alan Turing breaking the Enigma code, or kidnapping Goering on a visit and shipping him to the Gulag, then that would belong as well. Whatever you think "liberated" the country; in this case, mostly military efforts. I would say the Resistance efforts in hiding Allied pilots, or spiriting them back to England might be something worth mentioning, but it depends a bit on how large the article gets, whether that would be WP:DUE or not here. I trust your judgment. Clearly, the article on the Resistance itself, would be able to host a lot more detail than we can here; after all, since this is a "parent article" in Summary style, the section on the Resistance here will probably only be a few paragraphs, and point to the main article with a Main link at the top of the section.  But yeah, to your original point: I think the majority of this article will focus on military operations. Mathglot (talk) 06:59, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

thoughts in passing. Somewhere there should be mention of Casablanca the movie and some of JP Sartre's plays with Resistance protagonists, and the adoption of "Maquis" by the Star Trek franchise, but not what I am doing atm, just writing it down before I forget. Elinruby (talk) 15:46, 16 July 2020 (UTC)


 * the latter two should prob be @ French Resistance. Note to self, Casablanca strategic port Elinruby (talk) 15:52, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Castle to Castle should link to Sigmaren enclave, poss in Vichy régime Elinruby (talk) 21:02, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Please use "In use" template to avoid edit conflicts
It looks like we might all be editing this at the same time&mdash;which is great!&mdash;but in order to reduce the risk of edit conflicts, to "claim" a section of the article, please add the section template at the top of the section, and hit Save right away. This should put a big box there, saying you're editing it. Try and remember to remove it after a few hours or a day.

If you have set your sights on a section that you'd like to edit, but not just now, just leave a comment right in the section right out in the open; this is only a Draft, so it's fine. You can use notice if you want: or something. Ha! So ironic, that I just got an edit conflict, when placing this! Too funny. Mathglot (talk) 06:52, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Possible in-links
Here are some possible in-links, after release to mainspace:


 * ✔️ 1944 in France
 * ✔️ 1944 in Germany
 * ✔️ 1st Armored Division (France)
 * ✔️ 1st Army (France)
 * ✔️ 1st Army Corps (France)
 * ✔️ 1st Free French Division
 * ✔️ 112 Gripes About the French
 * ✔️ 2nd Armored Division (France)
 * ✔️ 3rd Algerian Infantry Division
 * ✔️ 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French)
 * ✔️ Abbeville
 * ✔️ Allied advance from Paris to the Rhine
 * ✔️ Allied Military Government for Occupied Territories
 * ✔️ Allied siege of La Rochelle
 * ✔️ Allies of World War II
 * ✔️ Anti-French sentiment in the United States
 * ✔️ Appeal of 18 June
 * ✔️ Armée secrète
 * ✔️ Armistice Army
 * ✔️ Army of Africa (France)
 * ✔️ Atlantic pockets
 * ✔️ August 1944
 * ✔️ Bastille Day military parade
 * ✔️ Battle of Alsace
 * ✔️ Battle for Brest
 * ✔️ Battle of the Bulge
 * ✔️ Battle for Caen
 * ✔️ Battle of Carentan
 * ✔️ Battle of Cherbourg
 * ✔️ Battle of France
 * ✔️ Battle of Gabon
 * ✔️ Battle of La Ciotat
 * ✔️ Battle of Marseille
 * ✔️ Battle of Nancy (1944)
 * ✔️ Battle of Normandy
 * ✔️ Battle of Réunion
 * ✔️ Battle of Saint-Lô
 * ✔️ Battle of Toulon (1944)
 * ✔️ Battle of Vercors
 * ✔️ Bayeux
 * ✔️ The Bayeux speeches
 * ✔️ Bayeux war cemetery
 * ✔️ Bombing of France during World War II
 * ✔️ Brazzaville Conference
 * ✔️ Bruyères
 * ✔️ Breton nationalism and World War II
 * ✔️ Café Gondrée
 * ✔️ Canada in World War II
 * ✔️ Ceux de la Libération
 * ✔️ Charles de Gaulle
 * ✔️ Clandestine press of the French Resistance
 * ✔️ Clearing the Channel Coast
 * ✔️ Colmar Pocket
 * ✔️ Comet Line
 * ✔️ Comité de libération du cinéma français
 * ✔️ Cross of Lorraine
 * ✔️ Dégradation nationale
 * ✔️ Drancy internment camp
 * ✔️ Dunkirk
 * ✔️ Écouché in the Second World War
 * ✔️ Edgard de Larminat
 * ✔️ Empire Defense Council
 * ✔️ End of World War II in Europe
 * ✔️ Épuration légale
 * ✔️ European theatre of World War II
 * ✔️ Falaise Pocket
 * ✔️ First Indochina War
 * ✔️ France during World War II
 * ✔️ Free France
 * ✔️ Free France
 * ✔️ Free French Africa
 * ✔️ Free French Air Forces
 * ✔️ Free French Naval Forces
 * ✔️ French colonial empire
 * ✔️ French Committee of National Liberation
 * ✔️ French Expeditionary Corps (1943–44)
 * ✔️ French Far East Expeditionary Corps
 * ✔️ French Forces of the Interior
 * ✔️ French Fourth Republic
 * ✔️ French Indochina
 * ✔️ French Indochina in World War II
 * ✔️ French Liberation Army
 * ✔️ French National Committee
 * ✔️ French prisoners of war in World War II
 * ✔️ French Resistance
 * ✔️ French West Africa in World War II
 * ✔️ German military administration in occupied France during World War II
 * ✔️ Gurs internment camp
 * ✔️ Government of Vichy France
 * ✔️ Harold Macmillan
 * ✔️ Henri Giraud
 * ✔️ History of France (1900 to present)
 * ✔️ Horizontal collaboration
 * ✔️ Indignité nationale
 * ✔️ Internment camps in France
 * ✔️ Jean Moulin
 * ✔️ June 1946 French legislative election
 * ✔️ La Nueve
 * ✔️ Legion of French Volunteers Against Bolshevism
 * ✔️ Liberation – disambig page
 * ✔️ Libération (disambiguation)
 * ✔️ Liberation of Paris
 * ✔️ Liberation of Strasbourg
 * ✔️ Liberation Route Europe
 * ✔️ Liberty Road (France)
 * ✔️ Lille during World War II
 * ✔️ List of networks and movements of the French Resistance
 * ✔️ List of people involved with the French Resistance
 * ✔️ Maquis des Glières
 * ✔️ Maquis du Limousin
 * ✔️ Maquis du Mont Mouchet
 * ✔️ Maquis de Vabre
 * ✔️ Maquis (World War II)
 * ✔️ Medal of a liberated France
 * ✔️ Mémorial de la France combattante
 * ✔️ Milice
 * ✔️ Military history of France during World War II
 * ✔️ National Council of the Resistance
 * ✔️ National Front (French Resistance)
 * ✔️ Normandy landings
 * ✔️ Northern France Campaign (1944)
 * ✔️ Operation Astonia
 * ✔️ Operation Cobra
 * ✔️ Operation Dragoon
 * ✔️ Operation Overlord
 * ✔️ Operation Torch
 * ✔️ Operation Undergo
 * ✔️ Operation Wellhit
 * ✔️ Order of Liberation
 * ✔️ Organisation de résistance de l'armée
 * ✔️ People of Western Europe speech
 * ✔️ Philippe Kieffer
 * ✔️ Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque
 * ✔️ Philippe Pétain
 * ✔️ Pierre Laval
 * ✔️ Provisional Government of the French Republic
 * ✔️ Pursuit of Nazi collaborators
 * ✔️ Radio Londres
 * ✔️ Raoul Nordling
 * ✔️ Rape during the liberation of France
 * ✔️ Résistance-Fer
 * ✔️ Route of the 2nd Armoured Division
 * ✔️ Saint-Nazaire
 * ✔️ Siege of Dunkirk (1944–45)
 * ✔️ Senegalese Tirailleurs
 * ✔️ The Shaved Woman of Chartres
 * ✔️ Siege of Dunkirk (1944–45)
 * ✔️ Sisley Huddleston
 * ✔️ Tanks in France
 * ✔️ Template:Liberation of France
 * ✔️ Tripartisme
 * ✔️ Vichy France
 * ✔️ Vive le Québec libre
 * ✔️ Western Front (World War II)
 * ✔️ World War II by country
 * ✔️ World War II in the Basque Country
 * ✔️ Zone libre

Some could be used in the "See also" section, as well. Mathglot (talk) 19:45, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Update: 'A' – Battle for Brest. Mathglot (talk) 03:28, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Checked off another 25 or so. Mathglot (talk) 08:27, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Pre-release

 * Handle sections needing expansion ❌ –  released to Mainspace anyway, marked sections with Expand section
 * consolidate &lt;ref>s to sfns.❌ – will have to be done after.

At release

 * ✔️ drop "Draft" cruft at top
 * ✔️ drop hidden text cruft
 * ✔️ de-orphan with three or four in-links from list
 * ✔️ use banner holder on this page, not the /sandbox version (which requires release)
 * convert Further links that target French articles, to Further ill

Post-release

 * ✔️ remove Draft categories template
 * add in-links but more needed
 * Talk page:
 * ✔️ Add copied and/or translated templates Gabon, et al. needed mostly done now (and ongoing; Mathglot (talk) 03:51, 4 February 2021 (UTC)